Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Wegians89

Shefwedfan wrote: »

And what does Connacht bring to the irfu?

Leinster, Munster and Ulster getting into the qtr and semi finals of the Heineken cup bring in huge sums of money. Losing players from those squads weaken their chances to qualify out of the groups and the revenue for the irfu

Yes Aki does great work in Connacht promoting the game and raising the profile but a home qtr brings in 1 mil to irfu

Would it not be in the irfu season interest to try have four provinces competing for quarters and semis? I personally think Ringrose should get a central contract but I also think bundee should. They’re the best 12 and 13 for Ireland. I don’t see an issue with three centers being on central contracts as they’re all World class/ very close to it.

Squidgy Black

I don't see what the big deal is. We'll have a number of players rolling off central contracts this year (Best and O'Brien already gone, Toner's likely to finish end of this season and assuming Kearney's won't be renewed) as well as Bowe and Payne's spot, and Jack McGrath's was due to finish up this year but I've no idea what way the IRFU worked that as there's no mention of an extension around the time he moved to Ulster.

There should be plenty of scope to give out new central contracts considering the number is kept to around 18 or so per world cup cycle

Shefwedfan

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I don't see what the big deal is. We'll have a number of players rolling off central contracts this year (Best and O'Brien already gone, Toner's likely to finish end of this season and assuming Kearney's won't be renewed) as well as Bowe and Payne's spot, and Jack McGrath's was due to finish up this year but I've no idea what way the IRFU worked that as there's no mention of an extension around the time he moved to Ulster.

There should be plenty of scope to give out new central contracts considering the number is kept to around 18 or so per season

We have pages and pages of throw out the old and bring in the new. Will Aki make another WC? Maybe, will he be a starter? Probably not

Should we give him a central contract and risk losing a young player who could?

Based on the comments since WC here then it’s a no

Personally as I have already said it should be a yes. Aki should be on central contract.....

I just am just questioning the logic of people on here......we have pages of gibberish in my opinion and now once it comes down to it they don’t care about WC or anything, just sign the player

As I have said numerous times, come 6 nations and 1 loss it will be the same....

JJJackal

Shefwedfan wrote: »

We have pages and pages of throw out the old and bring in the new. Will Aki make another WC? Maybe, will he be a starter? Probably not

Should we give him a central contract and risk losing a young player who could?

Based on the comments since WC here then it’s a no

Personally as I have already said it should be a yes. Aki should be on central contract.....

I just am just questioning the logic of people on here......we have pages of gibberish in my opinion and now once it comes down to it they don’t care about WC or anything, just sign the player

As I have said numerous times, come 6 nations and 1 loss it will be the same....

Aki has the potential to be in the next WC squad. Players like sexton, kearney, cronin, earls and healy will be 36plus. Bundee will have just turned 33

JJJackal

JJJackal wrote: »

Aki has the potential to be in the next WC squad. Players like sexton, kearney, cronin, earls and healy will be 36plus. Bundee will have just turned 33

Rory Best (c) Hooker 15 August 1982 (age 37) 124
Jonathan Sexton (vc) Fly-half 11 July 1985 (age 34) 88
Rob Kearney Fullback 26 March 1986 (age 33) 95
Sean Cronin Hooker 6 May 1986 (age 33) 72
Keith Earls Wing 2 October 1987 (age 32)
Cian Healy Prop 7 October 1987 (age 32)
John Ryan Prop 2 August 1988 (age 31)
David Kilcoyne Prop 14 December 1988 (age 30)
Conor Murray Scrum-half 20 April 1989 (age 30)
Peter O'Mahony (vc) Back row 17 September 1989 (age 30)
CJ Stander Back row 5 April 1990 (age 29)
Bundee Aki Centre 7 April 1990 (age 29)
Rhys Ruddock Back row 13 November 1990 (age 28)
Jordi Murphy Back row 22 April 1991 (aged 28)
Andrew Conway Fullback 11 July 1991 (age 28)

These are all of the current squad who are Bundees age or older. If you think Bundee will be too old in 2023 all these will be too. And maybe alot will be

Shefwedfan

JJJackal wrote: »

Aki has the potential to be in the next WC squad. Players like sexton, kearney, cronin, earls and healy will be 36plus. Bundee will have just turned 33

Did I say any of the above would make the next WC?

Did I say Aki wouldn’t? No

Will he be a starter? Hopefully not. I would hope in France 2023 we would have other options, hopefully Aki is still in squad mind you

JJJackal

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Did I say any of the above would make the next WC?

Did I say Aki wouldn’t? No

Will he be a starter? Hopefully not. I would hope in France 2023 we would have other options, hopefully Aki is still in squad mind you

Nope you didnt say any of the above. I was making an observation re age of players

Wegians89

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Did I say any of the above would make the next WC?

Did I say Aki wouldn’t? No

Will he be a starter? Hopefully not. I would hope in France 2023 we would have other options, hopefully Aki is still in squad mind you

Peter Robb and Tom Farrell center partnership 2023 x

Shefwedfan

Wegians89 wrote: »

Peter Robb and Tom Farrell center partnership 2023 x

Potentially who knows what will happen

Shefwedfan

JJJackal wrote: »

Nope you didnt say any of the above. I was making an observation re age of players

Sorry but it’s a silly observation....according to most Healy was dead and buried a number of years ago

Nobody can tell what will happen, if we look at current form then yes Aki should be on central contract

P.Walnuts

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Sorry but it’s a silly observation....according to most Healy was dead and buried a number of years ago

Nobody can tell what will happen, if we look at current form then yes Aki should be on central contract

It's also worth noting that forwards can go for a lot longer than backs, 33yr old prop is standard, a 33 yr old centre is getting on.

JJJackal

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Sorry but it’s a silly observation....according to most Healy was dead and buried a number of years ago

Nobody can tell what will happen, if we look at current form then yes Aki should be on central contract

I also didnt say any of them would be too old. I dont know

Dubinusa

Gameplan was foul. No attacking nous. JS didn't bring anything fresh into the rwc. It was the same one out runners. The pack was undercooked and our carriers received the ball whilst standing.
The faith shown in underperforming lads was bizarre, imo. Sexton had possibly his worst season/ year, Murray was awful. POM was a spectator and very worrying is the fact that our pack was bullied. It was a recurring sight this year, our lads getting physically mauled.
All if our eggs were in one small basket! The hope that Murray could regain some kind of form and that Sexton could be healthy and in form. It falls on JS. It was his squad, his game plan and ultimately, we were horse****.
He may be a good coach and our best, but the rwc was a disaster for him and us.
The understudy and fringe argument is unique, as in, could anyone else have played as poorly in the qf as the squad did?
We'll never know, but my opinion on JS and the rwc, is that he failed miserably, as did the players. I think that in Murray's case, JS was completely wrong. Murray was continuously poor all year and showed no sign of improvement. I think he should have been dropped.
Why the continued reluctance to sit lads, who are not up to scratch? It's not just the 9 and 10, other lads were poor too!
I think Farrell has a job on his hands. I think he's going to be a good coach and will get the team performing again. The 6nations will be a great start for him and I think we're going to go well.

JJJackal

Dubinusa wrote: »

Gameplan was foul. No attacking nous. JS didn't bring anything fresh into the rwc. It was the same one out runners. The pack was undercooked and our carriers received the ball whilst standing.
The faith shown in underperforming lads was bizarre, imo. Sexton had possibly his worst season/ year, Murray was awful. POM was a spectator and very worrying is the fact that our pack was bullied. It was a recurring sight this year, our lads getting physically mauled.
All if our eggs were in one small basket! The hope that Murray could regain some kind of form and that Sexton could be healthy and in form. It falls on JS. It was his squad, his game plan and ultimately, we were horse****.
He may be a good coach and our best, but the rwc was a disaster for him and us.
The understudy and fringe argument is unique, as in, could anyone else have played as poorly in the qf as the squad did?
We'll never know, but my opinion on JS and the rwc, is that he failed miserably, as did the players. I think that in Murray's case, JS was completely wrong. Murray was continuously poor all year and showed no sign of improvement. I think he should have been dropped.
Why the continued reluctance to sit lads, who are not up to scratch? It's not just the 9 and 10, other lads were poor too!
I think Farrell has a job on his hands. I think he's going to be a good coach and will get the team performing again. The 6nations will be a great start for him and I think we're going to go well.

Another point I made previous which is proven now is Joey Carberry was injured for the whole WC - now out for months recovering. A not fully fit and definitely not in form Johnny Sexton and an injured Carberry as 2/3rds of our out halfes - has to be an error. You could carry one for a few games but 2?

Shefwedfan

JJJackal wrote: »

Another point I made previous which is proven now is Joey Carberry was injured for the whole WC - now out for months recovering. A not fully fit and definitely not in form Johnny Sexton and an injured Carberry as 2/3rds of our out halfes - has to be an error. You could carry one for a few games but 2?

Take the NZ match out because everyone had a poor game

When Ireland looked anyway decent who was the 10 playing?

JJJackal

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Take the NZ match out because everyone had a poor game

When Ireland looked anyway decent who was the 10 playing?

Johnny Sexton (not Joey Carberry) - the team is built around JS

We were never leaving JS at home (nor should we have) - but why bring JC; surely another option who was fit and could potentially contribute would be better. Gary Ringrose was our sub out-half for one game If memory serves

molloyjh

JJJackal wrote: »

Johnny Sexton (not Joey Carberry) - the team is built around JS

We were never leaving JS at home (nor should we have) - but why bring JC; surely another option who was fit and could potentially contribute would be better. Gary Ringrose was our sub out-half for one game If memory serves

Who would we bring? Ross Byrne? Carty showed that other than some nice individual skills, he simply was miles off what we needed at 10. So what could any other 10 have brought to the table exactly?

Riskymove

molloyjh wrote: »

Who would we bring?

I think the point is - someone who was actually fit

WeleaseWoderick

I think apart from Paul Kimmage, I might be the only person reading Jamie Heaslip's book at the moment. There's nothing too groundbreaking in it but the section discussing Stuart Lancaster is pretty eyeopening and might actually give some weight to the recent suggestions that the Leinster players were more comfortable playing to his gameplan than Joe's.

Paraphrasing but one line in particular stood out. "Joe made me a better pro, but Stuart made me a better player". He also describes Lancaster's coaching style as an evolution of Joe's.

Wegians89

molloyjh wrote: »

Who would we bring? Ross Byrne? Carty showed that other than some nice individual skills, he simply was miles off what we needed at 10. So what could any other 10 have brought to the table exactly?

I think that’s the fundamental issue, what we needed at 10 was a fully fit and firing Sexton, the game plan wouldn’t work for any other ten in the country. Even carbery didn’t look great when he was playing. Farrell needs a game plan that can adapt when different players come in. Sexton is a unique talent at ten and there really aren’t many similar in the world.

Ross Byrne is probably the most similar in style but he’s just not good enough for international rugby. Then you have carbery, carty, burns and even Harry Byrne who I think will be the one in a year or two who all play a more expansive game than what Sexton was doing for Ireland

blinding

What’s the Drug Taking situation in World Rugby ?

Would some of our competition be somewhat more lax on checking for Drugs ?

Shefwedfan

Carbery was brought because they expected the injury to clear up, hindsight is a great thing

It didn’t clear up so he wasn’t fully fit.

Sexton played well when on the field

I won’t discuss the other option, I think people know my view on that subject

Shefwedfan

Wegians89 wrote: »

I think that’s the fundamental issue, what we needed at 10 was a fully fit and firing Sexton, the game plan wouldn’t work for any other ten in the country. Even carbery didn’t look great when he was playing. Farrell needs a game plan that can adapt when different players come in. Sexton is a unique talent at ten and there really aren’t many similar in the world.

Ross Byrne is probably the most similar in style but he’s just not good enough for international rugby. Then you have carbery, carty, burns and even Harry Byrne who I think will be the one in a year or two who all play a more expansive game than what Sexton was doing for Ireland

Carbery slotted in at 10 a number of times for Ireland and went well. The Italy match when he picked up the injury he was great

So I don’t get the game plan only suited Sexton. Sexton came off after how many mins v Scotland and Carbery ran the show

sydthebeat

blinding wrote: »

What’s the Drug Taking situation in World Rugby ?

Would some of our competition be somewhat more lax on checking for Drugs ?

drugs testing isnt done by "our competition"

its done by independent bodies.

blinding

sydthebeat wrote: »

drugs testing isnt done by "our competition"

its done by independent bodies.

Is it comprehensively done in all Countries ( well, top tier countries )

Some of our competitors almost look a different species physique wise .

sydthebeat

blinding wrote: »

Is it comprehensively done in all Countries ( well, top tier countries )

Some of our competitors almost look a different species physique wise .

is it comprehensively done here?

molloyjh

Wegians89 wrote: »

I think that’s the fundamental issue, what we needed at 10 was a fully fit and firing Sexton, the game plan wouldn’t work for any other ten in the country.

I'm not so sure about that. Both Carbery and Jackson have both performed well with Ireland in the past. I think it's just a symptom of limited resources. We just dont have enough 10s at the requisite level. Taking the shot on Carberys fitness was probably the right call IMO. I'd agree Ross Byrne isn't at international level, so bringing him was never going to work out. At least we had a shot with Carbery.

jacothelad

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Take the NZ match out because everyone had a poor game

When Ireland looked anyway decent who was the 10 playing?

I think the truth is that most players had patches of good play. In the warm ups v. Wales - especially the second game and in the opener v. Scotland there were signs of things returning to what we would have regarded as normal form. Even in the first 20 minutes v. Japan while a bit 'scratchy' i didn't see anything to really worry overmuch. I think one of the turning points in that game was when we were awarded a penalty that was in a great position to kick to touch for a maul over and Carty had a rush of blood and kicked the ball away.


It was like someone had punctured the balloon after that and Ireland never patched the leak and reinflated the side again.


There were shades of 2007 in the lack of energy shown. Hanging the blame on Murray and Sexton is incorrect. They suffered from the same malaise as everyone else but it wasn't for want of trying. Some of the daft things that were done - like bringing Carbery, nor bringing Toner etc were probably all part of the equation.



Accelerated evolution is needed which consigns the past to the past, not rash and hasty revolution. Sexton for example is clearly still the best 10. Some guys are replaceable, some are still competitive. e.g. Earls is still a top class wing. The upcoming 6 Nations is still a competition and one which Ireland needs to attempt to win by fielding our best side - whatever that is...........there is £££££££££££££££££ at stake. We need the cash.

JJJackal

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Carbery was brought because they expected the injury to clear up, hindsight is a great thing

It didn’t clear up so he wasn’t fully fit.

Sexton played well when on the field

I won’t discuss the other option, I think people know my view on that subject

Hindsight is great. But Sexton was not fully fit and Carbery was injured.

Not only did Carbery's injury not clear up but the limited part he played probably made it worse as he is out now for some weeks or months

JJJackal

molloyjh wrote: »

I'm not so sure about that. Both Carbery and Jackson have both performed well with Ireland in the past. I think it's just a symptom of limited resources. We just dont have enough 10s at the requisite level. Taking the shot on Carberys fitness was probably the right call IMO. I'd agree Ross Byrne isn't at international level, so bringing him was never going to work out. At least we had a shot with Carbery.

Irish 10s:

Sexton, Carbery, Carty, Byrne, Byrne, Bleyndaal, Hanrahan, Johnston, Curtis, Burns, Madigan, Jackson, Keatley, Gareth Steenson (getting on no doubt)

Callum Sheedy might have played for Ireland if offered a World Cup slot or not (not familiar with his exact situation)

There are alot of good 10s there - only one Sexton no doubt, but alot with not much difference between them