Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

salmocab

gilberto_eire wrote: »

Is Billy Burns not English born and raised?... why are we picking him?.
That brings the project player to new levels unless I'm missing something here 😕

He’s not a project player and if he was it wouldn’t be any new level anyway.

awec

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The call after the WC was to pick young and in form players

First camp, players out of form get dropped and it starts!!!

I though Nordi myself would have done enough but any of the rest of the calls seem ok in my eyes. Personally I wouldn't have brought in Toner

In regards to the back row, it is clear the options at the WC was not good enough. So yes I think they need to look at what to do, back row is critical to Ireland.....

What has started? Nobody seems to be complaining, just highlighting a few players who can count themselves unlucky and a few surprising inclusions.

Lot's of things interesting about this.

Here is Joe's first six nations squad.

Rodney Ah You (Buccaneers/Connacht)*

Stephen Archer (Cork Constitution/Munster)

Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)

Robin Copeland (Cardiff Blues)*

Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)

Robbie Diack (Malone/Ulster)*

Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)

Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster)

Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster)

Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster)

Rob Herring (Ballinahinch/Ulster)*

David Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster)

Mike McCarthy (Leinster)

Jack McGrath (St. Mary's College/Leinster)

Martin Moore (Lansdowne/Leinster)*

Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster)*

Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster)

Tommy O'Donnell (UL Bohemians/Munster)

Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)

Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)

Rhys Ruddock (St Mary's College/Leinster)

Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster)

Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster)

Damian Varley (Garryowen/Munster)

Backs (20)

Isaac Boss (Terenure College/Leinster)

Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)

Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)

Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)

Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock College/Leinster)

Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)

Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster)

Felix Jones (Shannon/Munster)

David Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster)

Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)

Ian Keatley (Young Munster/Munster)

Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster)

Kieran Marmion (Corinthians/Connacht)*

Luke Marshall (Ballymena/Ulster)

Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)

Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)

Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster)

Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)

Jonathan Sexton (Racing Metro 92)

Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)

Jordi Murphy, Kieron Marmion and Jack Carty the biggest three casualties.

Marmion's exclusion has been continuously perplexing. Has something off the pitch happened here?

Question: Does Andy Farrell have a Lancaster coached bias?

That backrow selection is eyebrow raising.

connemara man

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Jordi Murphy, Kieron Marmion and Jack Carty the biggest three casualties.

Marmion's exclusion has been continuously perplexing. Has something off the pitch happened here?

Yeah he's currently injured won't be fit for the camp in any way and has played 80 minutes of rugby in total if say all season

Felix Jones is God.

thomond2006 wrote: »

Beirne's absence is definitely injury related. We'll know more later in the week but I can't see him playing for months.

He has a broken ankle, surgery required...could be 3-4 months before he's back is my guess

connemara man

connemara man wrote: »

Yeah he's currently injured won't be fit for the camp in any way and has played 80 minutes of rugby in total if say all season

Maybe.

He was the Irish number 2 for a long time. He was the biggest surprise omission for the world cup for me (Toner second). He isn't even brought into camp when two unfit outhalves are? For the first camp of a new coach?

I dunno. I think he is a ferociously competitive and hard working player and I'd have him in the squad in a heartbeat. But he's out of the picture at the moment.

salmocab

It’s a one day get together I wouldn’t read too much into anything really. I’d say RK is done but I doubt even he was surprised by that. It looks to me like a mixture of one eye on the 6N and one on the future.

Shefwedfan

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe.

He was the Irish number 2 for a long time. He was the biggest surprise omission for the world cup for me (Toner second). He isn't even brought into camp when two unfit outhalves are? For the first camp of a new coach?

I dunno. I think he is a ferociously competitive and hard working player and I'd have him in the squad in a heartbeat. But he's out of the picture at the moment.

Marmion didnt get in WC squad and hasn't really played for Connacht since. Why is everyone so shocked at his exclusion?



It would be more shocking if he was included and Blade was left out.

Stout Warrior

I think Farrell has shown what he’s going for in his second row and centre selections. Big physical players that can match teams like England and France in a slug fest. Roux, Kleyne, Aki, Farrell and McCloskey are all big men. Might be an indicator to how he plans to play going forward and I think something that’s overdue.

Surprised Marshall has been left out. Exceptional distributor from boot and hand and one of the best defensive midfielders in Ireland.

prawnsambo

Deleted User wrote: »

Surprised Marshall has been left out. Exceptional distributor from boot and hand and one of the best defensive midfielders in Ireland.

Are you trolling awec?

bilston

Deleted User wrote: »

Surprised Marshall has been left out. Exceptional distributor from boot and hand and one of the best defensive midfielders in Ireland.

Me too, especially when you look at the other centres...it maybe suggests that Addison is being seen mainly as a centre?

bilston

prawnsambo wrote: »

Are you trolling awec?

None of what he says is incorrect!

Although his passing can sometimes be off

prawnsambo

prawnsambo wrote: »

Are you trolling awec?

If I'm posting on boards then take it that I'm trolling awec

bilston wrote: »

Me too, especially when you look at the other centres...it maybe suggests that Addison is being seen mainly as a centre?

Marshall was unbelievable on the 2016 South Africa tour. I was certain he would push on from there but he seems to suffer from loss in form and has been injury prone.

Looks at his best at the moment though and he's been exceptional at Ulster.

I like it, good to see him bringing in guys with potential.

Shefwedfan

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If I'm posting on boards then take it that I'm trolling awec



Marshall was unbelievable on the 2016 South Africa tour. I was certain he would push on from there but he seems to suffer from loss in form and has been injury prone.

Looks at his best at the moment though and he's been exceptional at Ulster.

We have Farrell, Henshaw, Aki and Ringrose from the WC. Marshall is a good player and great to see him back playing after the head injuries but I don’t see him as any better than the 4 mentioned above

Maybe if Henshaw didn’t have a good game last week but he did

ionadnapokot

bilston wrote: »

None of what he says is incorrect!

Although his passing can sometimes be off

Sometimes!?

prawnsambo

bilston wrote: »

None of what he says is incorrect!

Although his passing can sometimes be off

There it is...


Awec was the first to point out (to me anyway) his wobbly passing on the hoof. Once seen, never forgotten.

Larbre34

This is quite evidently a form squad. So long as Farrell keeps picking that way, he'll get no complaints from me.

Stout Warrior

Stout Warrior wrote: »

Bingo

He's 4 starts and 1 sub appearance. You do need to look harder if you think he might have only played 1 match so far.

Admittedly though it's a bit of a surprise he's there. Has only played 10 times for Leinster. I really don't expect him to feature for Ireland this season but it's a good signal that if you play well it won't go unnoticed and that he's a guy with the potential to go on and be good enough to play for Ireland.

Doris I think/hope does have a chance of playing for Ireland this season. The guy is absolute quality. Hopefully it's obvious to Farrell as everyone else that POM/Stander at 6/8 isn't cutting it.

kingofthekong

Deleted User wrote: »

Question: Does Andy Farrell have a Lancaster coached bias?

That backrow selection is eyebrow raising.

Think hes picking the best players with the most potential, not sur Jordi adds a whole lot more than any of the guys listed

awec

prawnsambo wrote: »

There it is...


Awec was the first to point out (to me anyway) his wobbly passing on the hoof. Once seen, never forgotten.

Yea, his passing can be dodgy, sometimes hilariously bad.

Marshall is a great player, could definitely play at test level, but I'd not see him as a regular test player.

kingofthekong

Granny15 wrote: »

I'd say Conners is in there to have a Leinster balance to the backrow and the fact he's a specialist 7.

Anything I've seen from him doesn't shout international standard yet.

Deegan can count himself very lucky to be ahead of Jack O'Donoghhue and Jordi Murphy.

Nothing Ive seen from Jack O'donoghue in the last 2 years would scream international standard either ---just because hes been around longer doesnt give him any rite to squad selection over Connors, Connors put in an outstanding performance in a MOM performance away to Glasgow which screamed potential world class to me and obviously it has to the ireland coaches aswell

kingofthekong

Dubinusa wrote: »

No luke marshall. He's been flying. So far this season I would rate him just behind Ringeose.
Interesting selections, Connors and Deegan. Obviously both are talented and will have some type of future roles.

He also makes a lot of errors and loses the ball quite often, also has been found wanting in some of his distribution

aloooof

kingofthekong wrote: »

Nothing Ive seen from Jack O'donoghue in the last 2 years would scream international standard either ---just because hes been around longer doesnt give him any rite to squad selection over Connors, Connors put in an outstanding performance in a MOM performance away to Glasgow which screamed potential world class to me and obviously it has to the ireland coaches aswell

He was injured for ~10 months of those 2 years. How much of JOD have you seen this season, out of interest?

Granny15

kingofthekong wrote: »

Nothing Ive seen from Jack O'donoghue in the last 2 years would scream international standard either ---just because hes been around longer doesnt give him any rite to squad selection over Connors, Connors put in an outstanding performance in a MOM performance away to Glasgow which screamed potential world class to me and obviously it has to the ireland coaches aswell

Potential world class? Off the back of one performance in a Leinster B team? Sure we have to give players opportunities to show what they can do but he would need to be hitting and populating a lot more rucks for me to consider him near world class. Personally I don't think he has the engine necessary for a world class 7 yet (and you will note i said yet in the post you quoted).

He had a high tackle count in that game - 24 i think - hitting VDF levels but he didn't get any where near that in his other games i am guessing. To be near VDF or world class levels he needs to focus on the competition in front of him and not have people overhyping him online after one admittedly good performance.

stephen_n

aloooof wrote: »

He was injured for ~10 months of those 2 years. How much of JOD have you seen this season, out of interest?

I suspect that’s a bit of home team bias from them. Of the limited viewing I have seen of JOD he is going very well this season. As Murray Kinsella likes to point out, he’s probably the best in the country at disrupting opposition mauls and has a huge work rate. Don’t see enough of him to know for sure but he seems more of a 6.5 than a 7 though.

Bazzo

Granny15 wrote: »

Potential world class? Off the back of one performance in a Leinster B team? Sure we have to give players opportunities to show what they can do but he would need to be hitting and populating a lot more rucks for me to consider him near world class. Personally I don't think he has the engine necessary for a world class 7 yet (and you will note i said yet in the post you quoted).

He had a high tackle count in that game - 24 i think - hitting VDF levels but he didn't get any where near that in his other games i am guessing. To be near VDF or world class levels he needs to focus on the competition in front of him and not have people overhyping him online after one admittedly good performance.

He had 48 tackles in 2 matches I think. I think he's probably still a bit fortunate to be there but Farrell obviously likes the look of him

Whether Connors or JOD makes the squad really doesn't matter a toss anyway, there are far more pressing issues for the management. Changing the overall style of play, making changes to to the actual starting XV, etc.

aloooof

Malakai Some Revolution wrote: »

Whether Connors or JOD makes the squad really doesn't matter a toss anyway, there are far more pressing issues for the management. Changing the overall style of play, making changes to to the actual starting XV, etc.

I thought with Jordi not selected as well that JOD may have been a decent option to cover all the backrow positions. But agreed, I wouldn't have expected either of them to start a 6 Nations match in any case.

Yeah_Right

I think the reason so many of the young Leinster loose forwards were selected was to give Nucifora more ammunition when he tries to encourage them to move to another province. Point out that they're on the radar for the national team but they need to be playing more regularly.

He could then point to Nordi as an example of how this worked.... ah. Bugger.

salmocab

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I think the reason so many of the young Leinster loose forwards were selected was to give Nucifora more ammunition when he tries to encourage them to move to another province. Point out that they're on the radar for the national team but they need to be playing more regularly.

He could then point to Nordi as an example of how this worked.... ah. Bugger.

Or Jack mc Grath.

AbusesToilets

salmocab wrote: »

Or Jack mc Grath.

How's his form this season? Any improvement?

AbusesToilets

AbusesToilets wrote: »

How's his form this season? Any improvement?

Seemed to be playing OK but got injured and has been out for a while now.

kingofthekong

aloooof wrote: »

He was injured for ~10 months of those 2 years. How much of JOD have you seen this season, out of interest?

Seen all of Munsters games this season

kingofthekong

Granny15 wrote: »

Potential world class? Off the back of one performance in a Leinster B team? Sure we have to give players opportunities to show what they can do but he would need to be hitting and populating a lot more rucks for me to consider him near world class. Personally I don't think he has the engine necessary for a world class 7 yet (and you will note i said yet in the post you quoted).

He had a high tackle count in that game - 24 i think - hitting VDF levels but he didn't get any where near that in his other games i am guessing. To be near VDF or world class levels he needs to focus on the competition in front of him and not have people overhyping him online after one admittedly good performance.

Actually he did hit those numbers consecutively, 48 tackles over 2 games, none missed the key point though is most were dominant attack disrupting hits vs just tackles, His performance eclipsed anything JOD has done in about 2/3 years - so the coaches have obviously seen more potential and have picked accordingly

I've seen all of Munsters games this season, also saw him get done for 2 tries at the end of the munster sarries game, slow off the base and didnt shut vunipola down, then slow off the base off a ruck for the second Farrel I dont think wants to see that in his six nations side

Granny15

kingofthekong wrote: »

Actually he did hit those numbers consecutively, 48 tackles over 2 games, none missed the key point though is most were dominant attack disrupting hits vs just tackles, His performance eclipsed anything JOD has done in about 2/3 years - so the coaches have obviously seen more potential and have picked accordingly

I've seen all of Munsters games this season, also saw him get done for 2 tries at the end of the munster sarries game, slow off the base and didnt shut vunipola down, then slow off the base off a ruck for the second Farrel I dont think wants to see that in his six nations side

Jack O'Donoghue may have gotten done from 2 of the best players in world rugby but you can't seriously be saying Conners has better wheels than him. Laboured at best is what I would say of Connerrs getting around the field. Struggles to rejoin the line after tackle has been made. He strikes me as very gangly/laboured. He should be focusing on his primary task of hitting rucks rather than getting tackle stats up also.

The reliance to tackle stats reminds me of an old Lord of the Rings reference where Elrond and Gimli are in competition for the numbers of people they kill. 114 115 116 says Elrond striking another arrow into his foes. Similarly some posters on here think it's the stat that is the be all and end all. Win the war first then worry about your stats.

sydthebeat

Granny15 wrote: »

Jack O'Donoghue may have gotten done from 2 of the best players in world rugby but you can't seriously be saying Conners has better wheels than him. Laboured at best is what I would say of Connerrs getting around the field. Struggles to rejoin the line after tackle has been made. He strikes me as very gangly/laboured. He should be focusing on his primary task of hitting rucks rather than getting tackle stats up also.

The reliance to tackle stats reminds me of an old Lord of the Rings reference where Elrond and Gimli are in competition for the numbers of people they kill. 114 115 116 says Elrond striking another arrow into his foes. Similarly some posters on here think it's the stat that is the be all and end all. Win the war first then worry about your stats.

so much wrong with this post it makes me cry !!!! :eek::eek::eek:

thegreycity

Granny15 wrote: »

The reliance to tackle stats reminds me of an old Lord of the Rings reference where Elrond and Gimli are in competition for the numbers of people they kill. 114 115 116 says Elrond striking another arrow into his foes. Similarly some posters on here think it's the stat that is the be all and end all. Win the war first then worry about your stats.

Ah that crazy pair, Elrond and Gimli. I've learned so much about rugby stats from them.

the baby bull elephant

Will Connors who was a part of Ireland 7s is of course very laboured around the pitch.

aloooof

kingofthekong wrote: »

I've seen all of Munsters games this season

In which case, which games do you think he's played well in?

kingofthekong wrote: »

also saw him get done for 2 tries at the end of the munster sarries game, slow off the base and didnt shut vunipola down, then slow off the base off a ruck for the second Farrel I dont think wants to see that in his six nations side

Connors hasn't come up against anyone of the calibre of Vunipola so far so it's not a like-for-like comparison.

In any case it's incredibly harsh to be pinning both tries on JOD. (He tackled Vunipola in the sequence before the first try that nearly produced a turnover).

But especially for the second, I don't see how you can blame him there at all. He was defending under the posts at a ruck. Mako scored at the other side of the post on the outside shoulder of (I think) LOC. Far more blame to go to LOC and possibly Billy Holland. JOD's speed off the base wasn't the cause of that try.

kingofthekong

aloooof wrote: »

In which case, which games do you think he's played well in?



Connors hasn't come up against anyone of the calibre of Vunipola so far so it's not a like-for-like comparison.

In any case it's incredibly harsh to be pinning both tries on JOD. (He tackled Vunipola in the sequence before the first try that nearly produced a turnover).

But especially for the second, I don't see how you can blame him there at all. He was defending under the posts at a ruck. Mako scored at the other side of the post on the outside shoulder of (I think) LOC. Far more blame to go to LOC and possibly Billy Holland. JOD's speed off the base wasn't the cause of that try.

Played well in most but nothing which would suggest he should be playing a higher level of rugby, Connors in his two appearances has imo.

Fair enough, but still - he'll be playing guys like that in the six nations and autumn internationals and didnt pass the test.

kingofthekong

Granny15 wrote: »

Jack O'Donoghue may have gotten done from 2 of the best players in world rugby but you can't seriously be saying Conners has better wheels than him. Laboured at best is what I would say of Connerrs getting around the field. Struggles to rejoin the line after tackle has been made. He strikes me as very gangly/laboured. He should be focusing on his primary task of hitting rucks rather than getting tackle stats up also.

The reliance to tackle stats reminds me of an old Lord of the Rings reference where Elrond and Gimli are in competition for the numbers of people they kill. 114 115 116 says Elrond striking another arrow into his foes. Similarly some posters on here think it's the stat that is the be all and end all. Win the war first then worry about your stats.

Not sure i have time to address the amount wrong in this post, anyway in a few weeks we'll see them both head to head - that should clarify things

aloooof

kingofthekong wrote: »

Played well in most but nothing which would suggest he should be playing a higher level of rugby, Connors in his two appearances has imo.

Fair enough, but still - he'll be playing guys like that in the six nations and autumn internationals and didnt pass the test.

There'll be plenty of international level players won't pass the test against Billy Vunipola this season, tbh. He's amongst (if not the) best players in the world at the moment. And as I said, I really don't see how you're blaming him for the 2nd try.

Imo, a fair comparison between Connors and JOD would be the weekend of their Glasgow and Edinburgh games respectively, which were on the same weekend.

The both got MOTM.
Connors got 24 tackles to JOD's 16.
Connors had 9 runs for 12m to JOD's 9 runs for 38m.

In any case, it's not that big a deal; I don't expect to see either start come the 6 Nations.

theVersatile

One day people will learn to appreciate two players, instead of talking down one to big up the other. Connors has exceptional tackling stats gan dabht - but JOD is a far superior ball carrier and his maul work has become something which sets him apart from the rest. Personally I'd say that given the amount of discussion about balancing the backrow and taking ball carrying load off of CJ, I would've thought that JOD would've been a better choice than Connors - but I'm not going to lie to myself and say Connors is bad to justify that.

Mind blooding in a seven when there aren't too many around the place (JVDF and Leavy aside, your next choice 7s are all guys which aren't really specialist sevens such as POM, TOD, Nordi) isn't a bad idea. The next senior specialist seven I can think of (mind I'm quite forgetful) is probably Cloete - once he becomes IQ; with Penny fighting Connors for the young gun position in the depth chart.

The few games Connors has played is also a very small sample size. JJ had a great four or five game spell earlier in the season but fizzled out over the last few weeks. One would want to wait a bit before throwing Connors into the fire - but Farrell must see something big in him.

Buer

Jesus Christ. The seasonal dick measuring contest is in full swing right on time. Neither JOD nor Connors have a sniff of being involved in the 6N. It's a seasonal training camp. It's an opportunity to integrate some guys who have really impressed and will potentially be involved in the future given we are at the beginning of a new phase for the national team.

The bloke who is very fortunate to be there ahead of the likes of Murphy or JOD is Max Deegan but, again, it's an investment in the future.

Henry Ford III

At least Kearney has at last been jettisoned. He's 18 months past his sell by date.

Faugheen

Henry Ford III wrote: »

At least Kearney has at last been jettisoned. He's 18 months past his sell by date.

A clear lie but no harm getting the hyperbole in there.