Ireland Versus New Zealand Build Up Thread

Really looking forward to this now. Can Irish players that are past their prime dig deep and pull a big performance out of the bag? Will NZ's inexperience be exposed?

It's a real clash of styles. Safe, proven selection and playing style vs high risk/high reward selection and playing style. One team trying to play rugby, the other trying to stop them from playing.

Tomtom364

Tomtom364 wrote: »

People give POM this kinda stick all the time.
Usually the excuse given to write off his outstanding performances ala November '18 all blacks win as him only having singular stand out performances on these types of occasions

Surely if that reason to write him off regularly is true then this is exact the game you would then actually want him in...

He needs a big game. Murray and Sexton got a lot of stick for our dip in form but POM has yet to show that return to form.

sydthebeat

Basil3 wrote: »

Really looking forward to this now. Can Irish players that are past their prime dig deep and pull a big performance out of the bag? Will NZ's inexperience be exposed?

It's a real clash of styles. Safe, proven selection and playing style vs high risk/high reward selection and playing style. One team trying to play rugby, the other trying to stop them from playing.

Were we trying to stop you playing rugby while we put 40 points on ye in Chicago?

pc7

I don't care if it is the most boring, dull as dishwater, snoozefest (I doubt it will be any of these things), playing with arms tied behind us, once we win! The media, Steve, Stuart, Eddie Jones et al can moan away. Come on Ireland!!

Still feeling worryingly positive!

Niallof9

I think it was all an elaborate plot. We can do it. Like was Henshaw really injured!

FrancieBrady

sydthebeat wrote: »

Were we trying to stop you playing rugby while we put 40 points on ye in Chicago?

It's like Pat Spillane in the GAA, 'please stand back and let us play the beautiful game'.

Yeh right Pat!

sydthebeat

sydthebeat wrote: »

Were we trying to stop you playing rugby while we put 40 points on ye in Chicago?

That match has about as much relevance as the All Blacks beating you 60-0 a few years ago. The Irish game will be based around defensive patterns and controlling the ball when in possession. They will not take risks in attack, because they know any errors could be capitalised on.

I could be completely wrong, but I doubt it. Schmidt's selection says as much.

Of course, they still have every chance of beating the AB's.

dregin

So excited for this, I jumped straight to the weekend and thought today was Friday. Ireland by 10. John Hayes to come out of retirement for the semi and score a hat trick. Sploosh.

ironingbored

Watching the Nov-2018 test again.

First 10 minutes Toner our best player.

thebaz

no real surprises in team , delighted Ruddock made the bench - POM must deliver the game of his life , and prove his doubters wrong (big game too from Robbie H - in fact big game from everyone) - if we can live with the All Blacks for for first 20 , get in ther faces and dictate the game to them , we can do it , if All Blacks run in a couple of early tries and we are chasing the game , it will be a long day.

FrancieBrady

thebaz wrote: »

no real surprises in team , delighted Ruddock made the bench - POM must deliver the game of his life , and prove his doubters wrong (big game too from Robbie H - in fact big game from everyone) - if we can live with the All Blacks for for first 20 , get in ther faces and dictate the game to them , we can do it , if All Blacks run in a couple of early tries and we are chasing the game , it will be a long day.

Yep. First 20 minutes are critical.
We will know very quickly if we are in with a shout.

sydthebeat

i much prefer Robbie Henshaw protecting Ringroses inside shoulder in this game than Aki.

Bundee has shown that he can be caught focusing too much on the inside, either to make a dominant hit, or simply getting caught blitzing when the rest of the back line are drifting. Ringrose and henshaw have a good understanding in there, and garry has no issue trusting robbie on his inside.
Thats vitally important when playing against this AB backline with BB at 15.
BB often pops up between the 12 and 13 as either a strike runner or as a second play maker.
Often Mounga actually skips his 12 to get the ball straight to BB, and in turn BB skips the 13 to get the ball straight to the wing.
When that happens we need a very fluid, vocal and trusting center partnership... and i think we have the best one starting.

sydthebeat

sydthebeat wrote: »

i much prefer Robbie Henshaw protecting ringroses inside shoulder in this game than Aki.

Bundee has shown that he can be caught focusing too much on the inside, either to make a dominant hit, or simply getting caught blitzing when the rest of the back line are drifting. Ringroe and henshaw have a good understanding in there, and garry has no issue trusting robbie on his inside.
Thats vitally important when playing aginst this AB backline with BB at 15.
BB often pops up between the 12 and 13 as either a strike runner or as a second play maker.
Often Mounga actually skips his 12 to get the ball straight to BB, and in turn BB skips teh 13 to get the ball straight to the wing.
When that happens we need a very fluid, vocal and trusting center partnership... and i think we have the best one starting.

The midfield is a fascinating one. What do Ireland do if something happens to Henshaw or Ringrose? Who will slot into the centres?

On top of this, you're probably going to have a fresh Sonny Bill coming onto the pitch for the All Blacks in the second half against a guy who has hardly played the last few months, and will surely be feeling the pinch.

Niallof9

This is going to be so tough. Best of luck to the players, i hope there is no trees left at their training base.

15 as expected. There will be no deviance from our usual gameplan and its going to be a bloody war.

Jack Goodhue, Reece, Bridge we shouldn't fear players like that. Still learning the ropes etc.

Target Reece at will.

Like good players but lets not kid ourselves, they aren't in the same league as Bunce, Umagu, Mauger, Smith..at least yet.

There is less to fear these days. Look at the sides in those days we were getting pumped by New Zealand. Its night and day.

We need the biggest games of their entire rugby lives from Murray,Kearney, POM, Henderson, Henshaw, Earls, Stander. All would have question marks from this past year either from injury or form.Sexton will sex. Our pack is mighty.

pc7

Niallof9 wrote: »

15 as expected. There will be no deviance from our usual gameplan and its going to be a bloody war.

Seriously I cannot freaking wait, really hope it lives up to the hype. It really is a 'dare to dream' moment for Irish Rugby fans. Lots of hurt over the years, time to break that hoodoo and get into a semi. I really am giddy.

Danthemanhere

Hey, some good chat here. On form, New Zealand will win eay but you'll never know. We need some players to step up and have the games of their lives. Like when we beat New Zealand before. O'Mahony was incredible. We need performances like that. It's like opposites meeting here. New Zealand are adventurous in attack and obviously in selection. Ireland are conservative in selection and game plan. Let's see who comes out on top.

Basil3

Basil3 wrote: »

The midfield is a fascinating one. What do Ireland do if something happens to Henshaw or Ringrose? Who will slot into the centres?

On top of this, you're probably going to have a fresh Sonny Bill coming onto the pitch for the All Blacks in the second half against a guy who has hardly played the last few months, and will surely be feeling the pinch.

Larmour has slotted in off the bench a few times

andymx11

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Larmour has slotted in off the bench a few times

But it will be Earls

sydthebeat

Basil3 wrote: »

The midfield is a fascinating one. What do Ireland do if something happens to Henshaw or Ringrose? Who will slot into the centres?

On top of this, you're probably going to have a fresh Sonny Bill coming onto the pitch for the All Blacks in the second half against a guy who has hardly played the last few months, and will surely be feeling the pinch.

like most of this kiwi team, SBW doesnt hold the frightening aura he once had.

This year he has been playing as a bosh merchant... averaging just 3.6 m per carry (the lowest of all your options by a good bit)

He is always likely to do something stupid, though coming from the bench he wont be as tired so less chance of a brain fart.

Im glad its not crotty and ALB we're facing, i think thats your best 12 / 13 combo. Goodhue has been ripping it up at club level but i dont think hes been put under any serious pressure yet at test level.

raclle

unpopular opinion but ive always been on the fence with Earls as he's got big mistakes in him.

Danthemanhere

Why isn't Farrell on the bench?

sydthebeat

Danthemanhere wrote: »

Why isn't Farrell on the bench?

because that would leave us with no back three cover.

larmour can cover 11, 14, 15 and 13 at a stretch

AdamD

Danthemanhere wrote: »

Hey, some good chat here. On form, New Zealand will win eay but you'll never know. We need some players to step up and have the games of their lives. Like when we beat New Zealand before. O'Mahony was incredible. We need performances like that. It's like opposites meeting here. New Zealand are adventurous in attack and obviously in selection. Ireland are conservative in selection and game plan. Let's see who comes out on top.

I know we're not showing up great but this current NZ side have showed nothing to suggest they should win easy on form either. Look through that list of names, it's not the vintage of the past.

WeleaseWoderick

Excited now that the teams are named. Saturday morning can't come soon enough!

I am becoming more and more confident the closer the game gets too. I think our pack has the ability to match theirs and agree with other posters that the NZ backline isn't of the same class (yet) of the 2011 or 2015 winning teams.

Only 3 changes to our starting 15 compared to the team that started against them in 2018 and arguably all are improvements (Murray for Marmion, Henshaw for Aki, and Henderson for Toner).

Form is something that is spoken about a lot but I feel we've been preparing for this game (albeit a couple of rounds sooner than hoped) for the past 2 years. The form of NZ has also quickly been forgotten with the win over South Africa. Prior to that, they had a pretty poor Rugby Championship and have only played Canada & Namibia since.

Niallof9

sydthebeat wrote: »

like most of this kiwi team, SBW doesnt hold the frightening aura he once had.

This year he has been playing as a bosh merchant... averaging just 3.6 m per carry (the lowest of all your options by a good bit)

He is always likely to do something stupid, though coming from the bench he wont be as tired so less chance of a brain fart.

Im glad its not crotty and ALB we're facing, i think thats your best 12 / 13 combo. Goodhue has been ripping it up at club level but i dont think hes been put under any serious pressure yet at test level.

Yeah if we take all blinkers off this team is nowhere near the teams of old imo. With Retallick only coming back, Savea, Smith at times, Barrett, Read (past it maybe?) how many bar those would be anywhere near the great New Zealand teams that regularly scared us at least one in three.

Most of the fear is coming from how we have performed not the hard cold realities. We have World Class players s they do. Reece, Goodhue, Bridge, Richie Mo'unga are all good but are they great..and how experienced are they?

My worry comes from the weight of history, tactics tiring us and our form..not necessarily personnel.Like they are clear favorites imo, but its because of other factors.

Danthemanhere

sydthebeat wrote: »

because that would leave us with no back three cover.

larmour can cover 11, 14, 15 and 13 at a stretch

Beirne can cover the back row. Risky but it's also risky starting Henshaw with only Larmour as his cover.

Danthemanhere

AdamD wrote: »

I know we're not showing up great but this current NZ side have showed nothing to suggest they should win easy on form either. Look through that list of names, it's not the vintage of the past.

They've only played 3 games in the World Cup, they've scored 157 points and conceded 22. We played 4 and only scored 121 and conceded 27. We've lost to Japan, they beat South Africa. Their form is far better than ours anyway.

aloooof

sydthebeat wrote: »

because that would leave us with no back three cover.

larmour can cover 11, 14, 15 and 13 at a stretch

He even slotted in at 12 against Samoa.

sydthebeat

sydthebeat wrote: »

because that would leave us with no back three cover.

larmour can cover 11, 14, 15 and 13 at a stretch

Ringrose and Carbery can cover those positions

thebaz

andymx11 wrote: »

But it will be Earls

I'm a massive Larmour fan , but if Henshaw goes off, would prefer Carberry to come in and play with 2 10's as such - Earls is not an international level centre - Carberry/Sexton may work , if we were forced into such

sydthebeat

Danthemanhere wrote: »

Beirne can cover the back row. Risky but it's also risky starting Henshaw with only Larmour as his cover.

Back three, not back row

Farrell doesn't provide any cover outside of 12 and 13....

Larmour has played at test level at every position from 12 to 15

aloooof

sydthebeat wrote: »

like most of this kiwi team, SBW doesnt hold the frightening aura he once had.

This year he has been playing as a bosh merchant... averaging just 3.6 m per carry (the lowest of all your options by a good bit)

He is always likely to do something stupid, though coming from the bench he wont be as tired so less chance of a brain fart.

Im glad its not crotty and ALB we're facing, i think thats your best 12 / 13 combo. Goodhue has been ripping it up at club level but i dont think hes been put under any serious pressure yet at test level.

I'd agree with alot of this. Also think BB has a mistake in him, particularly with his kicking. Tho I am worried about him with more space to work in, coming from FB. The guy is lightening and has carved us open in the past.

Danthemanhere

sydthebeat wrote: »

Back three, not back row

Farrell doesn't provide any cover outside of 12 and 13....

Larmour has played at test level at every position from 12 to 15

Beirne? He can cover the back row. We would be a forward sub down though. There really should be more subs, especially with all the concerns about player welfare.

aloooof

raclle wrote: »

unpopular opinion but ive always been on the fence with Earls as he's got big mistakes in him.

He's also got try saving tackles in him. The tracking back for Japan, Italy and the try saving one in the corner versus England, for example. He's footwork is also so good in tight spaces, he's brilliant at eeking out some yards.

D.Q

I wonder will NZ not having really played a match for a few weeks have any effect. Would be incredible if they came out like a team in pre-season. :pac::pac:

Niallof9

D.Q wrote: »

I wonder will NZ not having really played a match for a few weeks have any effect. Would be incredible if they came out like a team in pre-season. :pac::pac:

Yeah except for the Rugby Championships. Its really mid season for them. they had more bodies of games than Ireland. Our warm ups barely count. These were competitive matches.

andymx11

thebaz wrote: »

I'm a massive Larmour fan , but if Henshaw goes off, would prefer Carberry to come in and play with 2 10's as such - Earls is not an international level centre - Carberry/Sexton may work , if we were forced into such

Yea agreed but for some reason Joe mentions earls as centre cover so often. I think only last week he said Larmour is a back 3 player (not centre) and Earls can slot in there.

aloooof

Anyone have any ideas when Ireland last went into a game as 12 point underdogs? Guessing here, but I'd imagine it's probably that game that didn't happen in 2013?

evil_seed

sydthebeat wrote: »

i much prefer Robbie Henshaw protecting Ringroses inside shoulder in this game than Aki.

Bundee has shown that he can be caught focusing too much on the inside, either to make a dominant hit, or simply getting caught blitzing when the rest of the back line are drifting. Ringrose and henshaw have a good understanding in there, and garry has no issue trusting robbie on his inside.
Thats vitally important when playing against this AB backline with BB at 15.
BB often pops up between the 12 and 13 as either a strike runner or as a second play maker.
Often Mounga actually skips his 12 to get the ball straight to BB, and in turn BB skips the 13 to get the ball straight to the wing.
When that happens we need a very fluid, vocal and trusting center partnership... and i think we have the best one starting.

Henshaw is also a big fan of this

aloooof

aloooof wrote: »

Anyone have any ideas when Ireland last went into a game as 12 point underdogs? Guessing here, but I'd imagine it's probably that game that didn't happen in 2013?

Possibly Chicago

kilns

Tomtom364 wrote: »

People give POM this kinda stick all the time.
Usually the excuse given to write off his outstanding performances ala November '18 all blacks win as him only having singular stand out performances on these types of occasions

Surely if that reason to write him off regularly is true then this is exact the game you would then actually want him in...

Maybe due to the fact he is an average tackler, is slow and is a poor ball carrier has something to do with the criticism

Again he is lucky we are light in back row cover

raclle

aloooof wrote: »

He's also got try saving tackles in him. The tracking back for Japan, Italy and the try saving one in the corner versus England, for example. He's footwork is also so good in tight spaces, he's brilliant at eeking out some yards.

I hear ya but he tends to get sucked in a lot when ball goes out wide which NZ are notorious for.

AbusesToilets

raclle wrote: »

I hear ya but he tends to get sucked in a lot when ball goes out wide which NZ are notorious for.

Justiceforkeith has some examples of painful times against NZ previously. Earls has really impressed me over the last few seasons, wasn't a fan of his for a long time. Similarly to Kearney, he's stepped it up formwise as he gets closer to the end. I'd trust him to perform well on Sat.

aloooof

raclle wrote: »

I hear ya but he tends to get sucked in a lot when ball goes out wide which NZ are notorious for.

I actually think Earls' scramble is very good when teams get beyond the edge. I'd actually be more worried about Stockdale's shooting out of the line in those scenario's tbh. (Tho he did time a brilliant one against Scotland iirc).

Imo, Earls is often unheralded / underrated, but there's a reason he was players player of the year in 2018.

Clegg

I'm really looking forward to the head to heads between the centres. Ringrose and Lienert-Brown have been brilliant this tournament. Hope they both light it up again on Saturday.

prawnsambo

Muahahaha wrote: »

This is pretty much how I see it going. Provided we defend the inevitable opening blitz we should stay with them but around 65 mins they will pull away; its just what they do. Hope we put up a good showing but I cant see us winning, would be very happy to be wrong though but just feel for us to win absolutely everything has to go right, no butterfingers, no missed conversions or penalties, no loss of our own line outs and getting the bounce of the ball. We need everything going our way to pull it off and unfortunately that hasnt been happening of late.

I know it was Canada and they were 61 points up, but it struck me that NZ didn't pull away in the last 20 minutes. In fact they didn't score a single point in that time. All the above caveats apply of course, but it was a bit of a surprise how sloppy they were in that period. They almost conceded a try only for Peter Nelson straightening up instead of heading for the corner flag.

PhlegmyMoses

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Justiceforkeith has some examples of painful times against NZ previously. Earls has really impressed me over the last few seasons, wasn't a fan of his for a long time. Similarly to Kearney, he's stepped it up formwise as he gets closer to the end. I'd trust him to perform well on Sat.

My only real issue with Earls is that you never feel like he is going to catch fire in a big game and create things out of nothing in attack. A harsh criticism because he is fundamentally very good and he suits Schmidt's system, I just wish I had the confidence that he would run in a couple of tries out of nothing. I have more confidence in Stockdale in that regard

AbusesToilets

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

My only real issue with Earls is that you never feel like he is going to catch fire in a big game and create things out of nothing in attack. A harsh criticism because he is fundamentally very good and he suits Schmidt's system, I just wish I had the confidence that he would run in a couple of tries out of nothing. I have more confidence in Stockdale in that regard

I'd agree with that for the most part. He's one of the best finishers we have, I'd back him to score given half a yard. That said, for a player with his experience and skills, he doesn't feature much in attack off his wing. It's rare you'd see him being used to break the line off 10 or 12. Open to correction on that, that's my impression of him but can't say I've done any in depth study on it.

Earls can be deadly on the outside in broken play, and his pace is pretty amazing given his age profile.

andymx11

I don’t know why but I’m so optimistic that it’s unsettling...

A strong defensive effort - win penalties on the back of this and Sexton brings his kicking boots. I think a similar Scoreline to 2018 is on the cards.

Shefwedfan

Not sure if mentioned but I wonder is ROG giving the team some hints and tips. He was the coach of a lot of these players for 2 years. He has moved on and he has a good relationship with Joe......