Scottish independence

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

As the Duke of Wellington is reported to have said - Being born in a stable does not make you a horse.

Reported by nationalists who wanted to create division.

It was actually Daniel O’Connell that said it about him.

bob mcbob

bob mcbob wrote: »

Your argument seems to be that only the English born can be part of the English elite.

So this English elite, that includes not only Scots but people of Indian, Pakistani and Ghanaian heritage, won’t share power.

Gotcha.

Who won’t they share power with?

bob mcbob

Aegir wrote: »

So this English elite, that includes not only Scots but people of Indian, Pakistani and Ghanaian heritage, won’t share power.

Gotcha.

Who won’t they share power with?

Here is a government report on elitism

The research finds that power rests with a narrow section of the population - the 7% who attend private schools and 1% who graduate from Oxford and Cambridge. The report reveals a ‘pipeline’ from fee-paying schools through to Oxbridge and into top jobs. 52% of leading figures in some professions, for example, senior judges, came through this pathway, with an average of 17% across all top jobs. 39% of cabinet ministers, at the time of the analysis in Spring 2019, were independently educated.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/elitism-in-britain-2019

Does this answer the question?

bob mcbob

bob mcbob wrote: »

Here is a government report on elitism

The research finds that power rests with a narrow section of the population - the 7% who attend private schools and 1% who graduate from Oxford and Cambridge. The report reveals a ‘pipeline’ from fee-paying schools through to Oxbridge and into top jobs. 52% of leading figures in some professions, for example, senior judges, came through this pathway, with an average of 17% across all top jobs. 39% of cabinet ministers, at the time of the analysis in Spring 2019, were independently educated.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/elitism-in-britain-2019

Does this answer the question?

I know what Elitism is thanks and no, it doesn’t even come close to getting my point.

PommieBast

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

This is a perfect example of the "sticking it to the Brits" that I mentioned earlier

I am British (specifically southern Englander) myself, and I held similar views even before I emigrated 8-9 years ago.

BonnieSituation

PommieBast wrote: »

I am British (specifically southern Englander) myself, and I held similar views even before I emigrated 8-9 years ago.

There's a curious breed that has evolved over teh last couple of decades of Irish people seemingly needing to defend Britain at ALL costs. It's rather peculiar.

Any slight criticism of the UK is characterized as Brit bashing by them or requires over the top defending. It's truly weird.

Each to their own I guess.

bob mcbob

Aegir wrote: »

I know what Elitism is thanks and no, it doesn’t even come close to getting my point.

Ok so you know what elitism is obviously and you understand that elitism is about retaining access to wealth and power. Currently this wealth and power overwhelmingly resides in London. So to answer you point

Who won’t they share power with?

The answer is everyone outside the elite.

bob mcbob

bob mcbob wrote: »

Ok so you know what elitism is obviously and you understand that elitism is about retaining access to wealth and power. Currently this wealth and power overwhelmingly resides in London. So to answer you point

Who won’t they share power with?

The answer is everyone outside the elite.

So nothing to do with English elites not sharing then, just elites in general.

Well played for moving the goal posts.

bob mcbob

Aegir wrote: »

So nothing to do with English elites not sharing then, just elites in general.

Well played for moving the goal posts.

The last time I looked London was in England

bob mcbob

bob mcbob wrote: »

The last time I looked London was in England

I hope you’ve got wheels on those goal posts, you’ll do your back in moving them around like that.

Fr Tod Umptious

BonnieSituation wrote: »

There's a curious breed that has evolved over teh last couple of decades of Irish people seemingly needing to defend Britain at ALL costs. It's rather peculiar.

Any slight criticism of the UK is characterized as Brit bashing by them or requires over the top defending. It's truly weird.

Each to their own I guess.

Personally speaking I don't defend Britain at all costs but my attitude to them has evolved over the decades, as I have gotten older I've had a more rounded view of them.

Something like arguing against Scottish independence which I have done here for years does not mean that I'd defend Britain at all costs.
I'm quite capable of disliking or liking the Scots, Welsh or English in equal measure.

Saren Arterius

Sam Russell wrote: »

Tony Blair (born in Edinburgh) and Gordon Brown (born Giffnock) are both Scottish.

So is Michael Gove.

Saren Arterius

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Only one of those listed (Brown) has contested or held a political seat / position in Scotland. The other three have spent their entire carrer in politics in England

And they are Scots.

Saren Arterius

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The reason that Scottish nationalism has enjoyed a resurgence is Brexit. It might have been prevented if the Conservatives had sought to reach an all-union consensus on Brexit instead of imposing their own definition of it onto the two states in the union that rejected it.

The Scots voted against independence knowing that an EU referendum is likely just round the corner. So it's their fault. It's rather quaint that they think everyone else in the UK should have voted Remain to satisfy them. No. Everyone else in the UK put themselves first, not the Scots.

Peregrinus

Saren Arterius wrote: »

The Scots voted against independence knowing that an EU referendum is likely just round the corner. So it's their fault. It's rather quaint that they think everyone else in the UK should have voted Remain to satisfy them. No. Everyone else in the UK put themselves first, not the Scots.

Which is, of course, a compelling reason for the Scots to choose independence.

A Dub in Glasgo

Saren Arterius wrote: »

The Scots voted against independence knowing that an EU referendum is likely just round the corner. So it's their fault. It's rather quaint that they think everyone else in the UK should have voted Remain to satisfy them. No. Everyone else in the UK put themselves first, not the Scots.

No they did not. The people in Scotland were assured that voting No in the independence referendum would secure their place in the EU and voting Yes would mean Scotland is out of the EU. They were also told that Scotland is in a union and a precious one at that

The Conservative Party published their 2015 election manifesto in April 2015 and they put the referendum on the EU in there. That is the first time they actually committed to holding the referednum, all other talk was speculation

Lumen

Peregrinus wrote: »

Which is, of course, a compelling reason for the Scots to choose independence.

But the Remain vote was, from a trade perspective, largely based on the % of trade with the EU vs rest of the world and the proximity of the EU market.

Using the same logic, what would the analysis be for "Scottish Remain" (in the UK)? The EU is closer to Scotland than the ROW is to the UK, but England is also closer to Scotland than Scotland is to the EU.

Isn't "Scotland will do better free of the yoke of rules imposed by the UK" similar to the Brexiter argument? Admittedly a significant difference is the current lack of fiscal autonomy, and more importantly Scotland would be leaving the UK to join the EU, whereas the UK left the EU to be forever alone.

Aegir

Aegir wrote: »

So nothing to do with English elites not sharing then, just elites in general.

Well played for moving the goal posts.

It's pretty clear what other posters have meant, if the majority of the Scottish assembly vote in favour of a vote. It holds no meaning, they've got a castrated government that aren't capable of self determination. Westminster decides and they're subject to the whims of that government.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

It's pretty clear what other posters have meant, if the majority of the Scottish assembly vote in favour of a vote. It holds no meaning, they've got a castrated government that aren't capable of self determination. Westminster decides and they're subject to the whims of that government.

that isn't what they meant at all.

From what I can see, we have the Scots with their very white (apologies Humza) Scottish cabinet (pretty much all of whom were educated at one of the four ancient Scottish universities) looking south and accusing the UK government, made up of a mix of ethnicities including English, Scottish, Indian, Pakistani, Ghanaian, Kurdish and Nigerian and saying that the English elite don't like to share.

Personally I would day the accusation should be that the Scottish Elite don't like to share and are willing to take Scotland out of the UK so they don't have to.

bob mcbob

Aegir wrote: »

I hope you’ve got wheels on those goal posts, you’ll do your back in moving them around like that.

It's good to see you playing the person (yet again) when you have lost the argument (yet again).

bob mcbob

Aegir wrote: »

that isn't what they meant at all.

From what I can see, we have the Scots with their very white (apologies Humza) Scottish cabinet (pretty much all of whom were educated at one of the four ancient Scottish universities) looking south and accusing the UK government, made up of a mix of ethnicities including English, Scottish, Indian, Pakistani, Ghanaian, Kurdish and Nigerian and saying that the English elite don't like to share.

Personally I would day the accusation should be that the Scottish Elite don't like to share and are willing to take Scotland out of the UK so they don't have to.

Yes Nicola Sturgeon really is the elite -

Nicola Ferguson Sturgeon[3] was born in Ayrshire Central Hospital in Irvine, on 19 July 1970.[4] She is the eldest of three daughters born to Joan Kerr Sturgeon (née Ferguson, born 1952), a dental nurse, and Robin Sturgeon (born 1948), an electrician.

This is called "social mobility" maybe you should google it.

Professor Moriarty

bob mcbob wrote: »

Yes Nicola Sturgeon really is the elite -

Nicola Ferguson Sturgeon[3] was born in Ayrshire Central Hospital in Irvine, on 19 July 1970.[4] She is the eldest of three daughters born to Joan Kerr Sturgeon (née Ferguson, born 1952), a dental nurse, and Robin Sturgeon (born 1948), an electrician.

This is called "social mobility" maybe you should google it.

The Tory government is awash with people who went to fee-paying schools and on to Oxbridge.

bob mcbob

bob mcbob wrote: »

It's good to see you playing the person (yet again) when you have lost the argument (yet again).

what argument? the points you make are all over the place and when this is pointed out, you start talking about playing the person.

Sounds like you know you were in the wrong

bob mcbob wrote: »

Yes Nicola Sturgeon really is the elite -

Nicola Ferguson Sturgeon[3] was born in Ayrshire Central Hospital in Irvine, on 19 July 1970.[4] She is the eldest of three daughters born to Joan Kerr Sturgeon (née Ferguson, born 1952), a dental nurse, and Robin Sturgeon (born 1948), an electrician.

This is called "social mobility" maybe you should google it.

Social mobility?

Like when the daughter of a shop keeper becomes Home secretary Or the the daughter of a nurse becomes attorney general?

people just get blinded by reverse snobbery and can't see past a couple of toffs.

Lumen

Aegir wrote: »

Social mobility?

Like when the daughter of a shop keeper becomes Home secretary Or the the daughter of a nurse becomes attorney general?

people just get blinded by reverse snobbery and can't see past a couple of toffs.

The existence of single data points to the contrary proves only that it is possible to get to the top without money/privilege.

I've worked inside UK central government and I can assure you it is chock full of posh idiots.

Lumen

Lumen wrote: »

The existence of single data points to the contrary proves only that it is possible to get to the top without money/privilege.

I've worked inside UK central government and I can assure you it is chock full of posh idiots.

so you mean the "Elites" aren't adverse to sharing?

bob mcbob

Aegir wrote: »

what argument? the points you make are all over the place and when this is pointed out, you start talking about playing the person.

Sounds like you know you were in the wrong



Social mobility?

Like when the daughter of a shop keeper becomes Home secretary Or the the daughter of a nurse becomes attorney general?

people just get blinded by reverse snobbery and can't see past a couple of toffs.

Ok enlighten me - please give a forensic breakdown of how my arguments were all over the place - looking forward to this.

ancapailldorcha

Saren Arterius wrote: »

The Scots voted against independence knowing that an EU referendum is likely just round the corner. So it's their fault. It's rather quaint that they think everyone else in the UK should have voted Remain to satisfy them. No. Everyone else in the UK put themselves first, not the Scots.

No, they didn't. The referendum on EU membership came about after the 2015 eleciton.

bob mcbob

Aegir wrote: »

so you mean the "Elites" aren't adverse to sharing?

Not according to this report -

Government progress on improving the life chances of disadvantaged people in England has been "disappointing," according to its own watchdog.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52982440

But London is looking at after it's own

Geography, not race, explains the disparity in England's educational outcomes

London has the country’s highest proportion of Bame pupils, and also has the best schools. Public investment is key

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/feb/04/geography-not-race-explains-the-disparity-in-englands-educational-outcomes

A Dub in Glasgo

Scottish independence is not about the educational merits of the current Scottish cabinet

My two sons are currently studying at the University of Glasgow so presumeably they come from an elitist backgound

A Dub in Glasgo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Scottish independence is not about the educational merits of the current Scottish cabinet

My two sons are currently studying at the University of Glasgow so presumeably they come from an elitist backgound

definitely.

I mean I am obviously an elitist as I attended the same university as a former conservative chairman.