Scottish independence

BonnieSituation

I've read through a lot of the reportage from yesterday and you'd have to admit that Sturgeon got through that as well as can be.

There literally isn't a more unflappable politician on these islands.

pixelburp

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I've read through a lot of the reportage from yesterday and you'd have to admit that Sturgeon got through that as well as can be.

There literally isn't a more unflappable politician on these islands.

Is there a risk of damage done, in simply being adjacent to the controversy? There's still a long way to go until May, but can't see how it wouldn't rub a bit of the varnish off of Sturgeon's image.

BonnieSituation

I've read through a lot of the reportage from yesterday and you'd have to admit that Sturgeon got through that as well as can be.

There literally isn't a more unflappable politician on these islands.

mick087

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I've read through a lot of the reportage from yesterday and you'd have to admit that Sturgeon got through that as well as can be.

There literally isn't a more unflappable politician on these islands.

I like Nicola Sturgeon and if i was Living in Scotland she would of had my vote.
After this episode im left with many doubts. I don't know if i would now vote for SNP.

I'm just one person i know this, but how many would be of a similar position as myself?

This will now up to the Scottish people to decide in there soon to be elections.

dogbert27

mick087 wrote: »

I like Nicola Sturgeon and if i was Living in Scotland she would of had my vote.
After this episode im left with many doubts. I don't know if i would now vote for SNP.

I'm just one person i know this, but how many would be of a similar position as myself?

This will now up to the Scottish people to decide in there soon to be elections.

Would you have doubts voting for the Tories in the next election given the lies and smear campaigns that they themselves are guilty of?

mick087

dogbert27 wrote: »

Would you have doubts voting for the Tories in the next election given the lies and smear campaigns that they themselves are guilty of?

No i would not vote Tory if was able vote in Scotland.

Its not a good idea to put that choice to people, this looks like your forcing the issue.

A Dub in Glasgo

Just sent my postal vote application in

I will vote SNP (despite my reservations) in the constituency vote and will vote Green on the list. They really are the only show in town if you want independence

BonnieSituation

pixelburp wrote: »

Is there a risk of damage done, in simply being adjacent to the controversy? There's still a long way to go until May, but can't see how it wouldn't rub a bit of the varnish off of Sturgeon's image.

Absolutely. But I think those who think this is more damaging than it is are more in the wishful thinking side of the camp.

It just doesn't feel like the knockout blow that unionists had hoped it would be.

Turning it around to show how independent the institutions are is what will stand to her and the SNP.

BonnieSituation

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Just sent my postal vote application in

I will vote SNP (despite my reservations) in the constituency vote and will vote Green on the list. They really are the only show in town if you want independence

Step one: achieve independence.

Step two can come after. Singular goal.

First Up

BonnieSituation wrote:

Step one: achieve independence.

Step two can come after. Singular goal.

That's the problem with Single Issue parties. They only agree on one thing. Once that has been achieved, their internal differences become clear and time and energy are wasted arguing about them.

Single party governments need to be more cohesive than that.

BonnieSituation

First Up wrote: »

That's the problem with Single Issue parties. They only agree on one thing. Once that has been achieved, their internal differences become clear and time and energy are wasted arguing about them.

Single party governments need to be more cohesive than that.

Of course. But what else can they do? Splinter before achieving the goal?

I think its clear as Irishmen and women that we have a fair idea that that won't work.

The single issue that they're focussing on is the biggest issue since partition to be dealt with by the UK.

First Up

BonnieSituation wrote:

Of course. But what else can they do? Splinter before achieving the goal?

I hope not but they might splinter soon after.

Hodors Appletart

First Up wrote: »

I hope not but they might splinter soon after.

probably a normal state of affairs though.

A majority of people are pulling for independence - but there are probably a sizable minority of people either members or supporters of the SNP who hold their nose at some of the non-Indy directions of the SNP, because they see an independent scotland as a more important goal than an independent scotland being run by the SNP (they may prefer a more conservative leaning Scottish government, just not in thrall to Westminster, for example, but are willing to stick with the SNP as they regard independence to make that decision on the type government scotland has to be more important than the type of government after independence is achieved.

Water John

I'd have no problem, post Indy with a substantial groups of SNP voters moving to the Greens or a new Scottish Labour Party. I wouldn't want the SNP too big and dominating Scottish politics for decades.

Mr.Nice Guy

If you have access to ITV, they are doing a programme tonight called 'UK: The End of the Union' at 7:30pm. It follows a poll conducted with Savanta ComRes that shows Scottish independence at 53% for Yes, while support for Irish reunification was found to be 43% in NI. This is arguably the biggest talking point...

https://twitter.com/ITVTonight/status/1367460568437641219

That's higher than what Scotland was polling prior to the 2014 referendum.

First Up

Hodors Appletart wrote:

A majority of people are pulling for independence - but there are probably a sizable minority of people either members or supporters of the SNP who hold their nose at some of the non-Indy directions of the SNP, because they see an independent scotland as a more important goal than an independent scotland being run by the SNP (they may prefer a more conservative leaning Scottish government, just not in thrall to Westminster, for example, but are willing to stick with the SNP as they regard independence to make that decision on the type government scotland has to be more important than the type of government after independence is achieved.

There was a time when the SNP were dubbed the Tartan Tories. That suggests some may not share a lot with their more left or Green leaning colleagues.

An independent Scotland will have an awful lot to do. The government will have no time to waste arguing with itself.

A lot needs to be done in the meantime.

BonnieSituation

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

If you have access to ITV, they are doing a programme tonight called 'UK: The End of the Union' at 7:30pm. It follows a poll conducted with Savanta ComRes that shows Scottish independence at 53% for Yes, while support for Irish reunification was found to be 43% in NI. This is arguably the biggest talking point...

https://twitter.com/ITVTonight/status/1367460568437641219

That's higher than what Scotland was polling prior to the 2014 referendum.

They could at least spell the country correctly. No wonder they want to leave!;)

BonnieSituation

First Up wrote: »

There was a time when the SNP were dubbed the Tartan Tories. That suggests some may not share a lot with their more left or Green leaning colleagues.

An independent Scotland will have an awful lot to do. The government will have no time to waste arguing with itself.

A lot needs to be done in the meantime.

I just don't foresee it happening. The historical nature of the feat should focus minds.

If they get their mandate in May I can see the infighting coming to a halt and they'll get into referendum mode.

Water John

Now accepting the position of the woman who wrote this opinion piece, it nevertheless sets out the patriachy element to the story between Salmond and Sturgeon:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/04/gender-politics-sturgeon-salmond-powerful-man-female-former-protege

Capt'n Midnight

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

If you have access to ITV, they are doing a programme tonight called 'UK: The End of the Union' at 7:30pm. It follows a poll conducted with Savanta ComRes that shows Scottish independence at 53% for Yes, while support for Irish reunification was found to be 43% in NI. This is arguably the biggest talking point..

It's also on UTV , the 'Tonight' program. And on the +1's

today · Thu, Mar 4 · 19:30-20:00 · 103. UTV HD
Tonight
Using exclusive polling of English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish voters, Julie discovers why so many people have lost interest in the Union.

eire4

Water John wrote: »

I'd have no problem, post Indy with a substantial groups of SNP voters moving to the Greens or a new Scottish Labour Party. I wouldn't want the SNP too big and dominating Scottish politics for decades.

I think something along those kinds of lines in terms of a realignment of the political landscape is very likely in a post independent Scotland.

Capt'n Midnight

First Up wrote: »

That's the problem with Single Issue parties. They only agree on one thing. Once that has been achieved, their internal differences become clear and time and energy are wasted arguing about them.

Single party governments need to be more cohesive than that.

The SNP are running Scotland or as much as Westminster lets them. So it's hard to argue they are a single issue party.

On the other hand the big issue isn't scaring away any voters. So there's that too.

As for party coherence, look at the Tories or Labour. Both would split down the middle if it wasn't for FPTP. Look at how Boris hedged his bets by doing a Remain and a Leave article pre the Bexit referendum.

A Dub in Glasgo

Water John wrote: »

Now accepting the position of the woman who wrote this opinion piece, it nevertheless sets out the patriachy element to the story between Salmond and Sturgeon:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/04/gender-politics-sturgeon-salmond-powerful-man-female-former-protege

From the article 'Five months previously, in November 2017, she had been told about alleged incidents involving the former first minister at Edinburgh airport a decade earlier'

From Criag Murray blog
'“[T]he police also spent a great deal of time attempting to substantiate the ‘incident’ at Edinburgh airport that has been so frequently recycled by the mainstream media over years….

“They discovered the actual Edinburgh airport ‘incident’ was that Alex Salmond had made a rather excruciating pun about ‘killer heels’ when the footwear of a female member of staff had set off the security scanner gate. This had been reported as a sexist comment in the context of a much wider dispute about staff conditions. That is it. ‘Killer heels’. A joke. No charge arose from this particular substantial waste of police time…”

This article is scathing about the lack of transparency and obstruction from the Scottish govt

"Sturgeon’s performance was a masterclass. As an exercise in open government, transparency and accountability, her performance and that of her government throughout this enquiry was lamentable. As the best debater in Holyrood, with skills honed over a career in adversarial politics, she knows how to parry, obfuscate and shape agendas. She used the same skills before the enquiry."

Comment: Sturgeon's performance was a masterclass in obfuscation and deflection

Water John

ADIG
This quote is from Prof Mitchell which you did not attribute;
'"Sturgeon’s performance was a masterclass. As an exercise in open government, transparency and accountability, her performance and that of her government throughout this enquiry was lamentable. As the best debater in Holyrood, with skills honed over a career in adversarial politics, she knows how to parry, obfuscate and shape agendas. She used the same skills before the enquiry."

I know nothing about Prof Mitchell and has he, skin in the game. Seems she used the same political skill set that any politician uses when before an inquiry. He's saying (not as praise) that she did it excellently.

A Dub in Glasgo

I posted his article link

I am not aware of which side he is on. The blurb on the uni website is here

https://www.centreonconstitutionalchange.ac.uk/people/james-mitchell

He is looking at the committee hearing from Sturgeon from a transparency point of view, the article from the Guardian you posted is looking from a gender point of view. Nobody is doubting Sturgeon is an accomplished politician but that does not mean she is a transparent one

Water John

Agreed their both that, Points of View, opinions.

First Up

BonnieSituation wrote:

If they get their mandate in May I can see the infighting coming to a halt and they'll get into referendum mode.

It's the period after a referendum passes I'm more concerned about. Deciding to leave something is the easy bit - as the Brexiteers are finding out.

BonnieSituation

First Up wrote: »

It's the period after a referendum passes I'm more concerned about. Deciding to leave something is the easy bit - as the Brexiteers are finding out.

Come on? Really?

Peregrinus

First Up wrote: »

It's the period after a referendum passes I'm more concerned about. Deciding to leave something is the easy bit - as the Brexiteers are finding out.

You're just pointing to the mistake the Brexiters made - deciding (and indeed committing) to leave the EU withouth having given any though to why, or how, or for what purpose, or with what consequences. The period after the referendum was tough for the UK because they the chose not to address the essential pre-referendum questions until after the referendum. (Which tells you a lot about Brexitry, really, but that's for another thread.)

We know the Scots Nats won't make the same mistake because they didn't make it in 2014. The 2014 indyref was preceded by a lengthy public discussion about these questions, and the publication of a detailed white paper about what an independent Scotland should look like, and how the transition should be managed, plus a draft provisional constitution for an independent Scotland. So they have form here. And they'd be even more likely to do the foundational work properly this time, having seen the shambolic parade of delusion, incompetence and disaster that is Brexit.

One of the fundamental differences between the Scottish Independence movement and the Brexit movement is that the Scots Nats do what they do because they love Scotland, while the Brexiters do what they do because they don't love Britain — they dislike what modern Britain has become and they want to tear down and recreate a (largely imaginary) nostalgic version of what Britain used to be. Hence Brexiters are largely unfazed by the harm they inflict — when your project is tearing something down you've pretty much bought into the idea of inflicting harm, really, and your concern is not to avoid it but to rationalise it.

First Up

BonnieSituation wrote:

Come on? Really?

Those in business are.