Scottish independence

Mr.Nice Guy

If there ends up being 52% in favour of independence and this is described as a 'perfect storm for failure', what does that say about the alternative? That Scots should remain stuck inside a Union that has the PM-in-waiting gloating she is going to ignore the biggest party and their mandate?

Very easy for Irish people that are inside the EU and away from the antics of Westminster to tell the Scots to just sit there and lump it. Many of them are fed up, and I can't blame them.

It's also a big assumption to suppose that the pro-independence crowd are only going to gain a few percentage points. Keep in mind before the 2014 referendum, independence support was in the high twenties and by the time of the vote, they had reached 45%; now they are starting off on approximately 50/50, while dealing with an absolute chasm of leadership on the unionist side. I think it's more likely they will hit the high fifties for IndyRef2.

bob mcbob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419144#Comment_119419144

The problem I see in Scotland the UK is that there are a lot of domestic issues at hand, where the SNP Tories continuously failed to address them, even to solve them.

And Sturgeon Johnson and the SNP Tories are constantly deviating from domestic problems and looking at independence, Brexit, as if independence Brexit would solve everything.

In terms of your other view -

I've always seen it that way. Scottish independence is a dumb populist answer to a dumb populist Brexit. Nothing thought through, and mandates created by historic reasons, medieval battles in Scotland, colonialist London attitudes not accepting the rules of an EU-community and all that not focused on the modern future.

You could look at it another way which some historians do - the act of union was nothing but a marriage of convenience where Scotland unified with England to gain access to their empire. Now that the empire is gone, there is little reason for the Scots to carry on with the marriage. This is not a new thing, it has been building for decades. See below the number of seats that the SNP won in 1974.

But hey you carry on with your complacency.

Strazdas

Reading the comments of Scottish Unionists on social media about the Truss / Sturgeon remarks is a real eye opener. They hate Sturgeon and the SNP with a vengeance.....they sound like DUP supporters on steroids (very right wing and Brexity too).

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419931#Comment_119419931

Sturgeon has to date achieved absolutely nothing for domestic matters in Scotland and yet again she keeps demanding a 2nd referendum. Just look at the NHS Scotland, it's a nightmare.

Do we know which currency Scotland wants? And I take it, the Scots will have realized by now that the Euro isn't the most stable choice....

Do we know which citizenship will there be? And would everybody gladly give up British for exchange of Scottish? Passport and residency rights et all....

I would largely guess that any independent Scotland will not be able to maintain the same military as they have now? Also will they possibly have to revert to a conscription army? How will they be able to police, patrol and defend their coastline, especially in absence of their "much hated" nuclear submarines and the possible threat of Russia?

How would the border between England and Scotland look like? Chaos like in Dover? And what would the economic impact for Scotland be? Be advised that does the majority of business is still with the rest of the UK rather than the EU.

Also, what kind of guarantees do exist from the EU to get the same amount of subsidies they're getting from London today?

Do guarantees exist from the EU, letters of intent, something in writing, how quickly or seamless Scotland would be a member of the EU?

And how many Scots are living in England or other parts of the UK, and won't be able to vote in the referendum?

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420237#Comment_119420237

All of this would presumably be in the referendum White Paper. We do know that they would retain sterling as the currency and the Queen as head of state. Citizenship would be an easy one - presumably anyone born in Scotland pre-independence day would still be entitled to British citizenship, as well as being entitled to a new Scottish passport if they wanted one.

bob mcbob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420237#Comment_119420237

NHS

• Scotland has a unique system of improving the quality of health care. It focuses on engaging the altruistic professional motivations of frontline staff to do better, and building their skills to improve. Success is defined based on specific measurements of safety and effectiveness that make sense
• to clinicians.
• Scotland’s smaller size as a country supports a more personalised, less formal approach than in England. The Scottish NHS has also benefited from a continuous focus on quality improvement over many years. It uses a consistent, coherent method where better ways of working are tested on a small scale, quickly changed, and then rolled out. Unlike in the rest of the UK, this is overseen by a single organisation that both monitors the quality of care and also helps staff to improve it.
• There is much for the other countries of the UK to learn from this. While comparing performance is very difficult, Scotland has had particular success in some priority areas like reducing the numbers of stillbirths. Scotland’s system provides possible alternatives for an English system with a tendency towards too many short-term, top-down initiatives that often fail to reach the front line. It also provides one possible model for a Northern Irish NHS yet to have a pervasive commitment to quality improvement, and a Welsh system described as needing better ways to hold health boards to account while supporting them in improving care.
• Scotland faces particular issues of unequal health outcomes, and very remote areas. There are pioneering initiatives to address these, like the Links worker programme1 and Early Years Collaborative to support people in very deprived areas, and use of video links for outpatient care on remote islands. These should be considered in other parts of the UK facing similar issues.
• Scotland has a longer history of drives towards making different parts of the health and social care system work together. It has used legislationto get these efforts underway while recognising that ultimately local relationships are the deciding factor. There is much for England and Wales to learn from this.
• https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/files/2017-07/learning-from-scotland-s-nhs-final.pdf

Police

Wiltshire Police is one of six forces in England currently placed in special measures - the highest ever number of forces concurrently under investigation.

https://news.sky.com/story/wiltshire-police-put-into-special-measures-over-failure-to-protect-vulnerable-people-12647241

Prisons

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/should-rest-uk-follow-scotlands-lead-prisons-1430768

Utilities

Nationlised Scottish water

Scottish Water Ranked Best UK Water Company and Utility for Customer Service

https://www.scottishwater.co.uk/About-Us/News-and-Views/2021/07/070721-Scottish-Water-ranked-best-UK-water-company-and-utility-for-customer-service

I could go on but I think that is enough for now.

Looking down to England from Scotland, most Scots view the government in London and their delivery of vital services as an absolute joke.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420361#Comment_119420361

The Queen would probably stay. I am also guessing they will have to get a governor general, like Australia or Canada? I doubt they could keep the British pound, even if they wanted to, plus the Bank of England will set the interest rates they like, Scotland having no influence at all. And Scotland's economy will struggle for the first years and would need stimulation.

The White Paper is basically a farce, it's written in "everything bad goes to England" and "everything good goes or stays in Scotland".

There are also no written guarantees from Bruxelles on EU membership or how soon this could happen for an independent Scotland.

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119418417#Comment_119418417

Scottish Independence has been one of my main worries ever since the Brexit referendum. It was as early as they day of the result, - what's going to happen to Scotland, was my first thought.

I can't find the BBC clip but it was something like "Cameron has resigned, Scotland wants independence, Gerry Adams wants reunification and it's only 9:30" , so the state fate of the union was set about 30 minutes after the official announcement.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420394#Comment_119420394

I believe the Queen remaining as head of state and Sterling as the currency is the official position of the SNP - they have no plans for a President or to join the Euro currency (not in the short term anyway). As far as I know, they wouldn't be allowed join the Eurozone on independence day, even if they wanted to - it's a process that would take several years minimum, you can't just adopt the currency at a moment's notice.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420397#Comment_119420397

The thing is when Brexit happened, the other thought apart from Scotland's future I've had is "let's hope nothing else major happens".

In the meantime, the pandemic hit, the war in the Ukraine hit, bills went up massively, economic downturn everywhere.

I'd have the same feelings about an independent Scotland, hoping that "nothing else happens" but knowing the country will be in for a rough ride.

I've always decided that living in the UK with Brexit or after Brexit would never be a long term plan. I simply didn't want to side with anybody, certainly not with the winning Brexiteers being on the economical losing side, but also not on the side of the politically losing Remainers having to ride it all out whatever stupidity they deliver. As said, Cameron failed, May failed, Johnson failed, and so will Truss or Sunak. Sturgeon in Scotland isn't the brightest either. I also personally don't think that she want's another referendum, - but certain hardliners in her party will certainly want one.

Scotland's independence will be very much like that, if I'd live there, and independence happened, I'd rather leave, follow things from afar.

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420237#Comment_119420237

If only there was some precedent of a nation leaving the UK that could help you out here...

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420394#Comment_119420394

Wait til you find out that the Scots also "own" the British Pound.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420361#Comment_119420361

I don't think that citizenship in the case of Scottish independence will be an easy one if you think about it:

I would find it hard to believe that Westminster would agree to 5 Million Scots living in a newly independent Scotland, outside of the UK, and retaining British citizenship, thus being able to vote in every British federal election via absentee ballot, also accessing consular services overseas, etc... whilst they voted to be in a new country and wanting to be independent from them. That's simply not going to work.

I'd say the only solution to this would be an exchange, Scottish citizenship instead of British. And I am certain, not everybody will be happy with that at all.

A Dub in Glasgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119418594#Comment_119418594

The Conservatives have 6 seats in Scotland. That is 6 out of 59 seats. The Labour Party have 1 seat (Ian 'I am not a nationalist as I wear my Union Jack suit jacket' Murray)

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420564#Comment_119420564

The only solution is this fanciful notion of you stripping people's citizenship from them?

Seriously?

Larbre34

If the Brexit vote has taught the Scots anything, it's that the FULL consequences of a Yes vote in any Indyref2 vote, need to be explained in detail; how it shall affect citizenship, nationhood, currency, international relations, business and economics - the lot.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420900#Comment_119420900

Sadly that would be it. Canadians and Australians also don't have the right to British citizenship as well, but that case is different as they were settled by Brits in history.

I could hardly see that London would agree to 5 Million Scots retaining British citizenship and being able to vote in every single federal election whilst insisting on their independent country. By law they would certainly be entitled to hit, at least under current legislation. I don't think any government in the would would agree to this.

It's beyond my imagination.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420922#Comment_119420922

The problem is that this explanation in detail are all publications of the SNP. They can be believed or not. I honestly wouldn't nor do I think they would all come true, once Scotland is independent.

Scottish independence is already riddled with conflicting opinions before it even starts.

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420960#Comment_119420960

What have Canada and Australia got to do with you stripping away the citizenship rights of approx 5m Scots?

Perhaps you could find an example of an integral part of the UK actually seceding as a way to figure out what may happen re citizenship? Surely you can find an example of that?

What's a federal election as it pertains to the UK? You know it's not a federal State? Right? That's partly the issue with its current political quagmire.

A Dub in Glasgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420960#Comment_119420960

Stripping people who want to remain British in an independent Scotland of their British nationality is not going to happen nor is it proposed by anyone in the UK

A Dub in Glasgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420178#Comment_119420178

Indeed they are and will think nothing of the Tories trampling all over the devolution settlement

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420990#Comment_119420990

The Irish are certainly not British. There are only residency rights and voting rights and that goes back even to 1921, as far as I know.

Well, if you're starting a discussion on "what's the one got to do with the other", than I can guess already where this goes to.

Canadian citizenship is actually not that old, I believe it started only after WW2?

Examples of other countries are multiple. Take a look at the split up of Czechoslovakia, and Czechoslovak citizenship even ceased to exist. Those living in the Czech republic became Czechs, those living in Slovakia became Slovaks.

I honestly don't think that Prague would have agreed to Bratislava to vote in their elections and vice versa.

Or take a look at the split up of Yugoslavia. Slovenia and Croatia certainly don't want any Serbs voting in their federal election after their independence.

Something similar would be bound to happen with Scottish independence.

But the way the discussion is going with some users here is: Yes, Scotland will become independent, but Scots will retain both the pound and also British citizenship. I'll be a similar debate as Brexit, having your cake and eating it, and you can see the results already.

But you can believe what you want to believe.

You simply can't have a divorce but still keep al the advantages of a marriage. Anybody so keen on Scottish independence must know this.

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421017#Comment_119421017

Whether they want to remain British or not is irrelevant. They will have that right to that nationality regardless of independence. Whether they use it or not is immaterial. (I don't mean to come across as snotty, as I have a lot of time for you on here, just haven't got the eloquence within at this hour to finesse the point, but I think you'll get the sentiment I'm attempting to convey)

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421049#Comment_119421049

That's a lot of words for you to essentially say that "I haven't a clue about citizenship and how it operates".

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421159#Comment_119421159

It's a very short answer you're providing for a complex matter.

And not answering them comprehensively, you just have to look at Brexit and one can hardly call that one as a success.

A Dub in Glasgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421242#Comment_119421242

Who in the UK is proposing to remove British citizenship from those that do not want Scottish citizenship and want to retain their British citizenship?

Sam Russell

Any Irish person born before 1948 is entitled to British citizenship.

It has been done before - citizenship is not a token gift. To threaten this is just project fear again. Vote for Scottish independence and you will be forced out of the EU - only vote against it and you are forced out of the EU - sound familiar.

The nasty party will try anything.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421533#Comment_119421533

It's strange though. Just to think that from 1921 to 1948 anybody born in Ireland would have entitlement to British citizenship? Did people actually exercise this entitlement? Also were they allowed to vote in British federal elections? Possibly an absentee ballot didn't exist at that time?

I also suggest 1948 was picked as a year to end this, as Ireland left the Commonwealth? As far as I know?

It's also possible this was based on British subject law, not the kind of British citizenship which exists today?

A Dub in Glasgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421633#Comment_119421633

and who in the UK is proposing to remove it?

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421633#Comment_119421633

Federal elections again? Come on, you can't be that ignorant about a country you are supposedly interested in Scotland staying a constituent part of.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421662#Comment_119421662

Currently none.

However, if you think that Brexit-Westminster will accept 5 Million Scots staying British citizens, wanting to retain all the rights as Brits and still able to vote in every British federal election, whilst wanting a completely independent country, then I think you're very much mistaken.

You can't ask for and implement a divorce from your wife, but still want to sleep with her, whilst enjoying the lower tax rates for married couples. Any fool knows that one and if you don't believe it, you're going to be in for a "big f-ing surprise"......