Scottish independence

Fr Tod Umptious

timsey tiger wrote: »

I think that people here who think that an independent Scotland will be our "friend" are naive. They went out of their way not vote for us to host the rugby world cup ffs. They will also be our direct competitors in the eu with the significant competitive advantage of a direct land connection to the mainland via channel tunnel.

I think that if they achieve independence and apply for eu membership we should be waiting with a long list of demands to secure our interests.

1. Rockall
2. tbc

Celtic kin bs should have no place in it, it wasn't even worth enough to them for something as unimportant to them as picking us over France for rugby world cup.

Other than the bit about the rugby world cup which is irrelevant you are dead right.

Scotland will not be our friend in Europe, if they ever get there.
They will be the complete opposite.
We will be fighting for the same share of the cake.

timsey tiger

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Other than the bit about the rugby world cup which is irrelevant you are dead right.

Scotland will not be our friend in Europe, if they ever get there.
They will be the complete opposite.
We will be fighting for the same share of the cake.

I think it is relevant in that it demonstrates that celtic kinship counts for nought.

Charles Babbage

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Other than the bit about the rugby world cup which is irrelevant you are dead right.

Scotland will not be our friend in Europe, if they ever get there.
They will be the complete opposite.
We will be fighting for the same share of the cake.

But surely worth a vote in the Eurovision?
More seriously, they would have common interests on many matters and that self interest would make them allies.

LuckyLloyd

It doesn’t matter if they would be our best buds or not, they still are entitled to self determination.

Fr Tod Umptious

timsey tiger wrote: »

I think it is relevant in that it demonstrates that celtic kinship counts for nought.

That's true, they dead not vote for the Ireland bid because essentially it was not a good bud.

pixelburp

Weird paranoia about Scotland being a "rival" or political enemy as an EU member: how would they be any different from all the other small nations present, in a community of equals that during this Brexit crisis, the union has shown itself to be? Heck, if we're speculating wildly, there's as valid a chance Ireland and Scotland pooling political capital to represent the English speaking, celtic oriented corner of the EU.

timsey tiger

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It doesn’t matter if they would be our best buds or not, they still are entitled to self determination.

I agree, but that is separate to membership of eu. We'd have a strategic one off advantage on their membership negotiations that shouldn't be passed up.

Fr Tod Umptious

Charles Babbage wrote: »

But surely worth a vote in the Eurovision?
More seriously, they would have common interests on many matters and that self interest would make them allies.

But what we have in common makes us rivals rather than allies.

Location, English speaking, workforce, education levels etc.

Ireland and Scotland would be competing for the same things.

timsey tiger

pixelburp wrote: »

Weird paranoia about Scotland being a "rival" or political enemy as an EU member: how would they be any different from all the other small nations present, in a community of equals that during this Brexit crisis, the union has shown itself to be? Heck, if we're speculating wildly, there's as valid a chance Ireland and Scotland pooling political capital to represent the English speaking, celtic oriented corner of the EU.

Language, cultural, labour market and legal systems that are a lot more aligned with the US and common wealth countries than other eu countries, that are major sources of foreign direct investment in Ireland.

What proportion of Socttish see themselves a Celts anyway?

sid waddell

An independent Scotland in the EU would be a very good friend of Ireland.

timsey tiger

timsey tiger wrote: »

What proportion of Socttish see themselves a Celts anyway?

A significant number of Scots view us the same way the unionists up north do. Quite a large number of them wouldn't see us as their friends.

Fr Tod Umptious

sid waddell wrote: »

An independent Scotland in the EU would be a very good friend of Ireland.

But why would they be Ireland's "friend" as you say.

As small country starting out (in the EU) they will be eager to develop their economy, and in that regard they will be a rival to Ireland

Look at the Rockall fiasco this summer, that wasn't coming from evil Torys in London

It was coming from Scotland.

Scott Tenorman

timsey tiger wrote: »

I think that people here who think that an independent Scotland will be our "friend" are naive. They went out of their way not vote for us to host the rugby world cup ffs. They will also be our direct competitors in the eu with the significant competitive advantage of a direct land connection to the mainland via channel tunnel.

I think that if they achieve independence and apply for eu membership we should be waiting with a long list of demands to secure our interests.

1. Rockall
2. tbc

Celtic kin bs should have no place in it, it wasn't even worth enough to them for something as unimportant to them as picking us over France for rugby world cup.

Just on the rugby World Cup thing, the Scottish RU stated beforehand they would vote for whoever would be the best for them financially and followed through with that. How is that going out of their way not to vote for Ireland??

timsey tiger

Scott Tenorman wrote: »

Just on the rugby World Cup thing, the Scottish RU stated beforehand they would vote for whoever would be the best for them financially and followed through with that. How is that going out of their way not to vote for Ireland??

That is exactly what their friendship would be worth in the eu.

It is out of their way, strengthening the popularity of the game and increasing the market for pro14 should have been their priority instead they went for the short term one off cash value to them.

CrabRevolution

Scott Tenorman wrote: »

Just on the rugby World Cup thing, the Scottish RU stated beforehand they would vote for whoever would be the best for them financially and followed through with that. How is that going out of their way not to vote for Ireland??

Doesn't that just illustrate the point about how Scotland can't be relied on as an automatic friend to Ireland? They'll look after their own interests, as they have every right to. I'd never hold it against them or argue against Scotland seeking independence/joining the EU, but I think the idea that they'll be our natural allies is simply untrue.

There's a sizeable chunk of Scotland that's as loyalist as the most unionist areas of Northern Ireland. They won't feel any affinity or bond to Ireland even in an independent Scotland, nor will they rush to be our friends.

timsey tiger

Countries don't have friends they have interests.

If an independent Scotland were to apply for eu membership, then we should look to our interests, that is first responsibility.

They look to theirs.

In time after they enter eu, certainly Ireland and Scotland would look to work together where their interests converge.

But we always need to be aware that they'll never do us any favours, you know like a friend would.

circadian

No nation is going to go out if it's way purely for the benefit of another. I don't see why people would expect it. Scotland, however, is moving in the same direction socially as Ireland. There is no reason to believe that our goals and principles don't align on many things. This gives two smaller nations in an economic bloc more weight.

A mutual understanding and direction between Ireland and Scotland would be beneficial to both. Obviously not everything would be agreed on but I have no reason to believe that Scotland would be an antagonistic competitor if it gained independence and access to the EU.

ancapailldorcha

I can think of nothing more disheartening and depressing than the idea that Ireland of all nations should hinder the efforts of another Celtic nation to enter the EU and escape the English yoke out of some apocryphal self interest. I'm a Unionist but Brexit has torpedoed the only sane rationale for maintaining the United Kingdom. Scotland and Northern Ireland should have the rights to self determination.

is_that_so

BonnieSituation wrote: »

There are no guarantees but it's very likely.

Also the adoption of the euro canard needs to be put away.

They'd have to follow the accession rules, which have a time frame and very specific requirements.

Sam Russell

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I can think of nothing more disheartening and depressing than the idea that Ireland of all nations should hinder the efforts of another Celtic nation to enter the EU and escape the English yoke out of some apocryphal self interest. I'm a Unionist but Brexit has torpedoed the only sane rationale for maintaining the United Kingdom. Scotland and Northern Ireland should have the rights to self determination.

Merkel was supporting Ireland in the Brexit campaign because, it was reported, that she was grateful for Ireland's support for a united Germany, while the UK would have supported a two Germany result. She had a long memory, and we should be grateful for that.

Ireland would find common cause with Scotland within the EU on very many issues, but not all, but most. Hopefully, if we support their accession, they will have a long memory too.

A Dub in Glasgo

We are a long way from Scotland becoming independent with the intransigence of the Tories. The Labour Party in Scotland are now coming around to how undemocratic it is for the Tories (who only polled 25% in Scotland) telling the people of Scotland to sod off, we cannot be allowed to review independence again

pixelburp

Apart from anything else, from Scotland's perspective it wouldn't make much sense to immediately antagonise your neighbour and partner in a new political union as a freshly baked independent nation. Making friends would absolutely be the order of the day IMO: one Rockall, like a single swallow, does not mean a summer; frostiness over some plinth in the Atlantic shouldn't be extrapolated into an instant rivalry between the two nations & I could sooner imagine a medium term strategy in Ireland & Scotland pooling resources or perspectives as outlying EU members.

Plus Scotland has a fairly healthy economy in its own right, it's debatable if they'd even need to pursue FDI - leaving aside the realities of them being one of the more geographically disconnected countries from the rest of the union upon independence.

Duke of Url

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

We are a long way from Scotland becoming independent with the intransigence of the Tories. The Labour Party in Scotland are now coming around to how undemocratic it is for the Tories (who only polled 25% in Scotland) telling the people of Scotland to sod off, we cannot be allowed to review independence again

Yep. Boris seems to have selective Democracy in mind


https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1205252415261421570

Scott Tenorman

CrabRevolution wrote: »

Doesn't that just illustrate the point about how Scotland can't be relied on as an automatic friend to Ireland? They'll look after their own interests, as they have every right to. I'd never hold it against them or argue against Scotland seeking independence/joining the EU, but I think the idea that they'll be our natural allies is simply untrue.

There's a sizeable chunk of Scotland that's as loyalist as the most unionist areas of Northern Ireland. They won't feel any affinity or bond to Ireland even in an independent Scotland, nor will they rush to be our friends.

Friendship doesn't come into it.
Ireland will look after their own interests, Scotland would do the same.

If those interests align that's super, if not then refer to above line

Scott Tenorman

Duke of Url wrote: »

Yep. Boris seems to have selective Democracy in mind


https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1205252415261421570

Can't vote for the head of state or the anyone in the upper house, yeah "greatest democracy in the world" alright!

Sam Russell

Scott Tenorman wrote: »

Can't vote for the head of state or the anyone in the upper house, yeah "greatest democracy in the world" alright!

Not only that, but the FPTP system allows a Gov to be elected with a minority of votes cast such that no single party Gov has been elected by a majority of the votes cast since 1932. The only Gov that enjoyed a majority was the Tory/LibDem coalition of 2010, during which the 'Alternative Vote' referendum was voted down.

As you say, 'greatest democracy in the world'.

VinLieger

Scott Tenorman wrote: »

Can't vote for the head of state or the anyone in the upper house, yeah "greatest democracy in the world" alright!

44% of the vote wins 56% of the seats...... #democracy

Ce he sin

VinLieger wrote: »

44% of the vote wins 56% of the seats...... #democracy

Yes, just look at Scotland! The pro independence SNP won most of the seats with 43% or so of the vote. The pro union parties got more than 50% of the votes yet some claim that the SNP have a mandate for a second referendum.

A Dub in Glasgo

Ce he sin wrote: »

Yes, just look at Scotland! The pro independence SNP won most of the seats with 43% or so of the vote. The pro union parties got more than 50% of the votes yet some claim that the SNP have a mandate for a second referendum.

The SNP are playing by the same rules as everybody else in a UK General Election. The mandate comes with the seats won and clearly the SNP got the majority of the seats in Scotland standing on another referendum pledge in 2015, 2017 and now 2019 - why one rule for the Tories and a different rule for the SNP? The Tories got 6 seats out of 59

In any event, pro-independence parties won the most seats in the 2016 Scottish Parliament elections which uses the Additional Member System type of PR. That is the mandate that matters but still the Tories refuse to recognise it

VinLieger

Ce he sin wrote: »

Yes, just look at Scotland! The pro independence SNP won most of the seats with 43% or so of the vote. The pro union parties got more than 50% of the votes yet some claim that the SNP have a mandate for a second referendum.

Corbyn never said he would have categorically refused another Independence ref like Johnson has so that's a completely incorrect statement.


Also as The above poster pointed out even if that were the case then using that same logic Johnson has no mandate for Brexit with his 44%, so which is it?