Scottish independence

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119570751#Comment_119570751

Funnily enough, Scotland is probably easier to manage than Northern Ireland, the border roads are fairly well defined and are generally North/South, as anyone who's had the pain of going laterally through the borders will attest to (+ if independence went though, they'd likely just get on with it rather than continually trying to change the rules, they could easily look to the EU and make hay while England and Wales flounder around).

MaccaTacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119463768#Comment_119463768

Why shouldn't they make their own decisions?

Maybe because they've enjoyed raping and pillaging countries like Ireland as a leading figure within the British Empire?

The idea that the Scots would ever be allies of ours is laughable.

Muahahaha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119570255#Comment_119570255

So Im guessing an independent Scotland would mean a pretty large upheaval of current logistics routes into Scotland. Like if Tesco and all the other big supermarkets import to England now and then move goods by road up to Scotland that option will be shut off due to customs and checks on meat. Would also be messy the other way with Scottish farmers finding problems getting product to the market in England. Mind you they might not mind if they have 400m people in the EU to sell to.

But still the existance of an EU border in northern England is likely to make the situation in NI look like a tea party, at least they're in both the EU and UK markets whereas Scotland wont be in both, only one or the other.

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119569757#Comment_119569757

The answer to most FUD (Fear Uncertainty Doubt) questions about Scottish independence can be answered by asking what happened when Ireland became independent.

Ireland pegged the currency to the UK pound whether they liked it or not. Also FFS how many times do I have to explain that the Scottish pound by law is 100% backed up by an equal amount of English Sterling. So ridiculously safe.

Euro is a red herring unless and until the Eurozone is their main trading partner.

Without England setting trading rules and trade deals that favour export of English services and imports of food, Scotland could do a lot better with the opposite of rules. Scotland sends a lot of tax to London.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119570858#Comment_119570858

That's another thing as well. There will be many other things as well, minor things, even down to driver's licenses, and exchange agreements with other countries say in the case of a career move..... Political populists certainly won't focus on that, they will avoid to answer straight questions.

Something major would be career choices, business in Scotland trading with England, for instance, or professional careers in the Royal Navy, the Royal Air Force, etc... I also recall that certain financial institutions based in Scotland indicated, relocating their business to England, in the event of a Yes vote in the first referendum. The debate will be similar if there was a 2nd referendum.

Scottish independence will most certainly affect each and every Scot in a different way, both economically and personally, and it's certainly not a question about fear and uncertainty.

A couple of things are already certain to me: Scottish independence won't come cheap for the people of Scotland, and it will certainly not unify the society of Scotland, if the split is 50 - 50, or 49 - 51. The results and sentiments will be similar to Brexit and same as Brexit the promises by the SNP won't come true.

How much did the Brexiteers state they would save by leaving the EU, and re-invest in the NHS? I don't think I need to explain more here.

Mr.Nice Guy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119571414#Comment_119571414

You're against Brexit and the broken Brexit promises, yet you want the Scots to be stuck under the rule of those that pushed for the policy, and ignored Scotland's strong opposition to it?

What's your answer to a Scot that says, 'I'm unhappy with the English continually voting in the Tories. I want my country to be in the EU'? What should that Scottish person do, bearing in mind Starmer's Labour have indicated there will be no attempt to rejoin the EU under his watch?

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119571734#Comment_119571734

If you ask the question this way the choice between the Brexiteer Tories and the SNP is a choice between pancreatic cancer or bowel cancer.

What the Brexiteer Tories are concerned, now they can't blame Bruxelles anymore for their own misery.

If Scotland goes independent, they can't blame London anymore, and at the same time Bruxelles won't provide them with money to fund their NHS, free universities, free prescription medicine or free menstrual products.

I also don't think that Liz Truss would change the course of Boris and allow a 2nd referendum, she will most likely steer the same course.

Also, it isn't wise of the SNP to constantly be against the submarines, especially as long as the Ruskies are on the warpath.

The case of the 2nd referendum is also the EU membership, but the EU isn't without flaws either. The biggest economic market of Scotland is still the UK or rest of the UK, not mainland Europe.

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119571414#Comment_119571414

And yet Irish people can still work in GCHQ. The CTA allows reciprocal rights. The Tories are planning to fire 90,000 civil servants so a lot of people won't have to worry which country they'll be working in. They are also trimming down the armed forces despite the claims to pump money into it, it's not for wages.

Drivers licences ? Are you suggesting that England will be that petty ?

Also what happened when Ireland became independent ?

pixelburp

No independence manifesto is going to be that detailing that it'll go down to the level of drivers licenses. As has been said already, the Irish experience is relevant here 100% and it's not exactly a stretch or infeasible that a Scottish CTA would be established to maintain a soft border between Scotland and England. It'd be madness not to.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119571734#Comment_119571734

It is possible to believe that Brexit is a clusterf**k and at the same time not be a fan of Scottish independence.

Brexit was the breakup of a 40 year relationship, Scottish independence would be the breaking of a 400 year relationship.

Unpacking that so that everyone is happy with the outcome will not be easy.

I don't like the idea from a purely Irish perspective, and that's all I really care about, how it affects me and my country.

An independent Scotland would be a direct competitor to Ireland as a English speaking well educated county (possibly as a member of the EU) which also happens to have a land border to the very big UK market.

Plus an independent Scotland would have a destabilizing affect on NI. And I personally would prefer no to remain stable.

I've hope Scotland get their chance for indyfref2 soon and reject it again and put the issue to bed for a long time to come.

pixelburp

If Ireland's financial and economic success hinges upon the fate of Scotland's existence as an independent nation - we are truly a house of straw. Nor do I see how an Independent Scotland somehow destabilises Northern Ireland; that harm is being adequately fulfilled by the DUP.

This segue has been discussed before and would only repeat my own point of view: Scotland in the EU would suddenly add another English Speaking, North-Western voice and perspective. One that very realistically could or would want to ally with Ireland on common causes. I'd be so bold as to say Scotland and Ireland would be more often partners in things than rivals (or worse).

Sam Russell

Scotland's interests, as an independent nation would closely align with Ireland's interests, particularly if they were members of the EU.

Obviously we would be competitive with them in some areas but on the whole we would have common interests in agriculture, fish, industry, and they would align with our approach on many issues that are currently outside their competence as they are solely the remit of a hostile Westminster Gov.

Ha, breaking a 400 year old relationship - we broke a 700 year old relationship that was more like a tyranny. I am sure that many seeking independence for Scotland would see their current relationship with the Westminster Tory Gov, as currently formed, as a tyranny.

Muahahaha

Doesnt Ireland and Scotland have some kind of ongoing dispute over a bunch of rocks in the sea somewhere, I seem to remember the Scots sabre rattling about it a couple of years back. Well heres our opportunity to get our rocks back, they will be the price of EU accession 😂

Plot twist no.2, Liz Truss introduces her legislation to say that any referendum cant be held until opinion polls are consistently showing a 60% Yes vote. Soon thereafter and with the British economy in the tank opinion polls in the UK show a 60% Yes vote to rejoin the EU. Truss is left in a fluster as calls come in for her to apply her own legislation to having an EU referendum again. She refuses because in the Tory party rules are for thee and not for me. This emboldens the Scottish Indy movement further and they get their 60% in the opinion polls and the Torys then have no way out of holding it the referendum.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119563740#Comment_119563740

Scotland was forced to leave the EU on a vote that flimsy so why not.

It is stuck with English PMs on less than 50%

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119573103#Comment_119573103

The act of union is 300 years old, not 400, but let's not be too picky here, - it's been a very long time either way and the divorce would be more than difficult, as there are populists on both sides, arguments and disagreements are to be expected. In my lifetime, it's only the Czechs and the Slovaks who managed this rather civilized, but both had basically nothing, were neither in NATO nor in the EU....

The thing is, when Liz Truss assumed office today, it was oddly Nicola Sturgeon to ask and remind her of the importance of help for families during the cost of living crisis. Whom would Nicola Sturgeon ask, if Scotland was independent?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119575768#Comment_119575768

Sturgeon would not need to ask anyone as she would have ful control over taxation. I don't really get your point there.

Khan just gave a very measured interview about needing to work together. Far cry from Truss boasting about taking people on.

Capt'n Midnight

Slightly off topic.

Didn't it take 500 years for the English to stop using the Fluer-de-lis ?

Mr.Nice Guy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119573103#Comment_119573103

That's your own personal take which is fair enough, but my question was asking it from the perspective of a Scottish person that wants to be in the EU. What are they to do when the two main British parties have ruled out the possibility of rejoining the EU? Are they to be expected to deal with a poorer economy, loss of Erasmus and all the rest of it, and simply wait for the English to change tack - if they ever will? That isn't tenable, and it's why Brexit was such a disaster for unionism.

In other news, I enjoyed this comment by Sturgeon in the aftermath of Truss' vote win.

https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1566762513307471874?cxt=HHwWhMC40Y2Nob4rAAAA

A Dub in Glasgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119575768#Comment_119575768

Scotland

pixelburp

I appreciate it's a bit ghoulish on my part, given she's still with us: I wonder how - or if - Elizabeth II's passing might change the narrative on Scottish independence, if at all? It's interesting how she's spending her final days in Scotland in the first place (and apparently her favourite home); she reigned for 70 years, and became a bit of a "permanent" symbol of constancy while the UK itself saw seismic changes; a loss of empire, huge internal conflict in NI, increased diversification of the population, social liberalism taking hold, alongside the shift towards modernity and the digital age.

I can't help wondering if in the absence of that through-line, there'll be a subtle introspective shift North of the border - and what the result would be. Does the union become weakened by such a broadly popular, longstanding monarch? Would Scottish unionism become weak gruel in the face of King Charles, while Undecided find the prospect of someone who isn't Lizzy as head of state unappealing. Or indeed: would the move for independence shrink under the thinking that it was "too soon" after Elizabeth's passing, a sense of retrospective solidarity? Interesting times ahead.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119590011#Comment_119590011

It's worth bearing in mind that the intention has never been for Scotland to become a republic (unlike our good selves) and that the British monarch would remain Scottish head of state after independence. But certainly, if and when Her Majesty passes away, it raises all sorts of questions for the future of the UK, for Scotland and Northern Ireland and for the Commonwealth. We are definitely heading into unchartered waters.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119590011#Comment_119590011

It would have an effect on the Union (negative) in the best of times. Now, I think it could be a major catalyst to it's break-up. Commonwealth will fracture first though...a slew of new republics?

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119590090#Comment_119590090

Yep. Can't see how that doesn't happen if Barbados of all places has the guts to ditch the monarchy.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119590099#Comment_119590099

The allegiance to one woman was touching but there was always going to be a day of reckoning. She really should have passed the baton on long ago and allowed a new vision emerge under her guidance. It was the only thing that might have saved it and the CW, if not the Union itself.

Really is a seismic event for the UK and how they handle it.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119590090#Comment_119590090

There is nothing inconsistent with a republic being a member of the commonwealth ask the 36 of 56 that are! You need a bit more analysis or fact checking, which ever.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119590090#Comment_119590090

Something we haven't focused on is the effect that this will have on Northern Irish unionism. The loyalists for the last 70 years have been loyal to 'Her Majesty the Queen'. Goodness knows what effect Elizabeth passing and being replaced by Charles will have on the very concept of NI loyalism.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119590128#Comment_119590128

I don't think she has any say in the matter. It's really the prerogative of the prime minister and there's no way the current Tory party are going to compromise on something like that.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119590132#Comment_119590132

I know that. I was just saying there would be a slew of new ones.

Still doesn't change my view that they will be leaving the CW or it will die from lack of interest

Mr.Nice Guy

It could be a bit of a headache for the Scottish government. If Canada, Australia, etc. start making sounds that they will move towards the republic route, there will be calls by those pro-independence to signal the same. If the polls in Scotland start showing support for such a move, it leaves Sturgeon in a tough spot. Any move towards abolishing the monarchy will have the unionists citing it as evidence that the Scottish government won't be interested in safeguarding British culture.

I suspect the Scottish government's preference would be to get independence done with the head of state remaining the same, and then after a few years put it to a referendum as to whether there should be a Scottish republic. If the queen passes, then they will have to confront the issue of monarchy vs republic sooner than they would likely want.

rock22

Is the King/Queen of Scotland a separate title or is it simply Queen of UK?