Spring 2020..... 1.5m Dairy calves.... discuss.

Good loser

Base price wrote: »

Bollox, that is the same codswollop that I heard at the IFA meeting on Tuesday.

They are still trying to kick the can even further down the road and hoping that beef prices will recover sometime in the future.
Beef prices are similar to milk, crude oil or other commodity prices, they will rise or fall and there is feck all that you and I can do about. That is the reality when your product is traded. They fail to acknowledge that if live calf shipping or cull calf slaughter is curtailed or stopped then we head into a crises.

Your last sentence is spot on there BP.


These two outlets must continue at the very least or, if possible, increase in numbers to help beef price prospects.
No body should be talking them down or scare mongering. If restrictions are to come let them come in their own time without being cheer led by producers.
These options are much better than forcing dairy farmers to hang on to calves for 4/6/8 weeks. Market prices take care of that issue already.

Bass Reeves

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

The beef price cant stay what it's at long term, I'd prefer give calves away than have to keep them till weaning. That's a massive cost. I think they will be sold but at very low prices which should help the buyers bottom line
who knows, in 2 years time when they're heading to the factory beef price could be over 4€

4/kg is BS. we need an average of that or above to cover costs at present, ya if we can get AA, FR for nothing 4/kg may be sustainable. The most overpriced animal at present is the AA animal. There was and is total disrespect shown to the smaller finisher and part time farmer over the last 10 years. He is now voting with his wallet and lads are in shell shock. You still have lads under the illusion that a full time beef farmer will extract a higher price from processors. Sorry that is not the way it works. Full time lads are slaves to the system....if they exist. I know very few full time beef farmers most are hauling, agents, dealers or have exceptionally large farms and most are struggling anyway.

I am on good land because of the way I farm it it would be rated as exceptional. I am aiming for a gross margin of 600/head to leave a net margin of 250/head. Next year I need a price of 4/kg in June to achieve that. Now I am not sure about reaching that. If I cannot reach that other lads reaching 100-150 less are heading out the gate fast. At the prices I bought cattle this year store men made nothing, lads that think different are deluded. If this winter is sub 4/KG and it is looking like it may well be 30-50c/kg off that even for steers or heifers not to mind bulls, next spring will be a disaster.

Grasstomilk you have to find some to give them away to, an exporter or a farmer. Yes a department approved facility may be an option next spring but from Woulfe's presentation its not a solution beyond that.

Lads cannot grasp a negative value. it means that at present calf prices most calves are born in debt. If there is any hiccup in the export this spring and winter finishing prices are at present levels there will be blood.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeSLPELpMeM

Watch the last 40-50 seconds

Is it the dairy farmer or the store man

mahoney_j

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

The beef price cant stay what it's at long term, I'd prefer give calves away than have to keep them till weaning. That's a massive cost. I think they will be sold but at very low prices which should help the buyers bottom line
who knows, in 2 years time when they're heading to the factory beef price could be over 4€

If it came to it I’d do ssme as you give away at least some of the calves ,purely down to economics ,I could keep them till weaning maby bit longer but figures don’t stack up take the hit earlier at much lower loss
The numbers are there now snd are continuing to pour in from dairy side unfourtnately I think beef prices are mire likely to stay at or below current levels than hit 4 euro a kg ,throw in mercusor deal and cheap Brazilian beef ......

alps

Base price wrote: »

Bollox, that is the same codswollop that I heard at the IFA meeting on Tuesday.

They are still trying to kick the can even further down the road and hoping that beef prices will recover sometime in the future.
Beef prices are similar to milk, crude oil or other commodity prices, they will rise or fall and there is feck all that you and I can do about. That is the reality when your product is traded. They fail to acknowledge that if live calf shipping or cull calf slaughter is curtailed or stopped then we head into a crises.

Well the meeting in Cork the following day must have presented a completely different message..

It seemed that the round of meetings was expressly planned because of that exact fear of slaughter and shipping being curtailed...

How could the message change completely in one day?

amacca

Birdnuts wrote: »

I'd take one over a Holstein any day - its like trying to eat soup with a fork fattening those lanky ****ers!!

I used to buy off a lad with a holstein herd.......The calves were middling to pretty good for the most part

He crossed with blue straws and they were a good animal, the angus he crossed with were lanky and narrow as a calf in fairness but if you could hold on to them they came good in the end........its just not viable to hold on to them anymore the way things are going.

I noticed in latter years the calf quality started to decline, that seemed to be more a function of what they were crossing the cows with, runty short gestation type animals...the cows in the field looked the same.

amacca

Hard Knocks wrote: »

As pointed out by others on this thread the experts are lacking and are making allot of errors with little or no consequence to themselves

Why should farmers take the hit

There are too many experts (Dept, Teagasc, BB consultants) to be paid from a struggling industry especially with the Brexit storm brewing

Couldn't agree more with that. The primary producer is getting screwed in a number of ways and parasitic quangos is one of those

more fool me if I listen to horse****.......not that really ever did, plenty capable of making different bad decisions on my own

blue5000

I've been following this thread with my mod hat on, but someone has started a petition to save Irish family farms, usually this crowd would be anti Monsanto etc. but this time I signed up

http://chng.it/ZzMwd8bT4P

Veal production here is a non-runner in my opinion as all these calves are going to come to market at the one time. The glut is in Feb every year. The type of cow that most dairy farmers have now is super efficient at converting grass, I reckon the male calves from these cows will have the same ability.

I think we need to have a good look at what way beef is produced off grass in NZ for a solution. Perhaps kill them at 14-20 months off grass as bulls? Most of what we produce as beef ends up as mince anyway, what difference does it make if there is very little fat on it? Just my 2 cents.

amacca

blue5000 wrote: »

what difference does it make if there is very little fat on it? Just my 2 cents.

perhaps it doesn't to the uneducated palette

would it might make a difference down the road if the product is dense protein with little flavour

blue5000

amacca wrote: »

perhaps it doesn't to the uneducated palette

would it might make a difference down the road if the product is dense protein with little flavour

Throw a jar of Dolmio sauce on it, be the finest:D.

mahoney_j

Just a thought on calves and calf quality going back a few years our herds were predominantly br fr snd hol fr ,we had decent quality fr calves and decent beef off them thru aa he and lim ,the quality started to go once other breeds like jerseys etc started to be used as a x .in my herd in last 2 to 3 years I’ve def seen it as I’ve used a lot of srm bulls (supplementary registered with jersey blood not pure fr)there has been significant gains in the milk side thru higher solid % and tbf milk kg has held to a point .gestation length has got shorter ,all gains to a dairy farmer but the quality in ainmal size ,feet udder quality and the subsequent dairy male and beef ainmal from them has nose dived were told there is not a huge % of x bred ainmals in country which is right to a point but there is a significant mostly je influence in the high ebi fr that we are now breeding .the numbers are still there calf wise but quality has most def dropped as regards male and dairy beef .
My dairy stock on appearance (functional traits like feet legs udders stature etc)has also nose dived I’m now reverting to full pedigree ainmals with bigger emphasis on type

Base price

alps wrote: »

Well the meeting in Cork the following day must have presented a completely different message..

It seemed that the round of meetings was expressly planned because of that exact fear of slaughter and shipping being curtailed...
How could the message change completely in one day?

To appease the audience.

Cork has the largest number of dairy farms/cows in the country and accounts for a third of all calves slaughtered.

K.G.

Its gas isnt it. the beef lads were giving out that dairy lads didnt realise that the poor returns from beef was their problem as well.and now the beef lads dont realise that the calf problem is the beef lads problem as well.if there isnt a cull or export beef is screwed

alps

Base price wrote: »

To appease the audience.

Cork has the largest number of dairy farms/cows in the country and accounts for a third of all calves slaughtered.

Where did you get the slaughtered figure....or just a notion?

Base price

alps wrote: »

Where did you get the slaughtered figure....or just a notion?

DAFM quarterly reports.

jaymla627

Teagasc really need to put Pat Dillion on gardening leave, he's in danger of getting assaulted by beef farmers at these events with some of the gems of opinions he's coming out with

cosatron

mahoney_j wrote: »

Just a thought on calves and calf quality going back a few years our herds were predominantly br fr snd hol fr ,we had decent quality fr calves and decent beef off them thru aa he and lim ,the quality started to go once other breeds like jerseys etc started to be used as a x .in my herd in last 2 to 3 years I’ve def seen it as I’ve used a lot of srm bulls (supplementary registered with jersey blood not pure fr)there has been significant gains in the milk side thru higher solid % and tbf milk kg has held to a point .gestation length has got shorter ,all gains to a dairy farmer but the quality in ainmal size ,feet udder quality and the subsequent dairy male and beef ainmal from them has nose dived were told there is not a huge % of x bred ainmals in country which is right to a point but there is a significant mostly je influence in the high ebi fr that we are now breeding .the numbers are still there calf wise but quality has most def dropped as regards male and dairy beef .
My dairy stock on appearance (functional traits like feet legs udders stature etc)has also nose dived I’m now reverting to full pedigree ainmals with bigger emphasis on type

I figured that out last years aswell and have stopped using anything with New Zealand bloodline, all bulls I used this year are positive for chest width, body depth and rump width, so if a bull is born, he should have a nice shape to him.

Good loser

Bass Reeves wrote: »

4/kg is BS. we need an average of that or above to cover costs at present, ya if we can get AA, FR for nothing 4/kg may be sustainable. The most overpriced animal at present is the AA animal. There was and is total disrespect shown to the smaller finisher and part time farmer over the last 10 years. He is now voting with his wallet and lads are in shell shock. You still have lads under the illusion that a full time beef farmer will extract a higher price from processors. Sorry that is not the way it works. Full time lads are slaves to the system....if they exist. I know very few full time beef farmers most are hauling, agents, dealers or have exceptionally large farms and most are struggling anyway.

I am on good land because of the way I farm it it would be rated as exceptional. I am aiming for a gross margin of 600/head to leave a net margin of 250/head. Next year I need a price of 4/kg in June to achieve that. Now I am not sure about reaching that. If I cannot reach that other lads reaching 100-150 less are heading out the gate fast. At the prices I bought cattle this year store men made nothing, lads that think different are deluded. If this winter is sub 4/KG and it is looking like it may well be 30-50c/kg off that even for steers or heifers not to mind bulls, next spring will be a disaster.

Grasstomilk you have to find some to give them away to, an exporter or a farmer. Yes a department approved facility may be an option next spring but from Woulfe's presentation its not a solution beyond that.

Lads cannot grasp a negative value. it means that at present calf prices most calves are born in debt. If there is any hiccup in the export this spring and winter finishing prices are at present levels there will be blood.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeSLPELpMeM

Watch the last 40-50 seconds

Is it the dairy farmer or the store man

Over many years I have never managed to average €600 price gain over 12 months.
I would be extremely pleased with €480 per annum gross. But have never managed that either.

alps

Base price wrote: »

DAFM quarterly reports.

Can only find regional vet lab one's...any links?

Bass Reeves

Good loser wrote: »

Over many years I have never managed to average €600 price gain over 12 months.
I would be extremely pleased with €480 per annum gross. But have never managed that either.

I be disappointed with less than 500, have got as high as 1K in 12 months on single animals but I am sub 600 at present but I am aiming for that.. My costings show me that from late August/early September to 12 months from it 350 euro is the total cost of carrying an animal if you carry the animal into October you are feeding ration on 600kg+ cattle for minimum weight gain. June-July stores look expensive on paper but depending on the year they can be 30-50 too expensive or 100/head below the autumn price. This year they are working about 50/head above mart price but against that they are in a settled bunch.

Base price

alps wrote: »

Can only find regional vet lab one's...any links?

Ist in the list - Farm to factory/Abattoir quarterly.

https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/animalhealthwelfare/animalidentificationmovement/cattle/bovinebirthandmovementsmonthlyreports/

20silkcut

Is keeping animals to 36 months with minimal ration a viable option?
They will all get to 600kg + on grass alone eventually won’t they?

amacca

20silkcut wrote: »

Is keeping animals to 36 months with minimal ration a viable option?
They will all get to 600kg + on grass alone eventually won’t they?

was wondering the same myself

on the face of it seems easier than rushing to stay still hitting spec and 30 month age limit especially with slower developing animals etc

you'd be at the mercy of factories changing the goalposts and being left with a loss making product too

thats why you'd like to see 30 month age limit gone if you were going for more extensive (and environmentally friendly I presume) setup where you wait until the hit the weight regardless of age

Buford T. Justice XIX

20silkcut wrote: »

Is keeping animals to 36 months with minimal ration a viable option?
They will all get to 600kg + on grass alone eventually won’t they?

Well, there's grass and then there's grass.

Managing grass so that it's at the correct stage for grazing for optimum growth wouldn't be very well established in Ireland as a whole but a lot of lads manage to reach it at times during the growing season. Then doing that for the whole growing season and getting it consistently right and you would have a chance.

And that's assuming you would have the right grass varieties to manage them like that in the first place and that you wouldn't have to be cutting a load of silage to feed them indoors and that you could keep them out grazing for 8 or 9 months of the year.

20silkcut

amacca wrote: »

was wondering the same myself

on the face of it seems easier than rushing to stay still hitting spec and 30 month age limit especially with slower developing animals etc

you'd be at the mercy of factories changing the goalposts and being left with a loss making product too

thats why you'd like to see 30 month age limit gone if you were going for more extensive (and environmentally friendly I presume) setup where you wait until the hit the weight regardless of age

Definitely for some of the cross breed dairy cattle your on a hiding to nothing pumping meal into them.
No matter what you do they are going to be P grade cattle at the end of their days.

20silkcut

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

Well, there's grass and then there's grass.

Managing grass so that it's at the correct stage for grazing for optimum growth wouldn't be very well established in Ireland as a whole but a lot of lads manage to reach it at times during the growing season. Then doing that for the whole growing season and getting it consistently right and you would have a chance.

And that's assuming you would have the right grass varieties to manage them like that in the first place and that you wouldn't have to be cutting a load of silage to feed them indoors and that you could keep them out grazing for 8 or 9 months of the year.

The key thing is the stocking rate if it’s low enough there will be grass in front of them without expensive re seeding( cutting cost to the bone is essential) and depending on what part of the country 8-9 month grazing is achievable.

Stocking a farm to the max is only playing into the hands of beef factories , seed merchants, co-ops, shed builders etc etc. I know most of them are decent people but these are the guys taking money out of your pocket by a thousand cuts.
And it is something you have control over if you can control your ego. And have a smaller operation maybe.

cute geoge

In my part of country on dryish ground 7 months would be the average grazing season .You might lucky of a year and keep light weanlings out for a few weeks longer .There is real costs in wintering stores ,lads talk about short winter but this only on exceptional ground .
Have lads worked out how much per day it cost to over winter stores for 5 month winter ,it does not make nice reading any way!!!

amacca

20silkcut wrote: »

The key thing is the stocking rate if it’s low enough there will be grass in front of them without expensive re seeding( cutting cost to the bone is essential) and depending on what part of the country 8-9 month grazing is achievable.

Stocking a farm to the max is only playing into the hands of beef factories , seed merchants, co-ops, shed builders etc etc. I know most of them are decent people but these are the guys taking money out of your pocket by a thousand cuts.
And it is something you have control over if you can control your ego. And have a smaller operation maybe.

I agree and if everyone was practicing that perhaps beef prices would be in a better place

I can't help thinking some lads deep down in the back of their heads are thinking about the possibility of reference years style setup in next cap or beef quota of some sort and don't want to be screwed another way down the line

If there was less meddling and fear of meddling the market might seek a level where there was a few Bob in it for most (assuming there was less meddling in processors favour too)

Bass Reeves

cute geoge wrote: »

In my part of country on dryish ground 7 months would be the average grazing season .You might lucky of a year and keep light weanlings out for a few weeks longer .There is real costs in wintering stores ,lads talk about short winter but this only on exceptional ground .
Have lads worked out how much per day it cost to over winter stores for 5 month winter ,it does not make nice reading any way!!!

My winter is approx 120-130 days. Expect to have everything housed by 10th November, I will start letting cattle off the 1st March and expect to have everything on grass by March 31st. If I did not have
Costs Store get silage, minerals and limestone flour only( would give them Rock salt if I could get cheap ordinary rock salt only no ration. Costs then depends on the DM of the silage. If you have high DM silage a bale will do 16 stores over two days, low DM silage will not last as long but just below the two day mark. Costing high DM silage at 25/bale gives a wintering costs of of approx 90c/day including minerals and limestone flour. Even low DM silage will come in around 1 euro/day.

Who2

amacca wrote: »

I agree and if everyone was practicing that perhaps beef prices would be in a better place

I can't help thinking some lads deep down in the back of their heads are thinking about the possibility of reference years style setup in next cap or beef quota of some sort and don't want to be screwed another way down the line

If there was less meddling and fear of meddling the market might seek a level where there was a few Bob in it for most (assuming there was less meddling in processors favour too)

I’m going on that notion and could be completely wrong but the way things are panning out I’m of the belief there will have to be some sort of sub brought in and it will suit the government if we are restocked before any reference year or even use the mass exodus from suckling as an excuse to bring in something.

20silkcut

amacca wrote: »

I agree and if everyone was practicing that perhaps beef prices would be in a better place

I can't help thinking some lads deep down in the back of their heads are thinking about the possibility of reference years style setup in next cap or beef quota of some sort and don't want to be screwed another way down the line

If there was less meddling and fear of meddling the market might seek a level where there was a few Bob in it for most (assuming there was less meddling in processors favour too)

With the way the bps payment is going with convergence that is becoming less of a factor I feel.
I have had nearly 5k shaved off my payment by degrees in the last 10 years despite increasing numbers.