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Spring 2020..... 1.5m Dairy calves.... discuss.
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GrasstoMilk wrote: »Hod forbid anyone did a bit of hard work to get anywhere!
Seems to me that beef men want dairy farmers to subsidize there already subsidised farms now because they've let Larry away for so long, they realised after the 'no plan, beef plan' protests that they were never going to be able to change things there so now the dairy man has to pay because they actually do turn profit.
Theres very few guys in my locality that are actually full time beef farmers, it's an after work hobby for most
Say lads give up the hobby tell the likes of yourself to run your calves up your hole and do what you like with them and go and make your fortune bringing them to Larry yourself how would you go, theirs been ignorant and then theirs yourself0 -
Are we calling 60 hours a long week now
It is all in the context. A lot of farmers imagine they work long hours. They look at the lad working a 4o hour week. However most farmers consider there working hours start when they get out of bed and finish when the go to bed.
Take a normal worker working a 60 hour week. He has to be in for lets say 7pm. If he is a half an hour from work he may be up at or before 6 am depending on whether he must shower in the morning, but the least he need is to eat something as it will be 10 am before he sees anything and in some employments his first break could be 4.5 hour's after starting time. He rocks into work at 7pm to achieve a 10 hour work day he will have at least an hour in breaks to add in some jobs it may be necessary to close down from 1-2 in that case add another 30 minutes to the day if lunch is an hour. So after rocking in at 7am he gets off at 6pm at best and it may be nearer 7 pm depending on mandatory breaks. He hops into his car and is home between 7-7.30.......now he may need to collect milk for the house, the kids from the parents place, the shopping arrive home to take the kids to music or dancing. Now do that for 6 days a week in a structured employment and you get the idea that yes a 60 hour working week is long.
Farmers can often associate activities that other workers are not allowed to do during there working day, drop and collect the kids from school, into the house after milking fir breakfast, putting on the dinner if the other half is working, lighting the fire before starting to milk the cows, dropping to the shop for the paper, a few cigs running into johnny ( couldn't get away from him) for a chat, taking the car to the garage all these activities are not part of a normal workers working day.
As well a 30 minute commute is low by normal standards. If you are doing a 60 hour week with commuting and even simple stuff like putting diesel in the car for tomorrow you could be leaving the house at 6am and not getting home until 8pm. Many doing it would never see there children from one end of the week until the next. You would be hitting the sack at 10pm if not earlier. for the 2-3 hours home time you may need to sort out clothes, lunch and dinner for the following day.
Mandatory working week for employees has to average less than 50/week. We had a few discussion on this forum about farm wages over the years, most farmer get heart failure when you start going above 12/hour. I think we had one lad with an employee on a 8 hour day staring at 8am, with two hours of breaks during the day so on site from 8am-6pm. Add another two hours to that day and do it Monday to Saturday.Slava Ukrainii
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Are we calling 60 hours a long week now
In a previous life I worked 38 hours anything after that was time snd a half or double time ,granted farming is a different way of life ,I’m now farm owner ,manager ,plumber ,electrician ,Milker ,tractor driver and general worker etc the money isn’t ax easy or as plentiful but I’d never go back .i love what I do now ,saying that the first bill paid every month is my Labour ,I ain’t working my bollox off 7 days a week for the love of cows ,maby some are happy to work for nothing ,not me0 -
Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »Did you miss the part where the only cow not entering the parlour is waiting for a scratch? A sure sign of disposable cows alright.
And he stated that there was family labour on the farm in spring when needed and said nowhere that only the student was the only one looking after the calves.
Been around enough of these large operations where the owner isn't in the the trenches with the workers everyday to know what the outcome to animal welfare does be especially where staffing levels per animals on farm are high it's been a non issue re the bull calf problem and kept quietly in the background up to this point, and for 2020 lads will get away with it, but into 2021 it will be a different ballgame0 -
Bass Reeves wrote: »It is all in the context. A lot of farmers imagine they work long hours. They look at the lad working a 4o hour week. However most farmers consider there working hours start when they get out of bed and finish when the go to bed.
Take a normal worker working a 60 hour week. He has to be in for lets say 7pm. If he is a half an hour from work he may be up at or before 6 am depending on whether he must shower in the morning, but the least he need is to eat something as it will be 10 am before he sees anything and in some employments his first break could be 4.5 hour's after starting time. He rocks into work at 7pm to achieve a 10 hour work day he will have at least an hour in breaks to add in some jobs it may be necessary to close down from 1-2 in that case add another 30 minutes to the day if lunch is an hour. So after rocking in at 7am he gets off at 6pm at best and it may be nearer 7 pm depending on mandatory breaks. He hops into his car and is home between 7-7.30.......now he may need to collect milk for the house, the kids from the parents place, the shopping arrive home to take the kids to music or dancing. Now do that for 6 days a week in a structured employment and you get the idea that yes a 60 hour working week is long.
Farmers can often associate activities that other workers are not allowed to do during there working day, drop and collect the kids from school, into the house after milking fir breakfast, putting on the dinner if the other half is working, lighting the fire before starting to milk the cows, dropping to the shop for the paper, a few cigs running into johnny ( couldn't get away from him) for a chat, taking the car to the garage all these activities are not part of a normal workers working day.
As well a 30 minute commute is low by normal standards. If you are doing a 60 hour week with commuting and even simple stuff like putting diesel in the car for tomorrow you could be leaving the house at 6am and not getting home until 8pm. Many doing it would never see there children from one end of the week until the next. You would be hitting the sack at 10pm if not earlier. for the 2-3 hours home time you may need to sort out clothes, lunch and dinner for the following day.
Mandatory working week for employees has to average less than 50/week. We had a few discussion on this forum about farm wages over the years, most farmer get heart failure when you start going above 12/hour. I think we had one lad with an employee on a 8 hour day staring at 8am, with two hours of breaks during the day so on site from 8am-6pm. Add another two hours to that day and do it Monday to Saturday.
Some amount of sense in that post.0 -
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Bass Reeves wrote: »It is all in the context. A lot of farmers imagine they work long hours. They look at the lad working a 4o hour week. However most farmers consider there working hours start when they get out of bed and finish when the go to bed.
Take a normal worker working a 60 hour week. He has to be in for lets say 7pm. If he is a half an hour from work he may be up at or before 6 am depending on whether he must shower in the morning, but the least he need is to eat something as it will be 10 am before he sees anything and in some employments his first break could be 4.5 hour's after starting time. He rocks into work at 7pm to achieve a 10 hour work day he will have at least an hour in breaks to add in some jobs it may be necessary to close down from 1-2 in that case add another 30 minutes to the day if lunch is an hour. So after rocking in at 7am he gets off at 6pm at best and it may be nearer 7 pm depending on mandatory breaks. He hops into his car and is home between 7-7.30.......now he may need to collect milk for the house, the kids from the parents place, the shopping arrive home to take the kids to music or dancing. Now do that for 6 days a week in a structured employment and you get the idea that yes a 60 hour working week is long.
Farmers can often associate activities that other workers are not allowed to do during there working day, drop and collect the kids from school, into the house after milking fir breakfast, putting on the dinner if the other half is working, lighting the fire before starting to milk the cows, dropping to the shop for the paper, a few cigs running into johnny ( couldn't get away from him) for a chat, taking the car to the garage all these activities are not part of a normal workers working day.
As well a 30 minute commute is low by normal standards. If you are doing a 60 hour week with commuting and even simple stuff like putting diesel in the car for tomorrow you could be leaving the house at 6am and not getting home until 8pm. Many doing it would never see there children from one end of the week until the next. You would be hitting the sack at 10pm if not earlier. for the 2-3 hours home time you may need to sort out clothes, lunch and dinner for the following day.
Mandatory working week for employees has to average less than 50/week. We had a few discussion on this forum about farm wages over the years, most farmer get heart failure when you start going above 12/hour. I think we had one lad with an employee on a 8 hour day staring at 8am, with two hours of breaks during the day so on site from 8am-6pm. Add another two hours to that day and do it Monday to Saturday.
Belter of a post0 -
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Bass Reeves wrote: »It is all in the context. A lot of farmers imagine they work long hours. They look at the lad working a 4o hour week. However most farmers consider there working hours start when they get out of bed and finish when the go to bed.
Take a normal worker working a 60 hour week. He has to be in for lets say 7pm. If he is a half an hour from work he may be up at or before 6 am depending on whether he must shower in the morning, but the least he need is to eat something as it will be 10 am before he sees anything and in some employments his first break could be 4.5 hour's after starting time. He rocks into work at 7pm to achieve a 10 hour work day he will have at least an hour in breaks to add in some jobs it may be necessary to close down from 1-2 in that case add another 30 minutes to the day if lunch is an hour. So after rocking in at 7am he gets off at 6pm at best and it may be nearer 7 pm depending on mandatory breaks. He hops into his car and is home between 7-7.30.......now he may need to collect milk for the house, the kids from the parents place, the shopping arrive home to take the kids to music or dancing. Now do that for 6 days a week in a structured employment and you get the idea that yes a 60 hour working week is long.
Farmers can often associate activities that other workers are not allowed to do during there working day, drop and collect the kids from school, into the house after milking fir breakfast, putting on the dinner if the other half is working, lighting the fire before starting to milk the cows, dropping to the shop for the paper, a few cigs running into johnny ( couldn't get away from him) for a chat, taking the car to the garage all these activities are not part of a normal workers working day.
As well a 30 minute commute is low by normal standards. If you are doing a 60 hour week with commuting and even simple stuff like putting diesel in the car for tomorrow you could be leaving the house at 6am and not getting home until 8pm. Many doing it would never see there children from one end of the week until the next. You would be hitting the sack at 10pm if not earlier. for the 2-3 hours home time you may need to sort out clothes, lunch and dinner for the following day.
Mandatory working week for employees has to average less than 50/week. We had a few discussion on this forum about farm wages over the years, most farmer get heart failure when you start going above 12/hour. I think we had one lad with an employee on a 8 hour day staring at 8am, with two hours of breaks during the day so on site from 8am-6pm. Add another two hours to that day and do it Monday to Saturday.
Having been on both sides of the argument id say there s plenty spend a good bit.of their 39 hr week chatting smoking or whatever. Truth is plenty people doss away through life in all work environments. The one thing about dairy if you re not the business it ll show straight away.the thought came to my the other day that just the molking process is 28 hrs a week here and my day off Sunday the minimum hrs work would be 5hrs.for me i think anyone with a job is better off than being self employed nowadays no matter what you re at.some of the hrs self employed people are putting in around here are crazy0 -
Having been on both sides of the argument id say there s plenty spend a good bit.of their 39 hr week chatting smoking or whatever. Truth is plenty people doss away through life in all work environments. The one thing about dairy if you re not the business it ll show straight away.the thought came to my the other day that just the molking process is 28 hrs a week here and my day off Sunday the minimum hrs work would be 5hrs.for me i think anyone with a job is better off than being self employed nowadays no matter what you re at.some of the hrs self employed people are putting in around here are crazy
And the self employed get no breaks, they are targetted for every tax etc,
It's not sustainable whats going on0 -
And the self employed get no breaks, they are targetted for every tax etc,
It's not sustainable whats going on
Talk about delusional perception's. What was worse it was thanked by lads. I never made money until I had self employed income. the better half was talking about it lately. Now we got no grants for kids going to college. However they all worked on the farm and were paid through the farm. As she said we never had to give them 50, 70 or 100 euro going back on a Sunday evening.
There is a few of us go to football final nearly every year. One lad has a limited company, He pays the hotel bill on the company card, collects a few tax receipts if we can get them, and the dinner receipt. He buys a couple rounds in exchange not that we want him to but he insists on it.
You can write off your car, all your fuel and maintenance costs. If you cannot work the system its your own fault not the tax system.Slava Ukrainii
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Having been on both sides of the argument id say there s plenty spend a good bit.of their 39 hr week chatting smoking or whatever. Truth is plenty people doss away through life in all work environments. The one thing about dairy if you re not the business it ll show straight away.the thought came to my the other day that just the molking process is 28 hrs a week here and my day off Sunday the minimum hrs work would be 5hrs.for me i think anyone with a job is better off than being self employed nowadays no matter what you re at.some of the hrs self employed people are putting in around here are crazy
I prefer to be doing that at 15 euro/hour than working on a farm at 12-13/hour. Ya there is so called handy jobs in the PS some are some are not. When you go above a certain level you earn it. There are advantages in every system but I never really got capital until I had self employed income.
Ya a couple earning 40K each may seem comfortable, by the time they have the mortgage paid the kids are in college costing 10k/year each after tax. If they are lucky there wages have gone up if not they are in a right rat race. Even a 38-40 hour week translates into 50-55 hour week. Too many farmers look at the local garda or teacher. Look at the Nurse travelling 50 miles into a hospital, the factory worker travelling 40 miles and working shift.
I know I worked across a lot of different systems. I was lucky my wife job shared for 15 years while the kids were young but that was because we accepted the reduction in her wages were balanced by my ability to develop my career. But we still be at nothing except we went farming. Yes we made scarfices but self employed income is easier to shelter.
The biggest problem with most farmers is they get too caught up in not paying tax, they buy a new Landcruiser before a Mercedes. Mind you I have neitherSlava Ukrainii
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And the self employed get no breaks, they are targetted for every tax etc,
It's not sustainable whats going on[/quote
That word “sustainable” — do any of you realise what it means or is meant to mean and how it’s been defined differently by the other buzzword of “stakeholders” ?
Farmers have to realise their actual working time is a cost and not just thrown in to make the system work. Their land , their facilities, their way of life also have a cost/ benefit and just because their assets are inherited or paid for does not mean that they too don’t have a cost or a wider Benefit. The global Roundtable for sustainable beef(GRSB) recognise this but our agri policy is led by the sustainable agricultural initiative (sai) which created the European Roundtable for beef sustainability (ERBS) and surprise surprise , it omits the principal of people and community welfare and farm viability which is a fundamental principal of GRSB —why ? because it is industry led with no farmer organization input but guess what —it’s Bord Bia and Dawn meats sponsored with the likes of abp and Tesco on board.
Wrangler , - I am as proud as you with respect to the people that have served the IFA over the years and a lot who continue to serve it. The respect and power of the IFA is enormous when it comes to Brussels and it punches way above its weight . But it has been totally wrong-footed in making their goal of making Irish agri sustainable. Whether this was because of complacency or rewards for the top boys it does the matter to me , but it needs to be addressed ruthlessly.
You are right and it’s totally true that supply and demand for a given product will dictate prices, but when that product is being manipulated and debased than its a false market for a bastardised product. I despair when someone like you says it can’t be helped because we are where we are, the market will decide things and lowest price wins . It’s people like you who have earned respect that can change things .
Have a look at the the Canadian Roundtable for beef sustainability and see how different their ethos and approach is versus our ERBS .
https://crsb.ca/
As I’ve said elsewhere , I am not a practicing farmer but please don't dismiss easily what I am saying . I’ve spent a lot of time researching this and I truly believe this is a last stand for a lot of ye because time is not on your side.
This isn’t actually about the dairy calf versus the suckler calf - it’s about “sustainability” and what the definition of sustainability is. That’s the same fight for all farmers and indeed rural Ireland which is anywhere outside the M50 contrary to what some politicians think.0 -
Do you know i was half way through a post arguing out the points and a thought crossed my mind,"this guy believe s the strike had a positive outcome ".i ll say no moreBass Reeves wrote: »Talk about delusional perception's. What was worse it was thanked by lads. I never made money until I had self employed income. the better half was talking about it lately. Now we got no grants for kids going to college. However they all worked on the farm and were paid through the farm. As she said we never had to give them 50, 70 or 100 euro going back on a Sunday evening.
There is a few of us go to football final nearly every year. One lad has a limited company, He pays the hotel bill on the company card, collects a few tax receipts if we can get them, and the dinner receipt. He buys a couple rounds in exchange not that we want him to but he insists on it.
You can write off your car, all your fuel and maintenance costs. If you cannot work the system its your own fault not the tax system.0 -
Ffs what a naive comment
How is it naive? We're expected to rear calves now to 8 weeks and the give the calf to the beef farmer.
After how long have they finally realised they've been paying too much for calves?
They've let Larry ride them for 30 odd years now
They ruined the beef trade here with there strike, base price 3.40 now and an absolute wall of cattle to be killed
I stand by my comment that we're to subsidize beef farmers because they were happy enough to pay too much for calves,any stock really. The price calves were getting in the spring gone was there realistic value but some still have there head in the sand in that regard0 -
Say lads give up the hobby tell the likes of yourself to run your calves up your hole and do what you like with them and go and make your fortune bringing them to Larry yourself how would you go, theirs been ignorant and then theirs yourself
And if there was money in beef jay why did you go milking cows?
You seem have issue with any farmer thats, spring calving, calves compact, uses ebi, youd love for any issue that would drag the way the typical irish dairy farmer down to happen.
What's the big chip on your shoulder for?0 -
GrasstoMilk wrote: »How is it naive? We're expected to rear calves now to 8 weeks and the give the calf to the beef farmer.
After how long have they finally realised they've been paying too much for calves?
They've let Larry ride them for 30 odd years now
They ruined the beef trade here with there strike, base price 3.40 now and an absolute wall of cattle to be killed
I stand by my comment that we're to subsidize beef farmers because they were happy enough to pay too much for calves,any stock really. The price calves were getting in the spring gone was there realistic value but some still have there head in the sand in that regard
U clearly have a poor /clouded understanding of the whole situation0 -
GrasstoMilk wrote: »And if there was money in beef jay why did you go milking cows?
You seem have issue with any farmer thats, spring calving, calves compact, uses ebi, youd love for any issue that would drag the way the typical irish dairy farmer down to happen.
What's the big chip on your shoulder for?
Gg u go finish cattle yourself and see how u get on jay whilst making controversial comments ain’t a million miles off ,all about the dairy farmer and by your thinking the beef man caused the mess and is to blame but shur as long as u can milk more cows tis grand0 -
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Gg u go finish cattle yourself and see how u get on jay whilst making controversial comments ain’t a million miles off ,all about the dairy farmer and by your thinking the beef man caused the mess and is to blame but shur as long as u can milk more cows tis grand
Well the meds now where finishers are on there knees begging factories to take cattle has definitely been caused by beef plan and the farmers that supported it.
We had the second highest price in Europe at the time of the protests0 -
And the self employed get no breaks, they are targetted for every tax etc,
It's not sustainable whats going on[/quote
That word “sustainable” — do any of you realise what it means or is meant to mean and how it’s been defined differently by the other buzzword of “stakeholders” ?
Farmers have to realise their actual working time is a cost and not just thrown in to make the system work. Their land , their facilities, their way of life also have a cost/ benefit and just because their assets are inherited or paid for does not mean that they too don’t have a cost or a wider Benefit. The global Roundtable for sustainable beef(GRSB) recognise this but our agri policy is led by the sustainable agricultural initiative (sai) which created the European Roundtable for beef sustainability (ERBS) and surprise surprise , it omits the principal of people and community welfare and farm viability which is a fundamental principal of GRSB —why ? because it is industry led with no farmer organization input but guess what —it’s Bord Bia and Dawn meats sponsored with the likes of abp and Tesco on board.
Wrangler , - I am as proud as you with respect to the people that have served the IFA over the years and a lot who continue to serve it. The respect and power of the IFA is enormous when it comes to Brussels and it punches way above its weight . But it has been totally wrong-footed in making their goal of making Irish agri sustainable. Whether this was because of complacency or rewards for the top boys it does the matter to me , but it needs to be addressed ruthlessly.
You are right and it’s totally true that supply and demand for a given product will dictate prices, but when that product is being manipulated and debased than its a false market for a bastardised product. I despair when someone like you says it can’t be helped because we are where we are, the market will decide things and lowest price wins . It’s people like you who have earned respect that can change things .
Have a look at the the Canadian Roundtable for beef sustainability and see how different their ethos and approach is versus our ERBS .
https://crsb.ca/
As I’ve said elsewhere , I am not a practicing farmer but please don't dismiss easily what I am saying . I’ve spent a lot of time researching this and I truly believe this is a last stand for a lot of ye because time is not on your side.
This isn’t actually about the dairy calf versus the suckler calf - it’s about “sustainability” and what the definition of sustainability is. That’s the same fight for all farmers and indeed rural Ireland which is anywhere outside the M50 contrary to what some politicians think.
You're very optimistic for the beef industry but I fear it's misplaced, It wouldn't be the first industry in Ireland to become unviable........ we used to make motor cars once, and linen.
I used the word unsustainable in respect of the way the self employed are treated, not in relation to the beef industry. I used the example of a couple, one a part time public servant, the other on the dole and how they got though the recession and now one of their parents is in a €1200/week nursing home free of charge.......... this in a country where the debt clock is racking up at a phenomenal rate, That's what's unsustainable.
Bord bia would put out a similar image to the round table..... paper doesn't refuse ink etc
https://www.bordbia.ie/0 -
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GrasstoMilk wrote: »Clouded? You wouldnt sell your bull calves in the spring because you weren't getting what you thought they were worth, are you going to rear them to weaning now and then give them to the beef farmer?
I have to say it’s fairly obvious to me that the dairy sector is being asked to subside the beef sector. There is no doubt in my mind about that
And as I’ve said before there is decent money to be made in rearing a calf to 18-20 months - there is no doubt about it0 -
GrasstoMilk wrote: »Clouded? You wouldnt sell your bull calves in the spring because you weren't getting what you thought they were worth, are you going to rear them to weaning now and then give them to the beef farmer?
Where did u get that nugget ,I did sell a bunch of calves in spring and I kept more till September due to fragmented land .wether u want to see it or not ,calf quality will have to improve ,exporting for veal is on borrowed time ,rightly we can’t bobby a calf at birth and as dairy farmers we will be forced to keep calves for longer possibly 8/10 weeks0 -
I have to say it’s fairly obvious to me that the dairy sector is being asked to subside the beef sector. There is no doubt in my mind about that
And as I’ve said before there is decent money to be made in rearing a calf to 18-20 months - there is no doubt about it
Even still at current prices ,???,is the calf sold to beef enterprise at a price ,land and Labour accounted for at that ???0 -
Is the proposal 8 to 10 weeks before a calf can leave the farm? Or 8 to 10 weeks before it can go to a Mart/ exporter?
I could see a situation where there'd be specialist calf rearers, picking up calves from suitable dairy farms and rearing them on, either to sell at 8 to 10 weeks or later if that's where the money is...Slava ukraini 🇺🇦
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You said on here a number of times that you were keeping extra calves because they weren't going to get the price you wanted for them.Where did u get that nugget ,I did sell a bunch of calves in spring and I kept more till September due to fragmented land .wether u want to see it or not ,calf quality will have to improve ,exporting for veal is on borrowed time ,rightly we can’t bobby a calf at birth and as dairy farmers we will be forced to keep calves for longer possibly 8/10 weeks
We're you also not happy with the prices you were offered when you went to sell those calves in September?
Theres no money for the beef man but you still have to make your bit?
But hypocritical, is it not?0 -
When you think about it its not the first time dairy has had subsidies beef ,dairy largely paid for establishing the current suckler herd0
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GrasstoMilk wrote: »You said on here a number of times that you were keeping extra calves because they weren't going to get the price you wanted for them.
We're you also not happy with the prices you were offered when you went to sell those calves in September?
Theres no money for the beef man but you still have to make your bit?
But hypocritical, is it not?
I said I kept x number because of fragmented land not because I couldn’t get enough for them ,I was happy with what I got for spring calves and considering the trade was very happy with what I got in September ,won’t get rich on it but didn’t cost me anything ,as for hypocritical .......jaysus u we’re blaming the beef man for his downfall few posts back u go try finish cattle ,deal with factories and let us know how u go0 -
I'm seeing a lot of dairy cross Weanlens going into the ring and failing to get any bid of any kind. I know one lad who reared over 75 Lim X bull calves. He's after buying 100 bales of silage from me (same stuff I thought I'd never get to sell)
I was asking him about the system he's on, he told me himself it's all just madness and has swore he'll never buy a calf again. He paid an average of 200, spent at least another 150 on feed and other costs. Failed to get any of them sold and now he plans on holding them to finish himself over the next 18 months.
if things weren't bad enough for him, he's already working shift work for not what you'd call great money.
I didn't want to be giving him advice but I told him he'd be better off with only the bare amount of Lu and just collect every payment going from the eu, to which he whole heatedly agreed, he said he was even thinking of planting the place at one stage before entering the calf game.0 -
If all the dairy calves were reared in this country then what would happen when they get to factory age. It's all ready oversupplied. The best thing for beef price long term is on farm euthanasia for the bottom barrel calves.0
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Markcheese wrote: »Is the proposal 8 to 10 weeks before a calf can leave the farm? Or 8 to 10 weeks before it can go to a Mart/ exporter?
I could see a situation where there'd be specialist calf rearers, picking up calves from suitable dairy farms and rearing them on, either to sell at 8 to 10 weeks or later if that's where the money is...
Was at a vetinary event recently and from vets there we could be looking at 10/12 weeks before they leave the farm in the near future0
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