Spring 2020..... 1.5m Dairy calves.... discuss.

Morris Moss

Danzy wrote: »

Should might not come into it any more.

The calf will be a cost of milk production.

Not right but that won't change it.

Sorry now but do you honestly think lads are going to keep calves for 2 months and then let them off for next to nothing? You'd be better of keeping them if that's the case.

jaymla627

Morris Moss wrote: »

Sorry now but do you honestly think lads are going to keep calves for 2 months and then let them off for next to nothing? You'd be better of keeping them if that's the case.

Any heavily stocked farms it would be impossible to do so, unless you rent half the parish to rear all stock, 150 cow farms instead of say 150 cows 35 heifer calves and 35 maiden heifers which is 220 head would have north of 400 head if all stock kept on farm and brought to beef our sold as replacements

alps

wrangler wrote: »

It doesn't matter what the calf costs to get to the market, but what it's worth to the buyer.
Up to this they've been lucky in that the buyers have paid more than they're worth but if the forecasted glut materialises the market won't be as good

Nearly agree....suggest it's not what it's worth to the buyer, it's what the buyer is willing to pay..

grassroot1

Morris Moss wrote: »

Sorry now but do you honestly think lads are going to keep calves for 2 months and then let them off for next to nothing? You'd be better of keeping them if that's the case.

They might wish to but they will in their fork
Any heavily stocked dairy farm know the work involved in rearing calves.

amacca

Morris Moss wrote: »

And how much should the dairy farmer expect to get for rearing the calf, I'd have no problems holding onto a calf if I at least got a half decent price, but last year l kept the first calves for a month and barely averaged 20 euro, no jerseys here either.

I do calf to beef (perhaps not as efficiently as some) prior to this year I had been building up a network of suppliers of decent quality calves (dairy crosses mostly) .... at current prices the numbers just don't stack up, I'm not going to pay money just to work like a dog......

What I do is essentially take up to a two year bet on an animal that they will leave behind approx 100 -200 per head (like I said not as efficient as some)

To take that bet (for ****ing peanuts afaic) I have to raise the calf from about 3 weeks of age so that means

Pay for milk replacer approx bag and a half per calf (no point buying the ****e or underfeeding - you are only costing yourself more time and money with health issues to solve) ....so between 50 and 75 euro straight away

Then they will get ration (I like to feed a lot when young and give them a good start) so approx 50 euro for first year per calf

Then they usually need to be dehorned, squeezed (but we won't count my time or the equipment needed to do that or the housing facilities or straw come to think of it)

As if that wasn't enough the greedy bastards want to be fed over their first winter and it's best to supplement their feed unless you have unbelievable silage + give minerals approx

Also because they are dairy x the huars aren't nearly as developed as a suckler animal at the end of the second summer at grass (even with compensatory growth and all that) they are going to need a second wintering and associated costs to fetch any sort of a price at factory or mart - and some of them will amount to nothing because some cute farmer I bought off snuck in the odd screw here and there

Add on top of all that veterinary costs for worming and sickness + mortality (if you have livestock you'll have deadstock too as we all know) + the cost of testing

Don't forget diesel, insurance etc and then when I really think about I think about how much of a complete gob****e I must be if I kept at it

I'll be downsizing initially to see if I can reduce costs and labour and make it more worthwhile and then I'll be looking for something else (mercifully dairying isn't an option as I reckon that would be a way for me to lose even more money the way things are going)

As far as I can see all I'm doing is paying money to provide a community service and support jobs in agri business/merchants and my fellow dairy farmer and I'm not continuing to get more kicks in the teeth when it comes time to sell

Get used to the idea that dairy calves will be given for free (like the knackeries used to accept/collect a fallen animal for you and you thought that was bad enough) or you will have to pay a lad like me to take them (like the knackeries do now) as a community service and take that chance that they might have a bit of a twist in them


There's no malice in this but that's the way its going eventually imo if things keep going the way they have been. It makes no sense as a business and there's plenty more astute farmers/business people out there than me and the thicker ones will surely get the message eventually

That's just one of the consequences of dairy expansion at all costs and driving production/efficiency food harvest 2020 without seemingly a thought for knock on effects or sustainability for farmers as community of interlinked business people.........under a guise of competitiveness and efficiency the disastrous mantra thats been pushed (to make the almighty shareholder happy) is well on the way to driving another business and its associated businesses into unsustainability.

K.G.

amacca wrote: »

I do calf to beef (perhaps not as efficiently as some) prior to this year I had been building up a network of suppliers of decent quality calves (dairy crosses mostly) .... at current prices the numbers just don't stack up, I'm not going to pay money just to work like a dog......

What I do is essentially take up to a two year bet on an animal that they will leave behind approx 100 -200 per head (like I said not as efficient as some)

To take that bet (for ****ing peanuts afaic) I have to raise the calf from about 3 weeks of age so that means

Pay for milk replacer approx bag and a half per calf (no point buying the ****e or underfeeding - you are only costing yourself more time and money with health issues to solve) ....so between 50 and 75 euro straight away

Then they will get ration (I like to feed a lot when young and give them a good start) so approx 50 euro for first year per calf

Then they usually need to be dehorned, squeezed (but we won't count my time or the equipment needed to do that or the housing facilities or straw come to think of it)

As if that wasn't enough the greedy bastards want to be fed over their first winter and it's best to supplement their feed unless you have unbelievable silage + give minerals approx

Also because they are dairy x the huars aren't nearly as developed as a suckler animal at the end of the second summer at grass (even with compensatory growth and all that) they are going to need a second wintering and associated costs to fetch any sort of a price at factory or mart - and some of them will amount to nothing because some cute farmer I bought off snuck in the odd screw here and there

Add on top of all that veterinary costs for worming and sickness + mortality (if you have livestock you'll have deadstock too as we all know) + the cost of testing

Don't forget diesel, insurance etc and then when I really think about I think about how much of a complete gob****e I must be if I kept at it

I'll be downsizing initially to see if I can reduce costs and labour and make it more worthwhile and then I'll be looking for something else (mercifully dairying isn't an option as I reckon that would be a way for me to lose even more money the way things are going)

As far as I can see all I'm doing is paying money to provide a community service and support jobs in agri business/merchants and my fellow dairy farmer and I'm not continuing to get more kicks in the teeth when it comes time to sell

Get used to the idea that dairy calves will be given for free (like the knackeries used to do) or you will have to pay a lad like me to take them (like the knackeries do now) as a community service and take that chance that they might have a bit of a twist in them


There's no malice in this but that's the way its going eventually imo if things keep going the way they have been

That's just one of the consequences of dairy expansion at all costs and driving production/efficiency food harvest 2020 without seemingky a thought for knock on effects or sustainability for farmers as a whole on the island.

On both sides there s a bit of raving going on.there has to e a massive restructuring of the dry stock business just like is going on in dairy and has happened in pigs and tillage.calves are worth what someone will pay for them but beef lads should realise they are not the only customer's either.look where the wranling trade would be only for export.a quick suevey here how many kgs of beef are people producing from their farm unit

amacca

K.G. wrote: »

On both sides there s a bit of raving going on.there has to e a massive restructuring of the dry stock business just like is going on in dairy and has happened in pigs and tillage.calves are worth what someone will pay for them but beef lads should realise they are not the only customer's either.look where the wranling trade would be only for export.a quick suevey here how many kgs of beef are people producing from their farm unit

The first bit of restructuring I'm doing is not listening to word of advice that isn't provided by the "voices in my head tm" ....that way I only have myself to blame!

Morris Moss

grassroot1 wrote: »

They might wish to but they will in their fork
Any heavily stocked dairy farm know the work involved in rearing calves.

But ya are rearing the calf if ya have him for 2 months like some lads are suggesting, they'd nearly be weaned at that stage, if ya can't keep a calf after that ya may forget about it.

grassroot1

Morris Moss wrote: »

But ya are rearing the calf if ya have him for 2 months like some lads are suggesting, they'd nearly be weaned at that stage, if ya can't keep a calf after that ya may forget about it.

2 months is a long time rearing calves and calving cows on your own
What would you do with the calf after 6 months or a year or 2 years? Keep it to loose money selling to Larry unlikely
The serious dairy farmers wont waste time or money at that craic

Morris Moss

amacca wrote: »

I do calf to beef (perhaps not as efficiently as some) prior to this year I had been building up a network of suppliers of decent quality calves (dairy crosses mostly) .... at current prices the numbers just don't stack up, I'm not going to pay money just to work like a dog......

What I do is essentially take up to a two year bet on an animal that they will leave behind approx 100 -200 per head (like I said not as efficient as some)

To take that bet (for ****ing peanuts afaic) I have to raise the calf from about 3 weeks of age so that means

Pay for milk replacer approx bag and a half per calf (no point buying the ****e or underfeeding - you are only costing yourself more time and money with health issues to solve) ....so between 50 and 75 euro straight away

Then they will get ration (I like to feed a lot when young and give them a good start) so approx 50 euro for first year per calf

Then they usually need to be dehorned, squeezed (but we won't count my time or the equipment needed to do that or the housing facilities or straw come to think of it)

As if that wasn't enough the greedy bastards want to be fed over their first winter and it's best to supplement their feed unless you have unbelievable silage + give minerals approx

Also because they are dairy x the huars aren't nearly as developed as a suckler animal at the end of the second summer at grass (even with compensatory growth and all that) they are going to need a second wintering and associated costs to fetch any sort of a price at factory or mart - and some of them will amount to nothing because some cute farmer I bought off snuck in the odd screw here and there

Add on top of all that veterinary costs for worming and sickness + mortality (if you have livestock you'll have deadstock too as we all know) + the cost of testing

Don't forget diesel, insurance etc and then when I really think about I think about how much of a complete gob****e I must be if I kept at it

I'll be downsizing initially to see if I can reduce costs and labour and make it more worthwhile and then I'll be looking for something else (mercifully dairying isn't an option as I reckon that would be a way for me to lose even more money the way things are going)

As far as I can see all I'm doing is paying money to provide a community service and support jobs in agri business/merchants and my fellow dairy farmer and I'm not continuing to get more kicks in the teeth when it comes time to sell

Get used to the idea that dairy calves will be given for free (like the knackeries used to accept/collect a fallen animal for you and you thought that was bad enough) or you will have to pay a lad like me to take them (like the knackeries do now) as a community service and take that chance that they might have a bit of a twist in them


There's no malice in this but that's the way its going eventually imo if things keep going the way they have been. It makes no sense as a business and there's plenty more astute farmers/business people out there than me and the thicker ones will surely get the message eventually

That's just one of the consequences of dairy expansion at all costs and driving production/efficiency food harvest 2020 without seemingly a thought for knock on effects or sustainability for farmers as community of interlinked business people.........under a guise of competitiveness and efficiency the disastrous mantra thats been pushed (to make the almighty shareholder happy) is well on the way to driving another business and its associated businesses into unsustainability.

I've no problems selling animals for small money but I won't be rearing them for lads either, I'll sell at 3 weeks and see what happens.

Morris Moss

grassroot1 wrote: »

2 months is a long time rearing calves and calving cows on your own
What would you do with the calf after 6 months or a year or 2 years? Keep it to loose money selling to Larry unlikely
The serious dairy farmers wont waste time or money at that craic

Well I don't intend to, I'll be selling at 3 weeks this coming year.

amacca

Morris Moss wrote: »

I've no problems selling animals for small money but I won't be rearing them for lads either, I'll sell at 3 weeks and see what happens.

And that will probably work out grand.......until it doesn't.

Markcheese

If a dairy farm has to keep dairy bull calves for 8 to 12 weeks thats veal...
And what's the difference between that and Bobby calf veal? Either the truck calls round every couple of days or they're delivered direct to the factory, how much would dairy farmers pay to be rid of the extreme dairy calves?
(personally, it seems a bit rough but what's the difference?, and better than shooting them on farm,)

Mac Taylor

Morris Moss wrote: »

Well I don't intend to, I'll be selling at 3 weeks this coming year.

Hopefully, there will be someone to buy them.......

Albert Johnson

Fair play Amacca for offering a viewpoint from a sector of farmers that have been totally neglected in recent years in favor of buzz words such as expansion and efficiency at all costs. I do believe that we're fast approaching the point of no return on several issues regarding agriculture in this country and yet there's no appetite for change of any measure.

Something that has occurred to me of late is that the worst thing to happen beef farming in this country imo is so called "efficiency". Efficiency without profitablity is a non runner in my experience and I'm of the opinion that we're seeing the results of this atm. Increased efficiency is the stock answer for all queries relating to profitability in recent years. Some oxygen thief with more money than sense is then paraded out as a teagasc poster boy having spent lorry loads of cash so that he could end up with a bundle of fancy weanlings, a shed full of cows for the winter and lots of ideas for a placard at the next beef protests.

All state funded efforts have failed to show a profit despite limitless resources because it's all but impossible to win with the current strangle hold a select few have over the industry. No matter how hard you try there's always something else to blame for low (no) returns but try harder and next year will be different we're told. It's an eternal case of "this time next year Rodney" only that next year the goal posts have changed, the price has gone down and we're running harder and harder to stand still. There's problems every where but no solutions from what I can see without​ a total over haul of the way we do business but seemingly the power's that be have zero interest in the like. At the minute it's a case of tails they win and head's we lose in my opinion anyway. I wish my dairy farmer brethren continued success but I do believe that when there finished with us poor fools in the beef sector that the so called "white gold" is next.

Danzy

Morris Moss wrote: »

Sorry now but do you honestly think lads are going to keep calves for 2 months and then let them off for next to nothing? You'd be better of keeping them if that's the case.

That is up to them, it isn't what I think is the right way but I see it happening.

What happens when the dairy man is told you can't sell them before 2 months?

Like in some places in Europe already?


If they have out farms and the time, rear away.

Looking out across the Glen at Billy's 325 Cows. I can't see him wanting to carry their calves for long.

He certainly won't keep them the following winter, hard to see him putting them out to grass and giving them a bit of ration , that's some heap 9f ration each day for a busy man etc.


Lot of lads will be like that I reckon, they have enough to be doing and better to concentrate on Betsy milking cash out of each qtr, than scour, pneumonia and all of it.

Enough will have the facilities, ability to manage, etc but there will be a glut of calves no matter the cost to the dairy man.

Essentially they are a waste by product at the most extreme interpretation of dairy farming.

Danzy

Markcheese wrote: »

If a dairy farm has to keep dairy bull calves for 8 to 12 weeks thats veal...
And what's the difference between that and Bobby calf veal? Either the truck calls round every couple of days or they're delivered direct to the factory, how much would dairy farmers pay to be rid of the extreme dairy calves?
(personally, it seems a bit rough but what's the difference?, and better than shooting them on farm,)

Pr difference.

Mac Taylor

Albert Johnson wrote: »

Fair play Amacca for offering a viewpoint from a sector of farmers that have been totally neglected in recent years in favor of buzz words such as expansion and efficiency at all costs. I do believe that we're fast approaching the point of no return on several issues regarding agriculture in this country and yet there's no appetite for change of any measure.

Something that has occurred to me of late is that the worst thing to happen beef farming in this country imo is so called "efficiency". Efficiency without profitablity is a non runner in my experience and I'm of the opinion that we're seeing the results of this atm. Increased efficiency is the stock answer for all queries relating to profitability in recent years. Some oxygen thief with more money than sense is then paraded out as a teagasc poster boy having spent lorry loads of cash so that he could end up with a bundle of fancy weanlings, a shed full of cows for the winter and lots of ideas for a placard at the next beef protests.

All state funded efforts have failed to show a profit despite limitless resources because it's all but impossible to win with the current strangle hold a select few have over the industry. No matter how hard you try there's always something else to blame for low (no) returns but try harder and next year will be different we're told. It's an eternal case of "this time next year Rodney" only that next year the goal posts have changed, the price has gone down and we're running harder and harder to stand still. There's problems every where but no solutions from what I can see without​ a total over haul of the way we do business but seemingly the power's that be have zero interest in the like. At the minute it's a case of tails they win and head's we lose in my opinion anyway. I wish my dairy farmer brethren continued success but I do believe that when there finished with us poor fools in the beef sector that the so called "white gold" is next.

Efficiency when utilized properly should in theory increase your profits or help to stem short term losses, but if your business model is fundamentally wrong and loss making then being more efficient at producing a loss making product with no future is pointless. Any normal business would carry out a review of the market and determine if their product/business model has a future. The current Beef farming model is not an effective business model for the primary producer.

Albert Johnson

Mac Taylor wrote: »

Efficiency when utilized properly should in theory increase your profits or help to stem short term losses, but if your business model is fundamentally wrong and loss making then being more efficient at producing a loss making product with no future is pointless. Any normal business would carry out a review of the market and determine if their product/business model has a future. The current Beef farming model is not an effective business model for the primary producer.

I think your last sentence sums up the entire debacle, we (the primary producer) are not benefiting from our input into the beef sector. The million dollar question in my mind is whether other vested interests are benefiting and whether there is enough of a return available to offer sufficient renumeration to the primary producer. If the answer to this question is yes then how do we go about ensuring that all player's are fairly rewarded for there contribution. However if the answer is no then I'm afraid it's​ curtains for the beef sector and all associated with it. If the beef sector is to be lost then what will we do with the farm's and the people or are we resigned to forestry monocultures with the occasional ranch producing more fabled "white gold".

Mac Taylor

Albert Johnson wrote: »

I think your last sentence sums up the entire debacle, we (the primary producer) are not benefiting from our input into the beef sector. The million dollar question in my mind is whether other vested interests are benefiting and whether there is enough of a return available to offer sufficient renumeration to the primary producer. If the answer to this question is yes then how do we go about ensuring that all player's are fairly rewarded for there contribution. However if the answer is no then I'm afraid it's​ curtains for the beef sector and all associated with it. If the beef sector is to be lost then what will we do with the farm's and the people or are we resigned to forestry monocultures with the occasional ranch producing more fabled "white gold".

To answer your first question, until the competition authority or some other state body carries out some proper research who knows, one thing I do know is that the risk and reward in the beef industry is screwed up, again the primary producer has the majority of the risk, get cow in calf, calf cow, ensure calf lives, tb, pneumonia the list is endless yet is expected to produce below cost.

To answer your second question, if the beef industry cannot afford the primary producer then its came over for rural Ireland and all of those dependent upon the farmer (in its current format) personally I’d like to see us move to a environmentally positive model. Keep a few animals to keep the place in check, no artificial inputs and be paid for carbon sequestration. History is full of businesses and business models that were once profitable but no longer around, video rentals, virgin stores, Kodak, the majority of high street businesses

Albert Johnson

Mac Taylor wrote: »

To answer your first question, until the competition authority or some other state body carries out some proper research who knows, one thing I do know is that the risk and reward in the beef industry is screwed up, again the primary producer has the majority of the risk, get cow in calf, calf cow, ensure calf lives, tb, pneumonia the list is endless yet is expected to produce below cost.

To answer your second question, if the beef industry cannot afford the primary producer then its came over for rural Ireland and all of those dependent upon the farmer (in its current format) personally I’d like to see us move to a environmentally positive model. Keep a few animals to keep the place in check, no artificial inputs and be paid for carbon sequestration. History is full of businesses and business models that were once profitable but no longer around, video rentals, virgin stores, Kodak, the majority of high street businesses

Again I agree regarding the need for some outside impartial input (if the like exists anymore). The entire setup is weighed against us at the current time and we're suffocating under this weight.

I'd also like to see a more environmental and community based model being implemented going forward. However I don't think farming is totally comparable to the likes of your high street businesses as there's a whole way of life built around farming (rural Ireland) that isn't apparent in other businesses. Yes the demise of Kodak and similar had an impact on the wider community but I don't think it will be as far reaching as if one of the main stays of rural Ireland is let crumble before our eyes.

Mac Taylor

Albert Johnson wrote: »

Again I agree regarding the need for some outside impartial input (if the like exists anymore). The entire setup is weighed against us at the current time and we're suffocating under this weight.

I'd also like to see a more environmental and community based model being implemented going forward. However I don't think farming is totally comparable to the likes of your high street businesses as there's a whole way of life built around farming (rural Ireland) that isn't apparent in other businesses. Yes the demise of Kodak and similar had an impact on the wider community but I don't think it will be as far reaching as if one of the main stays of rural Ireland is let crumble before our eyes.

I know what you mean but if we don’t have a commercial basis to beef farming then we are little more than glorified tourist farms, I’m not sure how many of the ~4m inhabitants give a fiddlers about rural Ireland, look at general on-line comments, “farmers always complaining” “plenty jobs out there if you can’t make money stop farming” etc etc. don’t get me wrong, I hope I’m spoofing shyte and that this episode is only a bump in the road.

I just believe that there is a new norm coming to rural Ireland, where 40 years ago there was 8 full time farmers near me and 8 houses, today there is no full time farmer left and 24 houses. Of the 8 pt farmers, only 3/4 are farming commercially.

Say my name

https://twitter.com/farmersjournal/status/1191805132532592640?s=20

Morris Moss

Mac Taylor wrote: »

Hopefully, there will be someone to buy them.......

Early calves won't be a problem, it's the glut that will come in late February/early March that'll be hard to shift.

Albert Johnson

Mac Taylor wrote: »

I know what you mean but if we don’t have a commercial basis to beef farming then we are little more than glorified tourist farms, I’m not sure how many of the ~4m inhabitants give a fiddlers about rural Ireland, look at general on-line comments, “farmers always complaining” “plenty jobs out there if you can’t make money stop farming” etc etc. don’t get me wrong, I hope I’m spoofing shyte and that this episode is only a bump in the road.

I just believe that there is a new norm coming to rural Ireland, where 40 years ago there was 8 full time farmers near me and 8 houses, today there is no full time farmer left and 24 houses. Of the 8 pt farmers, only 3/4 are farming commercially.

The general public are largely indifferent to our cause and are quite happy to let us fail as there's cheaper and less troublesome ways of sourcing what we produce from elsewhere. Indeed I'm almost fully convinced that this has become a de facto governmental position due to there disinterest in attempting to find some solutions. If we can't make some sort of an economic argument for our survival then we're already dead on our feet and it's going to be a losing battle from here on in imo.

A new norm is most definitely a possibility but whether it will be a good or bad thing is what I'm somewhat apprehensive about. Yes certain areas have different strengths and nothing lasts forever, it's up to the residents of an area to make it work for them. However rural decline at least locally is rampant and if the only bit of agriculture that remains folds then you might as well close the door on this part of the North West. There's tourism and other factors at play but beef farming is the main stay around here and for all it's detractors no one has anything else to offer that will maintain the community that's left behind.

Danzy

Say my name wrote: »

https://twitter.com/farmersjournal/status/1191805132532592640?s=20

It really is cheeky shi7 that we have to pretend the EU cares about food standards or the environment now.

Say my name

Danzy wrote: »

It really is cheeky shi7 that we have to pretend the EU cares about food standards or the environment now.

Trade, trade and more trade for suits, commodity brokers and increased product and lower prices for ready meals, chippers and dog food.
More profit for Larry, Queally brothers, Glanbia's dogfood division, redmills pet food division, feedmills, etc, etc are all going to benefit from what's on this thread bar not one single farmer.

Anyway a diversion or a future target of frustration for farmers here..

https://twitter.com/potooleifj/status/1191838658099339266?s=20


If there's a future it's paddling your own canoe and producing your product ecologically and marketing your product yourself. That singular or a teeny tiny group.

The system is broken at the moment both milk and beef. It all went wrong when processers were given full control of the product (which they phuck up) and full control of the product price under the guise of commodity or supermarket price.
They've full control of the government too btw.

Ifa bringing in this supermarket ombudsman from the UK today is all optics as the ombudsman said herself this morning she has zero remitt on product price in the supermarkets just ensuring that price is paid to the processor.

Bass Reeves

There is a few things lads need to understand the first is that it is immaterial whether there is much difference between slaughter at 8 days or 8 weeks. If regs like this are bought in you have to work to these regs. None of us expect them next year but they are only 3-5 years away at most.

By bringing in a 6-8 week sale date it forces dairy farmers to breed a more commercial calf. This in turn makes it a more salable animal. But while rearing the calves to this would have logistical issues holding and finishing would have further issues. At present beef prices intensive production is loss making. For Amacca like many other calf to beef is looking at at present prices no longer an option. My own opinion is that every kg of beef produced with ration is loss making especially with dairy bred cattle even if beef crosses.

So what are the logistical issues for dairy farmers. If a dairy farmer has 150 cows and is rearing 35 heifers and 35 calves a year he will have 35 Fr bulls and 40 each of beef cross bulls and heifers. Stocked at 3 cows/HA and 35 replacements he need about 62-65 HA to carry his present stock.

If he decide to finish his 35 Fr bullocks and ho beef crosses. Assuming that heifers are slaughtered at 20 months and bullocks at 24 months he need another 30 HA to stock to near derogation limit.

The interesting thing is I know no beef farmers that are stocked at anywhere near this limit the highest stocked lads are operating around the =/- the 170kgs of N/HA . To stock there beef enterprise at or near this they be looking at 40 HA or a 100 acre farm in old money. And that is to slaughter before or during second winter. This is the calf to beef area that lads are exiting from/

Most dairy farmers forget that it is 5+ years ago since many had beef enterprises and costs have escalated and the beef price has fallen.

K.G.

Albert Johnson wrote: »

Fair play Amacca for offering a viewpoint from a sector of farmers that have been totally neglected in recent years in favor of buzz words such as expansion and efficiency at all costs. I do believe that we're fast approaching the point of no return on several issues regarding agriculture in this country and yet there's no appetite for change of any measure.

Something that has occurred to me of late is that the worst thing to happen beef farming in this country imo is so called "efficiency". Efficiency without profitablity is a non runner in my experience and I'm of the opinion that we're seeing the results of this atm. Increased efficiency is the stock answer for all queries relating to profitability in recent years. Some oxygen thief with more money than sense is then paraded out as a teagasc poster boy having spent lorry loads of cash so that he could end up with a bundle of fancy weanlings, a shed full of cows for the winter and lots of ideas for a placard at the next beef protests.

All state funded efforts have failed to show a profit despite limitless resources because it's all but impossible to win with the current strangle hold a select few have over the industry. No matter how hard you try there's always something else to blame for low (no) returns but try harder and next year will be different we're told. It's an eternal case of "this time next year Rodney" only that next year the goal posts have changed, the price has gone down and we're running harder and harder to stand still. There's problems every where but no solutions from what I can see without​ a total over haul of the way we do business but seemingly the power's that be have zero interest in the like. At the minute it's a case of tails they win and head's we lose in my opinion anyway. I wish my dairy farmer brethren continued success but I do believe that when there finished with us poor fools in the beef sector that the so called "white gold" is next.

Do people not realise that dairy guys are expanding just to stay in yhe business and that we are in the same margin falling situation that beef is just not as intense. Most guys will tell you that all they have done despite increased numbers is just maintained their position

Albert Johnson

K.G. wrote: »

Do people not realise that dairy guys are expanding just to stay in yhe business and that we are in the same margin falling situation that beef is just not as intense. Most guys will tell you that all they have done despite increased numbers is just maintained their position

There's been no dairying here or indeed locally in my lifetime so I'm not very well versed in the day to day workings of the industry but I was led to believe that it was experiencing a relative boom in recent years. I had assumed that much of the expansion and rise in new entrants was due to the removal of the shackles of quota and the chance of a fair reward for the effort expended. Perhaps​ I was wrong to have made this assumption and that the dread term "efficiency" was again at play.

If so and that much of the expansion is simply due to running faster to stand still then it's not a promising sign and mirrors what has occurred in the beef sector for the last 5+ years. The idea that the dairy boom is a thing of the past means that seemingly no one is safe from the wrath of the processor's and the whole house of cards is about to come crashing down upon us. To paraphrase Dick Gaughan, "If we don't fight soon they'll be nothing left to save".