Spring 2020..... 1.5m Dairy calves.... discuss.

alps

Neddyusa wrote: »

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/believe-it-or-not-we-never-considered-the-outcome-of-the-dairy-calves-teagasc/

Astonishing statement there from Pat Dillon

Its absolutely bananas..

How much more have they "overlooked' in other areas such as Ebi etc?

If we can (ever) put a true financial cost on "forgetting" about the calves, how does it change Ebi, and how wrong has it been in the past? What loss of correct breeding have we missed out on...

How fast can teagasc rectify this "oversight"?

Bass Reeves

Say my name wrote: »

That's the type of article where you could take anything from it.



Now what does dependence on slaughter mean? If an animal is born if it dies by human hand it's slaughter.
And reduce our dependence. Most would say calf slaughter is not a thing here and social media platforms from farmers are built on the very principle of putting down such talk. So does that mean he's on about the very act of that animal going to the factory at any age?

Another thing this man is head of teagasc. The be all and end all and our link to government policy. The link that brought about reducing carcase weights, protected urea, low emission slurry spreading, increasing pasture clover content, calling for more tree planting, all in a bid to reduce our Greenhouse gas output from agriculture in this country.
So why on earth would an organization that is actively supposed to be bringing about a reduction in our GHG ouput and helping the government reach national targets, talk from the other side of his mouth and by his very action of speaking about stopping or reducing live exports, bring about an action to multiply our national output of GHG's.
It sounds like he's trying to be all things to everyone and nothing to no one.

It's a great conversation to be having but I don't think people really know what the full implications of what they're talking about.

When he talks about dependence on slaughter he is speaking about the slaughtering of calves. There are two commercial realities. One is that as a business you can do what is the most profitable in this senario we could spread slurry and fertlizer 12 months of the year let it flow into rivers and streams stock at 6-10 cows to the HA and bury dead animals on farm. However we can do none of these things.

Dillion is just pointing out another commercial reality that is coming down the track. Yes Teagasc got it wrong but they were not the only one's so did most consultants and other's that pushed dairy expansion as if we could turn all land over to dairy production and afforrest the rest to balance carbon. Already we have seen Glanbia sprint away from the Greenfields project.

All Dillion is saying is that the commercial reality is that the slaughtering of young calves will not be commercially acceptable and the exporting of calves will not be allowed in a few years time. Yes he is admitting that the bodies looking at dairy expansion over the last 5-10 years were too focused on land access for dairy farmers (that is why leasing rules came into play and every scheme was pointed towards supporting dairy farmers from TAM's to GLAS and from cheap bank loans to fodder supports).

He is saying that we cannot depend on calf exporting lasting indefinitely. It immaterial what effect it has on GHC we will have to deal with it. Believe you me if he taught calf exports could go on for another 20 years he let it happen. He is looking down the line and stating the blindly F@@King obvious. Already we can no longer export by landbridge, not by any new EU rules just the commercial reality that no F@@King ferries between Ireland and the UK will allow us to put calf lorriers on board.

How long before EU directives ban or virtually ban the transport of calves under six months of age. All my life I have lived by the rule do not shoot the F@@King messenger. Listen to him and to what he says, analysis his message and avoid the issue.

I know the implication I am talking about. The first is that the Government need to bring in a suckler cow reduction payment in and fast. The like of IFA and the FJ need to stop looking for suckler cow supports. Dairy farmers need to receive clear signals from Co-op's PLC's and the Government what stocking rates will be tolerated and the consequences of producing non viable calves for beef production.

The other reality is that we need clear action from government and the EU regarding market control in food production to primary producers.

Say my name

Bass Reeves wrote: »

When he talks about dependence on slaughter he is speaking about the slaughtering of calves. There are two commercial realities. One is that as a business you can do what is the most profitable in this senario we could spread slurry and fertlizer 12 months of the year let it flow into rivers and streams stock at 6-10 cows to the HA and bury dead animals on farm. However we can do none of these things.

Dillion is just pointing out another commercial reality that is coming down the track. Yes Teagasc got it wrong but they were not the only one's so did most consultants and other's that pushed dairy expansion as if we could turn all land over to dairy production and afforrest the rest to balance carbon. Already we have seen Glanbia sprint away from the Greenfields project.

All Dillion is saying is that the commercial reality is that the slaughtering of young calves will not be commercially acceptable and the exporting of calves will not be allowed in a few years time. Yes he is admitting that the bodies looking at dairy expansion over the last 5-10 years were too focused on land access for dairy farmers (that is why leasing rules came into play and every scheme was pointed towards supporting dairy farmers from TAM's to GLAS and from cheap bank loans to fodder supports).

He is saying that we cannot depend on calf exporting lasting indefinitely. It immaterial what effect it has on GHC we will have to deal with it. Believe you me if he taught calf exports could go on for another 20 years he let it happen. He is looking down the line and stating the blindly F@@King obvious. Already we can no longer export by landbridge, not by any new EU rules just the commercial reality that no F@@King ferries between Ireland and the UK will allow us to put calf lorriers on board.

How long before EU directives ban or virtually ban the transport of calves under six months of age. All my life I have lived by the rule do not shoot the F@@King messenger. Listen to him and to what he says, analysis his message and avoid the issue.

I know the implication I am talking about. The first is that the Government need to bring in a suckler cow reduction payment in and fast. The like of IFA and the FJ need to stop looking for suckler cow supports. Dairy farmers need to receive clear signals from Co-op's PLC's and the Government what stocking rates will be tolerated and the consequences of producing non viable calves for beef production.

The other reality is that we need clear action from government and the EU regarding market control in food production to primary producers.

You know my position Bass.
I'm a dairy farmer who produces bull calves that usually have value and all things being done this year was the same for me financially with calves as the year before.
You're a buyer of store freisian bullocks who depends on the likes of me to breed my type but need to buy them at the lowest possible price for you to gain as much profit as possible.

Talking about fertilizer and slurry flowing into rivers has nothing to do with your argument. If anything with the increased stock in the country from all this stock being kept and reared in this country it has to do with mine and the filling up of farms with stock that never had or increasing the stocking rate on farms that have stock already.

You know my position so don't shoot my message either. Keeping all these extra stock in this country will lead to more environmental problems, welfare problems as you've more people that haven't a clue about rearing stock (Muckits goat like calves on roads) and will do it as cheaply as possible for their own ends, beef price pressure from the glut in the market, increased meal importation and fodder demand, GHG increases and don't fob that one off either as the fines will break the country.

For any bit of sense to prevail and sense of welfare. There needs to be sense that if you can't export the livestock and don't want the problems of above then there needs to be a calf slaughter system in place in this country.
Eventually...people will come around to it. It just needs to sink in. The hardest part is probably convincing some farmers.

Gawddawggonnit

alps wrote: »

Its absolutely bananas..

How much more have they "overlooked' in other areas such as Ebi etc?

If we can (ever) put a true financial cost on "forgetting" about the calves, how does it change Ebi, and how wrong has it been in the past? What loss of correct breeding have we missed out on...

How fast can teagasc rectify this "oversight"?

It goes a lot deeper than that Alps. ‘Overlooked’ or positively false research to justify the means?

Falsifying research on nitrates?
Mr. Humphreys total disregard of his own research to justify overuse of N? Yosemitesam posted plenty on this a couple of years ago...Sam even posted Humphreys own research that he directly contradicted to justify N overuse.
Funny how it was cheered on by those that benefited.

The advice from Teagasc during the drought/fodder crises? Even a gob****e like me was questioning the advice...’spread a bag’.

The lobbying for derogation. Spreading urea in Jan and providing research ‘evidence’ of the efficiency of such...

So we’re now in a position that newborn calves are going to be slaughtered because Teagasc didn’t even think of the consequences of dramatically increasing the dairy herd? I honestly don’t believe they can be serious! It’s up there with the ‘dog ate my homework’ excuses...


Sooner or later the chickens come home to roost. Heads should roll before irreparable damage is done to Irish agriculture.

jaymla627

alps wrote: »

Its absolutely bananas..

How much more have they "overlooked' in other areas such as Ebi etc?

If we can (ever) put a true financial cost on "forgetting" about the calves, how does it change Ebi, and how wrong has it been in the past? What loss of correct breeding have we missed out on...

How fast can teagasc rectify this "oversight"?

In a extreme example say a PB Jersey herd versus a PB fleck herd where all culls and calves produced on farm have to be finished on farm, the fleck herd would easily be 200 euro more on a properly weighted beef ebi index then the Jersey who would our should be minus 150 plus

wrangler

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

It goes a lot deeper than that Alps. ‘Overlooked’ or positively false research to justify the means?

Falsifying research on nitrates?
Mr. Humphreys total disregard of his own research to justify overuse of N? Yosemitesam posted plenty on this a couple of years ago...Sam even posted Humphreys own research that he directly contradicted to justify N overuse.
Funny how it was cheered on by those that benefited.

The advice from Teagasc during the drought/fodder crises? Even a gob****e like me was questioning the advice...’spread a bag’.

The lobbying for derogation. Spreading urea in Jan and providing research ‘evidence’ of the efficiency of such...

So we’re now in a position that newborn calves are going to be slaughtered because Teagasc didn’t even think of the consequences of dramatically increasing the dairy herd? I honestly don’t believe they can be serious! It’s up there with the ‘dog ate my homework’ excuses...


Sooner or later the chickens come home to roost. Heads should roll before irreparable damage is done to Irish agriculture.

Heads won't roll here in teh Public Service, which leads to complacency

kevthegaff

Bord Bia are auditing farms every 18months. Its beggars belief they dont count cubicle spaces and measure calf pens. Lads are stocked to the hilts on home ground and z grazing from miles away while spreading the majority of slurry on home block. Bb teagasc and dep have turned a blind eye as they were the ones that pushed this uncontrolled expansion. I have jerseys norgegians and fr in the herd here as imnon the side of a mountain, but its hard to see why they have been pushed on rich fertile land

Bass Reeves

Say my name wrote: »

You know my position Bass.
I'm a dairy farmer who produces bull calves that usually have value and all things being done this year was the same for me financially with calves as the year before.
You're a buyer of store freisian bullocks who depends on the likes of me to breed my type but need to buy them at the lowest possible price for you to gain as much profit as possible.

Talking about fertilizer and slurry flowing into rivers has nothing to do with your argument. If anything with the increased stock in the country from all this stock being kept and reared in this country it has to do with mine and the filling up of farms with stock that never had or increasing the stocking rate on farms that have stock already.

You know my position so don't shoot my message either. Keeping all these extra stock in this country will lead to more environmental problems, welfare problems as you've more people that haven't a clue about rearing stock (Muckits goat like calves on roads) and will do it as cheaply as possible for their own ends, beef price pressure from the glut in the market, increased meal importation and fodder demand, GHG increases and don't fob that one off either as the fines will break the country.

For any bit of sense to prevail and sense of welfare. There needs to be sense that if you can't export the livestock and don't want the problems of above then there needs to be a calf slaughter system in place in this country.
Eventually...people will come around to it. It just needs to sink in. The hardest part is probably convincing some farmers.

So you think there will be no issue with 100k calves being slaughtered in 3-5 years time. By the way that is a very conservative figure. If exports are banned (and IMO we are about 5 years away from this) the slaughter figure will be nearer 250k unless the industry adapts. So your rational is that we can do this and Kerry, Glanbia, Nesele Abbott and Danone will all have no issue with this. All the Co-op's will still collect your milk and the there will be no issue with a photo or video on social media one with the brand name of a PLC or Co-op on the side and the other a truck of 14-21 day old (or maybe an knackery lorry with dead calves) trundling out of the yard

2-3 years ago I started to highlight that we were starting to have an issue with the quality of beef calves. I said we starting to have a problem and it would accelerate . We are rapidly reaching the stage where this will become a commercial issue for Co-op's/PLC's and they will react in a commercial way.

Sorry for being so Stark but lads need to understand the reality of what is coming down the line. Dillion was only highlighting these issues. Over the last 3-4 years in dairy farming there has been a head in sand attitude to issues that are out there. There was a presumption that beef farmers would fall all over them to rear heifers at sub 1 euro/ day. We had the monster of outdoor pads, changing to outdoor cubicles and now we are 5-8 years away from all dairy cows having to be indoor for the winter. We have nitrates limits coming that will limit stocking levels at a cow/ acre. Dairy farmers will have to react and adapt faster over the next 5-8 years. He issue with calves is just one

kevthegaff

wrangler wrote: »

Heads won't roll here in teh Public Service, which leads to complacency

Your right, all will happen is more legislation to negate what has allready happened due to their stupidity

_Brian

Bass Reeves wrote: »

So you think there will be no issue with 100k calves being slaughtered in 3-5 years time. By the way that is a very conservative figure. If exports are banned (and IMO we are about 5 years away from this) the slaughter figure will be nearer 250k unless the industry adapts. So your rational is that we can do this and Kerry, Glanbia, Nesele Abbott and Danone will all have no issue with this. All the Co-op's will still collect your milk and the there will be no issue with a photo or video on social media one with the brand name of a PLC or Co-op on the side and the other a truck of 14-21 day old (or maybe an knackery lorry with dead calves) trundling out of the yard

2-3 years ago I started to highlight that we were starting to have an issue with the quality of beef calves. I said we starting to have a problem and it would accelerate . We are rapidly reaching the stage where this will become a commercial issue for Co-op's/PLC's and they will react in a commercial way.

Sorry for being so Stark but lads need to understand the reality of what is coming down the line. Dillion was only highlighting these issues. Over the last 3-4 years in dairy farming there has been a head in sand attitude to issues that are out there. There was a presumption that beef farmers would fall all over them to rear heifers at sub 1 euro/ day. We had the monster of outdoor pads, changing to outdoor cubicles and now we are 5-8 years away from all dairy cows having to be indoor for the winter. We have nitrates limits coming that will limit stocking levels at a cow/ acre. Dairy farmers will have to react and adapt faster over the next 5-8 years. He issue with calves is just one

Absolutely agree on live export.
The clock is ticking on any live export and if alternatives are not introduced for both calves and weanlings exports then bigger issues are ahead.

Say my name

Bass Reeves wrote: »

So you think there will be no issue with 100k calves being slaughtered in 3-5 years time. By the way that is a very conservative figure. If exports are banned (and IMO we are about 5 years away from this) the slaughter figure will be nearer 250k unless the industry adapts. So your rational is that we can do this and Kerry, Glanbia, Nesele Abbott and Danone will all have no issue with this. All the Co-op's will still collect your milk and the there will be no issue with a photo or video on social media one with the brand name of a PLC or Co-op on the side and the other a truck of 14-21 day old (or maybe an knackery lorry with dead calves) trundling out of the yard

2-3 years ago I started to highlight that we were starting to have an issue with the quality of beef calves. I said we starting to have a problem and it would accelerate . We are rapidly reaching the stage where this will become a commercial issue for Co-op's/PLC's and they will react in a commercial way.

Sorry for being so Stark but lads need to understand the reality of what is coming down the line. Dillion was only highlighting these issues. Over the last 3-4 years in dairy farming there has been a head in sand attitude to issues that are out there. There was a presumption that beef farmers would fall all over them to rear heifers at sub 1 euro/ day. We had the monster of outdoor pads, changing to outdoor cubicles and now we are 5-8 years away from all dairy cows having to be indoor for the winter. We have nitrates limits coming that will limit stocking levels at a cow/ acre. Dairy farmers will have to react and adapt faster over the next 5-8 years. He issue with calves is just one

You give great long essays
Doesn't mean you're always correct though.

Why would there be pictures of knackery lorries coming out of farms with calves?
What happens at the moment? Calves are slaughtered in dept approved premises.

The alternative to this is I'll repeat it again.
An increase in the country's stocking rate, a low beef price, farmers keeping calves that have no experience of keeping calves, malnourished calves from these farmers, welfare problems, an increase in our calculated GHG's and the country fined to the bollox, an increase in land needed for fodder and more imported grain needed, throw in more water pollution pressure from these extra stock if you will if you want.

Dairy expansion happened I had no hand or part in it myself. Well I got fifteen more cows...
If exports are dropped and that includes potentially all ages. Sensible solutions will have to be discussed.

grassroot1

Bass Reeves wrote: »

The first is that the Government need to bring in a suckler cow reduction payment in and fast. The like of IFA and the FJ need to stop looking for suckler cow supports. Dairy farmers need to receive clear signals from Co-op's PLC's and the Government what stocking rates will be tolerated and the consequences of producing non viable calves for beef production.

Don't care whether you cull suckler cows to save the dairy man but if you think bucket reared calves are going to live on the type of grazing suckler cows live on in the west. I cant see it.

Buford T. Justice XIX

_Brian wrote: »

Absolutely agree on live export.
The clock is ticking on any live export and if alternatives are not introduced for both calves and weanlings exports then bigger issues are ahead.

Live export will be around for a long time to come.

All the research is pointing towards calves being bought and sold in the mart having higher stress levels and poorer health outcomes than calves exported to the continent.

The figures are there in black and white. That's why the amount of anti live exports campaigners following the trucks around Europe have found absolutely no thing to hang their campaign on, bar mistreatment of calves by poorly paid individuals in lairages after landing at their destinations.

Siamsa Sessions

alps wrote: »

How much more have they "overlooked' in other areas such as Ebi etc?

How fast can teagasc rectify this "oversight"?

Teagasc are damaged by this admission on dairy calves. Whatever about the need to move on and the truth in Pat Dillon's statements, what little trust farmers had in Teagasc will be further diminished now.

No matter what Teagasc say from here on, this "Sure we never thought about the calves" episode will be thrown at them and it will undermine any new advice they offer for any enterprise.

Assuming they still do advice for non-dairy enterprises

Bass Reeves

Say my name wrote: »

You give great long essays
Doesn't mean you're always correct though.

Why would there be pictures of knackery lorries coming out of farms with calves?
What happens at the moment? Calves are slaughtered in dept approved premises.

The alternative to this is I'll repeat it again.
An increase in the country's stocking rate, a low beef price, farmers keeping calves that have no experience of keeping calves, malnourished calves from these farmers, welfare problems, an increase in our calculated GHG's and the country fined to the bollox, an increase in land needed for fodder and more imported grain needed, throw in more water pollution pressure from these extra stock if you will if you want.

Dairy expansion happened I had no hand or part in it myself. Well I got fifteen more cows...
If exports are dropped and that includes potentially all ages. Sensible solutions will have to be discussed.

Call it an essay or analysis take your pick.

Why would there be a problem in the years 2015 and 2016 we slaughtered 5.7K cattle under 12 months of age. I have no figure for 2017 but sub 10K in 2018 to above 14K this year(projected). That is an approx 45% rise. At that sort of rise we will hit over 21K next year. However the rise seem exponential that is it is getting greater every year from a standing start in 2015&2016. Those could be called base year's as this is a natural level of slaughtering due to issue with broken legs damage to shoulders etc which may be a reason for this level of slaughter.

As the issue gets greater you have a greater number of farmers doing it. This gives a better chance of someone getting onto a farm as a worker and filming unsavory practices that will happen as the trend continues. You only have to loos at the lairage film's from France last spring and the slaughter films from Poland the last year.

Say my name

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Call it an essay or analysis take your pick.

Why would there be a problem in the years 2015 and 2016 we slaughtered 5.7K cattle under 12 months of age. I have no figure for 2017 but sub 10K in 2018 to above 14K this year(projected). That is an approx 45% rise. At that sort of rise we will hit over 21K next year. However the rise seem exponential that is it is getting greater every year from a standing start in 2015&2016. Those could be called base year's as this is a natural level of slaughtering due to issue with broken legs damage to shoulders etc which may be a reason for this level of slaughter.

As the issue gets greater you have a greater number of farmers doing it. This gives a better chance of someone getting onto a farm as a worker and filming unsavory practices that will happen as the trend continues. You only have to loos at the lairage film's from France last spring and the slaughter films from Poland the last year.

You're the numbers man Bass so I couldn't tell you, I'll take your word for it.

I'll repeat it again dept approved abattoirs.
It'd be the very same as bringing the calf to the Mart only it doesn't come home from the Mart.

wrangler

kevthegaff wrote: »

Bord Bia are auditing farms every 18months. Its beggars belief they dont count cubicle spaces and measure calf pens. Lads are stocked to the hilts on home ground and z grazing from miles away while spreading the majority of slurry on home block. Bb teagasc and dep have turned a blind eye as they were the ones that pushed this uncontrolled expansion. I have jerseys norgegians and fr in the herd here as imnon the side of a mountain, but its hard to see why they have been pushed on rich fertile land

Why are farmers let off the hook so easily. no one twists their arm to be irresponsible.
I was in IFA when quotas ceased and the buzzword then was ''sustainable'' expansion so it's not as if it wasn't preached at farmers even then.
They chose to ignore it and we are where we are, Dr Pat Wall used to claim that BSE for farmers was Blame Someone Else and I see so much of it on here

Bass Reeves

Say my name wrote: »

You're the numbers man Bass so I couldn't tell you, I'll take your word for it.

I'll repeat it again dept approved abattoirs.
It'd be the very same as bringing the calf to the Mart only it doesn't come home from the Mart.

Yes dept approved. But not approved by Kerry, Glanbia, Abbott, Nessle, Danone, Tesco's LIDL, ALDI the list is endless. Accepted at present but that is not an endless licience.

Ask any executive in these organisations where do they see this issue going and dept approved slaughter is not on the agenda. Dillon was only giving an opinion that farmers should not become dependent on this and the export option.

Yes Buford hauliers and the Dept have been ultra careful and yes calves may be as stressed in a mart. Mind you most export calves appear in the mart as well. Most stress happen at the start of an environment change. They say the biggest stress a human has is being born.

There is however outside perception. This perception is that hauling calves at 2-3 eeks of age for 2-3 days is unacceptable. There are other commercial issues. Our correspondent from France days there is a negative perception of the calves that arrived last year.

How will this effect calf price this year will calf exporters become fussier. We reported about 200k last year can we hit that numbers this year. If poor farmer demand in Ireland Will exporter's pick up the slack.

If I was a lad buying calves off farms this year I be bolsie. I be looking for Friesians to be 3-4 weeks old and be paying sub 100/ head. AA bulls the same along with HE Heifers. 200 max for HE bull calves the same age.

And I expect exported numbers to struggle to hit last year's numbers.

kevthegaff

wrangler wrote: »

Why are farmers let off the hook so easily. no one twists their arm to be irresponsible.
I was in IFA when quotas ceased and the buzzword then was ''sustainable'' expansion so it's not as if it wasn't preached at farmers even then.
They chose to ignore it and we are where we are, Dr Pat Wall used to claim that BSE for farmers was Blame Someone Else and I see so much of it on here

I agree but derogation is a path for a farmer to overstock their home block leading to more pollution due to slurry and higher usage of fertiliser. As inputs are rising and prices are stagnant farmers have had to expand but on also advice from teagasc with a blind eye from dep and bb. If parameters aren't in place the law will always be tested. This has led to water quality issues and now welfare issues around the corners with dairy calves. Everyone can take the blame but I believe the biggest winners are the processors, teagasc (more jobs) bOrd bia. I'm a dairy farmer myself and the media coverage we will get and are getting is worrying for the future. This and the higher levels of work load will turn the next generations away from what was a good way of life.

Siamsa Sessions

The whole thing is a mess but I genuinely hope someone responsible in the Dept takes the time to read this thread. You can see the honestly held views fellas have, presented in plain language, and some obvious home-truths that nobody in the Dept, Teagasc, Bord Bia, ABP, Tesco, etc. ever wanted to admit.

The main problem as ever is that Officialdom will look to the same old faces for solutions, rather than reading the likes of this thread to get a real sense of the issue and then pick up on some of the options thrown out here. But what are the chances they will take advice from people who wear wellingtons?

yewtree

The solutions to this are inside the farm gate blaming teagasc or anyone else in nonsense. Dairy farms will have to reduce the amount of low value calves they produce, rear calves for longer and take less for the calves but none of that will cause any farms to go out of buisness. Its small change in the larger scheme of things.
Expansion of the dairy herd is down to economics. Dairy cows are the only viable livestock enterprise. If you look on the mart price thread you would have to say the suckler cow is at the end of the road.
Say what you want about xbred cows but at least they dont need hand out after hand out to just about break even.

mahoney_j

yewtree wrote: »

The solutions to this are inside the farm gate blaming teagasc or anyone else in nonsense. Dairy farms will have to reduce the amount of low value calves they produce, rear calves for longer and take less for the calves but none of that will cause any farms to go out of buisness. Its small change in the larger scheme of things.
Expansion of the dairy herd is down to economics. Dairy cows are the only viable livestock enterprise. If you look on the mart price thread you would have to say the suckler cow is at the end of the road.
Say what you want about xbred cows but at least they dont need hand out after hand out to just about break even.

Tegasc promoted and shoved expansion and x bred ainmals on us ad lib they have to be accountable ,pat dillon came out last night hands up and said little to no consideration was given to calves ,fair play to him but then he also said expansion will continue to be promoted ,ffs Lawrence shallo fobbed off a question I asked at moorepark this year as to what orvwhere all this extra milk will go this is from a leading advisor in our leading state advisory body .
I’m sick of hearing from ornua ,tegasc ,coops as to our hive advantage from grass fed milk ,our premium products ,kerrygold brand .products are premium but our price in cent per liter or kgms nowhere near reflects it especially when u look to continent where Dutch /French etc farmers are receiving 4/5/6 cent a liter for what were been led to believe is an inferior product from cows in sheds
Producing low value calves is only some of the problem ,sexed semen is been held as a chink of light or a solution it still won’t solve the actual calf number problem .next spring is going to be very interesting only so many calves can be exported and if were honest the day of exporting young calves is numbered ,what beef man is going to buy and rear calves with that industry in tatters .lots of calves will go for kebabs we gave years building our clean green image young calves going that route dosnt exactly fit the image
Last statement re x bred cows not needing hand out after hand out not exactly true

jaymla627

yewtree wrote: »

The solutions to this are inside the farm gate blaming teagasc or anyone else in nonsense. Dairy farms will have to reduce the amount of low value calves they produce, rear calves for longer and take less for the calves but none of that will cause any farms to go out of buisness. Its small change in the larger scheme of things.
Expansion of the dairy herd is down to economics. Dairy cows are the only viable livestock enterprise. If you look on the mart price thread you would have to say the suckler cow is at the end of the road.
Say what you want about xbred cows but at least they dont need hand out after hand out to just about break even.

Any dairy farmer that has drawn down a tams grant has got a handout to be fair, why this money isn't been redirected into supports for the beef sector our towards grants for renewable energy incentives from agriculture is baffling

yewtree

mahoney_j wrote: »

Tegasc promoted and shoved expansion and x bred ainmals on us ad lib they have to be accountable ,pat dillon came out last night hands up and said little to no consideration was given to calves ,fair play to him but then he also said expansion will continue to be promoted ,ffs Lawrence shallo fobbed off a question I asked at moorepark this year as to what orvwhere all this extra milk will go this is from a leading advisor in our leading state advisory body .
I’m sick of hearing from ornua ,tegasc ,coops as to our hive advantage from grass fed milk ,our premium products ,kerrygold brand .products are premium but our price in cent per liter or kgms nowhere near reflects it especially when u look to continent where Dutch /French etc farmers are receiving 4/5/6 cent a liter for what were been led to believe is an inferior product from cows in sheds
Producing low value calves is only some of the problem ,sexed semen is been held as a chink of light or a solution it still won’t solve the actual calf number problem .next spring is going to be very interesting only so many calves can be exported and if were honest the day of exporting young calves is numbered ,what beef man is going to buy and rear calves with that industry in tatters .lots of calves will go for kebabs we gave years building our clean green image young calves going that route dosnt exactly fit the image
Last statement re x bred cows not needing hand out after hand out not exactly true

All fair enough points.
But what options are there for lads who want to increase income on their farms.
There are a few lads in my DG who have doubled cow numbers all did it so a second family member could make a living on the farm. Most got rid of beef and sheep to make room for more cows.
If beef farming was viable there would have been a lot less dairy expansion.

mahoney_j

yewtree wrote: »

All fair enough points.
But what options are there for lads who want to increase income on their farms.
There are a few lads in my DG who have doubled cow numbers all did it so a second family member could make a living on the farm. Most got rid of beef and sheep to make room for more cows.
If beef farming was viable there would have been a lot less dairy expansion.

Genuine question was beef/suckler farming thrown under the bus for dairy farmers gain all the buzz words for last few years revolves around the dairy cow .....

Panch18

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

The whole thing is a mess but I genuinely hope someone responsible in the Dept takes the time to read this thread. You can see the honestly held views fellas have, presented in plain language, and some obvious home-truths that nobody in the Dept, Teagasc, Bord Bia, ABP, Tesco, etc. ever wanted to admit.

The main problem as ever is that Officialdom will look to the same old faces for solutions, rather than reading the likes of this thread to get a real sense of the issue and then pick up on some of the options thrown out here. But what are the chances they will take advice from people who wear wellingtons?

IF you think that this thread is some kind of bible for this then you are sadly mistaken

It is blindingly obvious that certain posters are posting an agenda to suit themselves and putting out statements as gospel.

_Brian

mahoney_j wrote: »

Genuine question was beef/suckler farming thrown under the bus for dairy farmers gain all the buzz words for last few years revolves around the dairy cow .....

In what way ??

If beef from the dairy wasn’t marketable it wouldn’t have made any difference.
If it’s competing and hurting suckler reared beef maybe there is a message in there.

Long before dairy expansion there were a shocking amount of non viable suckler farms. Their day was numbered anyway.

I know lads love suckler herds but there is no god given right to push on with a non profitable model because it’s what you’ve always done and sher aren’t they nice to look at in the fields compared to Fr or HEx sucks.

Newsflash, the consumer cares less what animal their beef comes from. Yes live export customers like continental stock but that Avenue is on borrowed time anyway.

wrangler

mahoney_j wrote: »

Genuine question was beef/suckler farming thrown under the bus for dairy farmers gain all the buzz words for last few years revolves around the dairy cow .....

You couldn't recommend anyone to do any beef enterprise for over ten years now, you couldn't recommend tillage or sheep either. dairying was the buzzword because there was nothing else viable if you wanted to farm.
It's more that sucklers fell under a bus because of the persistent reduction of beef price and subsidies which teagasc, govt, etc have no control of

Panch18

mahoney_j wrote: »

Genuine question was beef/suckler farming thrown under the bus for dairy farmers gain all the buzz words for last few years revolves around the dairy cow .....

Sucklers was always a dead end game - they only made sense when there was a suckler quota and an era of high premia on a per head basis. That's why the number of suckler cows grew dratically in the 90's. What we are seeing now is a correction of that artificial inflation in numbers

I don't think they were thrown under a bus - its just that reality is starting to bite now

patsy_mccabe

Selling FR weanlings at €235 in autumn is hardly profitable is it?
I saw it with my own eyes.