Spring 2020..... 1.5m Dairy calves.... discuss.

_Brian

riemann wrote: »

You didn't block out those names btw.

Be grand
I tried, a real nosy bollox could always join the group and see them anyway 🙄

patsy_mccabe

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I think a few people would want to read the front page of today's FJ. This is not a few lads looking for thank you to posts. Neither is it a snap chat or face book phenomenon. This is coming down the road fast.

Throw up a pic. Haven't bought it in weeks.

jaymla627

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Throw up a pic. Haven't bought it in weeks.

Their is a good 6 pages on it, basically live exports are going to be curtailed, you wont be allowed to bobby them and unless you can find a victim sorry beef farmer to buy them and promise to rear them to beef, you'll be stuck giving Larry a good supply of cheap meat for the duration you stay milking cows....

K.G.

If you think this through its not the amount or the quality of the calves being born its the complete lack of profitability in beef in ireland.only way out of this is to lower the cost of producing beef because the end price is completely out of our hands.

Say my name

I don't particularly want to get back in this thread. I've made my points.

But..
Is there any precedence any where else in the world of what is being talked about?
I mean by a farmer led and pushed on to end live exports and slaughter?
It's not industry as it's from Ifa seminars but have one or two maybe from industry.
The one or two from industry say it should be a pre emptive decision we make before it's made for us and is all from potential internet footage and outrage.
Now here's the kicker for ye to consider.
There's considerable opposition online to artificial insemination with many calling it rape and abuse.
So going off the above decisions being talked about. Should we as farmers go one further and eliminate artificial insemination so we can hold our heads high and really please our milk buyers, teagasc, and consumers?

yosemitesam1

K.G. wrote: »

If you think this through its not the amount or the quality of the calves being born its the complete lack of profitability in beef in ireland.only way out of this is to lower the cost of producing beef because the end price is completely out of our hands.

Lowering the cost of beef production means lowering the cost of land and using it less intensively

alps

Say my name wrote: »

I don't particularly want to get back in this thread. I've made my points.

But..
Is there any precedence any where else in the world of what is being talked about?
I mean by a farmer led and pushed on to end live exports and slaughter?
It's not industry as it's from Ifa seminars but have one or two maybe from industry.
The one or two from industry say it should be a pre emptive decision we make before it's made for us and is all from potential internet footage and outrage.
Now here's the kicker for ye to consider.
There's considerable opposition online to artificial insemination with many calling it rape and abuse.
So going off the above decisions being talked about. Should we as farmers go one further and eliminate artificial insemination so we can hold our heads high and really please our milk buyers, teagasc, and consumers?

Lots of truths here tbf..

This is processor led, and very kindly facilitated by the lady in IFA who facilitated the expansion and share up programme for the same processors and given scientific credence by teagasc.....who forgot about the calves in the original plan...

Firstly these calves are slaughtered for a market and that market took what it was able to process and market. Next up was live exports, which again took what it could do to fulfill their market.

When pressure came on these 2 outlets and farm2farm trade we literally ended up with calves being dumped in the marts...actually abandoned by their owners..

The cruelty is not in the operations. The creal cruelty is where owners do not properly treat these calves before or during their route to market. This can include inadequate beistings, poor housing and poor nutrition..

Fraud is also prevalent regarding incorrect site and date of birth declarations...

What's being proposed is a mandatory protocol, effecting all farmers, due to the negligence of a few.

And yes, the main concern is that a programme a damning as the greyhound one either exists or is very close to airing..

Say my name

alps wrote: »

Lots of truths here tbf..

This is processor led, and very kindly facilitated by the lady in IFA who facilitated the expansion and share up programme for the same processors and given scientific credence by teagasc.....who forgot about the calves in the original plan...

Firstly these calves are slaughtered for a market and that market took what it was able to process and market. Next up was live exports, which again took what it could do to fulfill their market.

When pressure came on these 2 outlets and farm2farm trade we literally ended up with calves being dumped in the marts...actually abandoned by their owners..

The cruelty is not in the operations. The creal cruelty is where owners do not properly treat these calves before or during their route to market. This can include inadequate beistings, poor housing and poor nutrition..

Fraud is also prevalent regarding incorrect site and date of birth declarations...

What's being proposed is a mandatory protocol, effecting all farmers, due to the negligence of a few.

And yes, the main concern is that a programme a damning as the greyhound one either exists or is very close to airing..

How can any person, organization or body ensure that a calf is properly fed?
They're not exactly going to be on that persons shoulder inspecting their work.
If they can't sell those calves and there's no outlet and they've the place stocked to the hilt with cows and loans borrowed for expansion and definitely can't reduce cow numbers and are forced to keep those calves. You'll end up with farmers in severe depression and the whole herd will be neglected and that'll make for nice viewing.

The banning the artificial insemination is an idea though. It's rated on a par with all you posted by the online brigade.
Banning it would make more bull calves valuable. The ai companies would be gone. Money would flow between farmers instead of to suits. It'll be a world first and show we're serious about markets.

K.G.

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Lowering the cost of beef production means lowering the cost of land and using it less intensively

It also means increasing scale and simplifying the entire system just like the pig or poultry or at thid the tillage game.there cant be money for everyone in a beef animal as it done at the moment with maybe at least 3.owners plus various marts dealers and suppliers.i was talking to a substantial beef man and he suggested he buys his ratio 30 euros a ton cheaper than standard customers. And to be honest the mill still makes more out of him than average customers in that its all full loads and maybe 4 aweek almost every week.we get that classic tractor magazine and it alwayas strikes me the difference in scale between england and here.even here on iur farm we produce about 15 times what we produced in 86 and we were nearly as busy then as now.im just saying thers alot of improvement in efficiency required inthe irish beef sector

alps

K.G. wrote: »

It also means increasing scale and simplifying the entire system just like the pig or poultry or at thid the tillage game.there cant be money for everyone in a beef animal as it done at the moment with maybe at least 3.owners plus various marts dealers and suppliers.i was talking to a substantial beef man and he suggested he buys his ratio 30 euros a ton cheaper than standard customers. And to be honest the mill still makes more out of him than average customers in that its all full loads and maybe 4 aweek almost every week.we get that classic tractor magazine and it alwayas strikes me the difference in scale between england and here.even here on iur farm we produce about 15 times what we produced in 86 and we were nearly as busy then as now.im just saying thers alot of improvement in efficiency required inthe irish beef sector

I'd suggest that it's as near as efficient as you can get..

It's got free land and free labour...you wont get that by scaling up..

jaymla627

K.G. wrote: »

It also means increasing scale and simplifying the entire system just like the pig or poultry or at thid the tillage game.there cant be money for everyone in a beef animal as it done at the moment with maybe at least 3.owners plus various marts dealers and suppliers.i was talking to a substantial beef man and he suggested he buys his ratio 30 euros a ton cheaper than standard customers. And to be honest the mill still makes more out of him than average customers in that its all full loads and maybe 4 aweek almost every week.we get that classic tractor magazine and it alwayas strikes me the difference in scale between england and here.even here on iur farm we produce about 15 times what we produced in 86 and we were nearly as busy then as now.im just saying thers alot of improvement in efficiency required inthe irish beef sector

Beef price at the moment is equivalent to sub 20 cent litre milk, doesn't matter what economies of scale are their its not viable, if it wasnt for the sfp propping the whole house of cards up the landscape would be a mirror image of New Zealand

_Brian

Hints here of the teagasc mantra.

More numbers and improved efficiency.

Bollox to that message.

The price of beef isn’t supporting production and if people continue to increase numbers the price will fall accordingly.

So it’s a vicious circle and all the time the blame is landed back to the farmer for either not being into enough numbers or not being efficient enough.

Meanwhile teagasc suck in all the money from KT meeting and similar, Larry and friends suck in raw materials supplied at below cost of production and the primary producer has nothing but the message that it’s because he’s not working hard enough.

K.G.

jaymla627 wrote: »

Beef price at the moment is equivalent to sub 20 cent litre milk, doesn't matter what economies of scale are their its not viable, if it wasnt for the sfp propping the whole house of cards up the landscape would be a mirror image of New Zealand

Yes but many farm units in Ireland are only producing maybe 2 or 3 thousand kgs of beef a year,50 cent a kilo only going yo be a difference of 1000 to 1500 if thats the levell of production on a farm.i get the feeling whats happening at the moment had to happen ss reform of land use has to change in Ireland.

jaymla627

K.G. wrote: »

Yes but many farm units in Ireland are only producing maybe 2 or 3 thousand kgs of beef a year,50 cent a kilo only going yo be a difference of 1000 to 1500 if thats the levell of production on a farm.i get the feeling whats happening at the moment had to happen ss reform of land use has to change in Ireland.

How could anyone farm a couple of 100 beef cattle with minimal labour in a scenario where the available land block could be spread over 7-8 different blocks, that's why going the intensive route using a grass based system at beef is ludacris and going the feedlot route is literally burning money, anyone now that has a suitable block of ground will be milking of it not hoping to break even at beef.....
Fully expect dairy farmers are going to have to rear all calves on farm to finishing going forward our else pay a hefty fee to get a beef farmer to take calves of their hands

Waffletraktor

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Developments/evolution of consumer sentiment in France.

A few weeks ago a good friend of mine was spraying his ‘magic mix’ of molasses etc for soil biology. He stopped near a road to blow out a blocked nozzle. A car with two men stopped and attacked him. They fractured his skull.
Day before yesterday a man from 14km away was spraying roundup. A guy assaulted him, fired him out of the cab of the sprayer, and clattered shyte out of the sprayer cab using a hammer. Broke windows, smashed screens etc...

I’d hate to be in the firing line of these extremists if we were slaughtering newborn calves.

These militant extremists are now entering veal farms, intensive poultry and pig farms, and setting up hidden cameras or taking live footage.
The times they are a’changing.

I say fook 'em.
Let a super race of rust or septoria wipe out the western european bread wheat crop they wouldn't be long clammering to Monsanto for a gm crop with the ultra food inflation it would cause.

mycro2013

K.G. wrote: »

Yes but many farm units in Ireland are only producing maybe 2 or 3 thousand kgs of beef a year,50 cent a kilo only going yo be a difference of 1000 to 1500 if thats the levell of production on a farm.i get the feeling whats happening at the moment had to happen ss reform of land use has to change in Ireland.

Climate change and dairy bred calves will be an additional level of a red tape for the dairy industry. Trying to resolve it will not be easy ask. Already the agricultural industry is under scrutiny regarding an Increase in emissions which may not even include the increased emissions from milk processing as this may be classed as industry.

While not ideal im toying with the idea of putting all the herd in calf to traditional beef breeds and buying in replacements as either heifer calves or calved heifers for a trial period.

This be may be also be one solution, limit the number of dairy breed ai straws being used to a certain percentage of the herd. Say 30%. It would ensure that each herd would only put there best in calf again to dairy bred ai and further drive herd efficiency.

Bass Reeves

This is not farmer lead it is not processor lead it is market lead. In dealing with modern social media companies do not want negative publicity. If at present Teagasc, IFA and processor spokemen did not highlight it then when the sh!t hits the fan in 2-5 years time lads would be giving out just like they are cribbing now that Teagasc and other dairy expansion experts failed to see the calf issue.

First off it is not just dairy bull calves with present beef prices late born calves are uneconomical especially traditional breed heifers from mid/late March on. Only this morning on this thread we had one lad espousing if exports are not an option then Dept approved facilities will provide the answer. Sorry but that will not wash.

Yes we are only slaughtering sub 1% at present. I do not think there is a hammer on the head element yet no matter what other think. But statistics tell us that up to 2016 about 5.7K calves were slaughtered and this jumped from then on and in 2019 we have a 45% increase over 2018 leaving us with an expect calf slaughter of 14K. Give it that about 1.4 million cows are calved and that from the normal base of 5.7 it leaves 8.3K calves are selectively slaughtered at dept approved facilities. That means we are at about 0.6% selective slaughter rate. But the problem is that this means we had an actual doubling of selective calf slaughtering. If that trend continues next year selective calf slaughter numbers could be at or above 20K (over 25K total) or 1.5% of dairy bred calf numbers

One of the interesting things I saw in the rag today was that in Denmark dairy farmers must carry all calves to 8 weeks of age before sale. Maybe that is the answer down the line.

Lads that think efficiency in beef finishing is the answer do not under stand the difference between white meat and red meat production. You have to look at feed conversion rates(FCR). A chicken converts at 1.6 -1, the ould Pig at 4-1(from my old agriculture science book) a steer about 13-1 and the lamb can be as high as 40-1.

The other factor is KO rate, I am not sure about the chicken but the Pig is 75%, the dairy bred beef breed is 51-53%, dairy breeds 46-50%, Lamb 40-48%. Efficiency with beef is not the answer neither is the turn over of numbers.
However if I got got good well done friesian bull calves at 10-12 weeks of age for sub 100 euro I might gamble with them. I still want a few euro with the JEx and he would want to be Black and white as opposed to black

Bass Reeves

Waffletraktor wrote: »

I say fook 'em.
Let a super race of rust or septoria wipe out the western european bread wheat crop they wouldn't be long clammering to Monsanto for a gm crop with the ultra food inflation it would cause.

But it will not. You will still get enough grain for bread production, it the grain that goes for meat production that will be hit.

Waffletraktor

Bass Reeves wrote: »

But it will not. You will still get enough grain for bread production, it the grain that goes for meat production that will be hit.

Bread spec aint feed wheat. European bread wheat is the bulker in blends.

alps

Bass Reeves wrote: »

However if I got got good well done friesian bull calves at 10-12 weeks of age for sub 100 euro I might gamble with them.

Haha...you haven't a chance...

Any good fr bull calf will have passed up the €100 by 5 weeks minimum...
Qq

Bass Reeves

Waffletraktor wrote: »

Bread spec aint feed wheat. European bread wheat is the bulker in blends.

You are right but if sh1t came to shove they would mill feed wheat. Anyway up to 50% of bread wheat is rejected/not used anyway for reasons of economy. They would just mill this anyway. The white bread might be a bit different, they might even insist all bread be wholegrain. But it would be nothing like the rye/black bread of WW11 that my mother used to speak about.

Bass Reeves

alps wrote: »

Haha...you haven't a chance...

Any good fr bull calf will have passed up the €100 by 5 weeks minimum...
Qq

He cannot be sold sub 5 weeks in Denmark

Injuryprone

Say my name wrote: »

If they can't sell those calves and there's no outlet and they've the place stocked to the hilt with cows and loans borrowed for expansion and definitely can't reduce cow numbers and are forced to keep those calves.

Why can't they reduce cow numbers?

Sounds to me that you want to have your cake and eat it too. Whether you like it or not, the milking cow is going to have to pay for the rearing of her calf. Even if that makes the milking cow slightly less profitable, then so be it.

Every industry in the country has to deal with such issues. If my neighbour rings in sick in the morning, his boss doesn't say "you're not going to be making me money today, so you won't be getting paid", similarly with holiday pay etc. Every industry has to live with the fact that you're not going to profit from every part of your business all the time.

The future reality is that the calf is going to be a slight drag on the profitability of the dairy cow, but some people would want to realise that we will still be far better off in such a situation than if our green image (which has taken decades to build up) is destroyed which this issue has the potential to do.

Say my name

Injuryprone wrote: »

Why can't they reduce cow numbers?

Sounds to me that you want to have your cake and eat it too. Whether you like it or not, the milking cow is going to have to pay for the rearing of her calf. Even if that makes the milking cow slightly less profitable, then so be it.

Every industry in the country has to deal with such issues. If my neighbour rings in sick in the morning, his boss doesn't say "you're not going to be making me money today, so you won't be getting paid", similarly with holiday pay etc. Every industry has to live with the fact that you're not going to profit from every part of your business all the time.

The future reality is that the calf is going to be a slight drag on the profitability of the dairy cow, but some people would want to realise that we will still be far better off in such a situation than if our green image (which has taken decades to build up) is destroyed which this issue has the potential to do.

Look we all know farms that have expanded quickly or new entrants that have gone from zero to hundreds in the blink of an eye. There's been facilities built and infrastructure put in place costing millions. Now these farms are held as the go getters and farms to be impressed by. They have every cent to the last budgeted for for the next twenty years. All done on borrowed money.
These are the farms that the problems that people potentially are speaking about. The calf was never budgeted for.
Even in their plans if the herd was in lock down with tb the dealer feedlots were an option. That'll now be taken away as there'll be sheer numbers looking for any option.
They can't reduce numbers because they won't be able to pay back loans so are stuck between hell and hell.
This talk will just put the pressure on dairy the very same pressure that has farmers from new Zealand to new York state taking their own lives and in some instances their herd with them.

Call it looking for cake and eating it but I'm just posting how I see it.
If there's going to serious talk about the subject and not virtue signalling about welfare then dept approved abattoirs dotted around the country that take in stock no questions asked but noted, no payment given, need to be on the table.

Bass Reeves

Injuryprone wrote: »

Why can't they reduce cow numbers?

Say my name wrote: »

Look we all know farms that have expanded quickly or new entrants that have gone from zero to hundreds in the blink of an eye. There's been facilities built and infrastructure put in place costing millions. Now these farms are held as the go getters and farms to be impressed by. They have every cent to the last budgeted for for the next twenty years. All done on borrowed money.
These are the farms that the problems that people potentially are speaking about. The calf was never budgeted for.
Even in their plans if the herd was in lock down with tb the dealer feedlots were an option. That'll now be taken away as there'll be sheer numbers looking for any option.
They can't reduce numbers because they won't be able to pay back loans so are stuck between hell and hell.
This talk will just put the pressure on dairy the very same pressure that has farmers from new Zealand to new York state taking their own lives and in some instances their herd with them.

Call it looking for cake and eating it but I'm just posting how I see it.
If there's going to serious talk about the subject and not virtue signalling about welfare then dept approved abattoirs dotted around the country that take in stock no questions asked but noted, no payment given, need to be on the table.

There is more than the issue with calves coming down the road regarding cow numbers. Any lad that is over borrowed may be in trouble anyway. The nitrates directive is changing and thsi will reduce overall stocking rate. At present the cow is credited witha nitrate rate of 80kgs and an overall limit with a derogation is 250kgs/HA or 3 cows/HA.

There are two proposed changes the first is expected in the next 2-4 years and that is the cow will increase to 100kgs, the second is proposed for 2028 and that is that that nitrates will be set at 150kgs/HA with an overall limit of 200.. As well outside cubicles will be banned and cows will have to be in covered cubicles and feed area's as well. All this effectively meas that dairy expansion as we know it will come to a rapid halt.

However back to calves there is two issues the value of the calf and the beef price. The government let the beef industry and processors do as it wants over always.Over the last 5 years retailers and processors have changed spec and have made beef production non viable. The government was happy as it would reduce suckler cow numbers, increase forestry and solve the greenhouse gas industry. I do not want to start a discussion about beef prices or what happened during the summer so we will leave it there.

However one big kickback has been the Fr bull production game. There was two markets U16 month and U24 month. These two systems took a huge number of Fr bull calves. The U16 month is viable at a price of in or around 4/kg but the profitability is eaten into every year and the smaller lad has exited as because of recieving a lower price and the lad that was not super efficient. The U24 month bull was a two stage process lads bought as calves reared them and sold them at approx 16-20 months for finishing. They usually got a price of 1.7-1.8/kg making it a profitable enterprise. However last winters beef price has made this uneconomical and lads selling this summer/Autumn were only getting 1.2-1.3/kg if even that. I was talking to a few of them all are changing there system, some have squeezed and intend to either sell in the spring as stores finish as bullock next summer. Even if they stay in the calf rearing business the number of calves they buy will be half if they enter the steer business.

The biggest issue at present is the calf and stores man need to feel the love but it is not happening as we see over the attitude of some to the beef strike. Any calf/store man that exits the rearing business will not be replaced

jaymla627

Bass Reeves wrote: »

There is more than the issue with calves coming down the road regarding cow numbers. Any lad that is over borrowed may be in trouble anyway. The nitrates directive is changing and thsi will reduce overall stocking rate. At present the cow is credited witha nitrate rate of 80kgs and an overall limit with a derogation is 250kgs/HA or 3 cows/HA.

There are two proposed changes the first is expected in the next 2-4 years and that is the cow will increase to 100kgs, the second is proposed for 2028 and that is that that nitrates will be set at 150kgs/HA with an overall limit of 200.. As well outside cubicles will be banned and cows will have to be in covered cubicles and feed area's as well. All this effectively meas that dairy expansion as we know it will come to a rapid halt.

However back to calves there is two issues the value of the calf and the beef price. The government let the beef industry and processors do as it wants over always.Over the last 5 years retailers and processors have changed spec and have made beef production non viable. The government was happy as it would reduce suckler cow numbers, increase forestry and solve the greenhouse gas industry. I do not want to start a discussion about beef prices or what happened during the summer so we will leave it there.

However one big kickback has been the Fr bull production game. There was two markets U16 month and U24 month. These two systems took a huge number of Fr bull calves. The U16 month is viable at a price of in or around 4/kg but the profitability is eaten into every year and the smaller lad has exited as because of recieving a lower price and the lad that was not super efficient. The U24 month bull was a two stage process lads bought as calves reared them and sold them at approx 16-20 months for finishing. They usually got a price of 1.7-1.8/kg making it a profitable enterprise. However last winters beef price has made this uneconomical and lads selling this summer/Autumn were only getting 1.2-1.3/kg if even that. I was talking to a few of them all are changing there system, some have squeezed and intend to either sell in the spring as stores finish as bullock next summer. Even if they stay in the calf rearing business the number of calves they buy will be half if they enter the steer business.

The biggest issue at present is the calf and stores man need to feel the love but it is not happening as we see over the attitude of some to the beef strike. Any calf/store man that exits the rearing business will not be replaced

Going forward you should see these calf to store lads been able to get 12 week properly reared freisan bulls for free and the likes of a x-breed calf youd be talking 200 euro to cover expected losses on finishing minimum, our a contract rearing arrangement where land/labour/facilities is provided by beef man for a set fee and all inputs provided by dairy man with him getting sales cheque on finishing if animal loses 300-400 euro then dairy man takes the hit, his calf the first day his problem, with nitrates going to tighten and land area needed to support a dairy cow going to increase the beef man has the ball in his court re getting a margin from the dairy farmer

Panch18

I'd sell the cows before i would give anybody a 12 week old perfectly healthy calf for free

Modern day slavery is what it would be if it came to that

alps

Bass Reeves wrote: »

He cannot be sold sub 5 weeks in Denmark

Right too..it would certainly force guys to put care and effort into the critical first week of life..

Too many calves move before they should and one of those limitations is the 42 day rule. Many calves, and we all know it, could have done with another week for whatever journey they are going on, but are sent because they will be "out if date".

I know testing is not that expensive, but it's an enormous cost for a handful..

2 changes that government could do to help..

Lift the 42 days to 60..

Allow grant aid on calf buildings/structures with far lower building specifications than currently required..what needed here is not much more than clean able shelter for 3 months use..

jaymla627

Panch18 wrote: »

I'd sell the cows before i would give anybody a 12 week old perfectly healthy calf for free

Modern day slavery is what it would be if it came to that

Then bring them to slaughter yourself and tie up the capital/labour/and facilities needed all to take whatever crumbs the factory will give you. I'd rather take a 200 euro hit on giving away calves at that age then bringing them any further given the state of the beef market

Panch18

jaymla627 wrote: »

Then bring them to slaughter yourself and tie up the capital/labour/and facilities needed all to take whatever crumbs the factory will give you. I'd rather take a 200 euro hit on giving away calves at that age then bringing them any further given the state of the beef market

Weren't you moaning only a few pages back about this spring you could have saved yourself thousands if you could have shot them instead of getting them exported at 3 weeks - and now you're talking about forcing fellas to keep them for 12 weeks, I don't get your logic?

Well i'd much rather be the fella getting 12 week old calves for free than the fella giving them away that's for sure, because there would only be 1 mug in that transaction