Update - Lawn ruined by cattle

endainoz

_Brian wrote: »

The whole debacle is a lesson on how not to treat your neighbors or anything in life really.

If there is a problem, deal with it, as they say in the marines, “bad news doesn’t get better with age”

Absolutely, sad that it had to come to this really. Seems like the ignorance/negligence of the farmer did them no favours and now they are desperately trying to solve it when it's clearly too late. This could have been dealt with in a much more civilised Manor instead of the OP being ignored constantly.

maidhc

Rows Grower wrote: »

I don't know what country you're in but it don't work like that in Ireland thanks be to God.

I live in Ireland, and I am a solicitor so I have some idea what I am a talking about.

I am not saying the farmer was right in ignoring the issue, just saying that it is notoriously hard and slow to get money out of people, even those who have assets.

Ginger83

endainoz wrote: »

Absolutely, sad that it had to come to this really. Seems like the ignorance/negligence of the farmer did them no favours and now they are desperately trying to solve it when it's clearly too late. This could have been dealt with in a much more civilised Manor instead of the OP being ignored constantly.

What they are still trying to do is come up with ways to get out of paying.

Probably realize how bad they'll look if it makes papers too

Plumbthedepths

maidhc wrote: »

I live in Ireland, and I am a solicitor so I have some idea what I am a talking about.

I am not saying the farmer was right in ignoring the issue, just saying that it is notoriously hard and slow to get money out of people, even those who have assets.

Once you seize assets to cover the debt, getting money from the debtor is irrelevant. Where there's a will there's a way.

Rows Grower

maidhc wrote: »

I live in Ireland, and I am a solicitor so I have some idea what I am a talking about.

I am not saying the farmer was right in ignoring the issue, just saying that it is notoriously hard and slow to get money out of people, even those who have assets.

You may claim to be a solicitor but from reading your post "In this country if you don't want to pay, you don't really have to" I find your claim extremely hard to believe.

Ginger83

maidhc wrote: »

I live in Ireland, and I am a solicitor so I have some idea what I am a talking about.

I am not saying the farmer was right in ignoring the issue, just saying that it is notoriously hard and slow to get money out of people, even those who have assets.

I don't dispute that but payment will come one way or another.

endainoz

Ginger83 wrote: »

What they are still trying to do is come up with ways to get out of paying.

Probably realize how bad they'll look if it makes papers too

Just out of interest, would you have accepted the offer from the farmer to roll it if it was offered much earlier? I remember in the previous thread you had said that wasn't an option but I'm not sure if you gave a reason?

whelan2

Ginger83 wrote: »

I don't dispute that but payment will come one way or another.

In what time frame though? I had a court case. Payment was to be made to me within so many days. It was made well before that date. Is it worth all the stress?

Ginger83

endainoz wrote: »

Just out of interest, would you have accepted the offer from the farmer to roll it if it was offered much earlier? I remember in the previous thread you had said that wasn't an option but I'm not sure if you gave a reason?

No we'd prefer a suitable qualified and insured person to repair it.

Ginger83

whelan2 wrote: »

In what time frame though? I had a court case. Payment was to be made to me within so many days. It was made well before that date. Is it worth all the stress?

I don't understand

topmanamillion

Thanks for the update OP. An interesting case and a lesson in how to deal with issues.

endainoz

Ginger83 wrote: »

No we'd prefer a suitable qualified and insured person to repair it.

I admire your confidence in getting this money one way or another, hopefully it will work out for you. I'd be wary of delaying tactics all the same. Is the place properly fenced off now at least?

bcklschaps

Quote: maidhc

In this country if you don't want to pay you don't really have to.

Rows Grower wrote: »

I don't know what country you're in but it don't work like that in Ireland thanks be to God.

KBC bank might aggree with "maidhc".

Just pray this recalcitrant farmer doesn't have any friends in the IRA or the Freemen movement. If he does, could be interesting when Sherrif shows up at his gate

whelan2

Ginger83 wrote: »

I don't understand

How long before you will get any money. Is it worth all the stress and no money?

Ginger83

topmanamillion wrote: »

Thanks for the update OP. An interesting case and a lesson in how to deal with issues.

Yes we are trying to send a clear message to the land owner but the ironic thing is the land is still not fenced off very well.

It will be an even dearer mistake if it happens again because next time we are having the lawns fully relaid.

Ginger83

endainoz wrote: »

I admire your confidence in getting this money one way or another, hopefully it will work out for you. I'd be wary of delaying tactics all the same. Is the place properly fenced off now at least?

No

Ginger83

whelan2 wrote: »

How long before you will get any money. Is it worth all the stress and no money?

Its 4 months to date.

I will pursue him to bankruptcy if i have to.

patsy_mccabe

OP, would you not be worried about this individual getting their own back on you?
The law may be on your side but I think sometimes you are just better to let things go.

Ginger83

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

OP, would you not be worried about this individual getting their own back on you?
The law may be on your side but I think sometimes you are just better to let things go.

Not a bit

KCross

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

OP, would you not be worried about this individual getting their own back on you?
The law may be on your side but I think sometimes you are just better to let things go.

Are you the farmer? :pac:

patsy_mccabe

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

OP, would you not be worried about this individual getting their own back on you?
The law may be on your side but I think sometimes you are just better to let things go.

What's he going to do? Destroy the lawn again?

Ginger83

KCross wrote: »

Are you the farmer? :pac:

patsy_mccabe

Well I know of a case where a girl put in a claim against this guy who accidentally damaged her teeth in a minor car incident. Her boyfriend was approached in a pub one night by a local heavy, a relative of the driver. He threathened the boyfriend who then went a made a statement to the guards. Turns out the heavy has a list of assaults to his name. I know one guy who had his jaw broken and his teeth knocked out by him.

patsy_mccabe

KCross wrote: »

Are you the farmer? :pac:

Yes, why?

Rows Grower

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Well I know of a case where a girl put in a claim against this guy who accidentally damaged her teeth in a minor car incident. Her boyfriend was approached in a pub one night by a local heavy, a relative of the driver. He threathened the boyfriend who then went a made a statement to the guards. Turns out the heavy has a list of assaults to his name. I know one guy who had his jaw broken and his teeth knocked out by him.

And what was the outcome of that?

Ginger83

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Well I know of a case where a girl put in a claim against this guy who accidentally damaged her teeth in a minor car incident. Her boyfriend was approached in a pub one night by a local heavy, a relative of the driver. He threathened the boyfriend who then went a made a statement to the guards. Turns out the heavy has a list of assaults to his name. I know one guy who had his jaw broken and his teeth knocked out by him.

If everyone lived in fear no debts would ever be paid.

patsy_mccabe

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Her boyfriend was approached in a pub one night by a local heavy,... I know one guy who had his jaw broken and his teeth knocked out by him.

I know loads of rough people and plenty of thugs, and none would get involved in anything like that, over an insurance claim. :rolleyes:

These people will get violent, but only when it's needed and not when the person is above board and can go to the law. They don't try to bring a load of attention to themselves.

Jb1989

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Well I know of a case where a girl put in a claim against this guy who accidentally damaged her teeth in a minor car incident. Her boyfriend was approached in a pub one night by a local heavy, a relative of the driver. He threathened the boyfriend who then went a made a statement to the guards. Turns out the heavy has a list of assaults to his name. I know one guy who had his jaw broken and his teeth knocked out by him.

But did the heavy attack the boyfriend after the statement?

endainoz

Ginger83 wrote: »

No

Ffs, any bit of sympathy/understanding I had for the farmer is gone now. He could at least have sorted the fence out to make an effort so it doesn't happen again.

Ginger83

Deleted User wrote: »

I know loads of rough people and plenty of thugs, and none would get involved in anything like that, over an insurance claim. :rolleyes:

These people will get violent, but only when it's needed and not when the person is above board and can go to the law. They don't try to bring a load of attention to themselves.

I've had offers off people to sort it other ways but i'm not like that

bladespin

Rows Grower wrote: »

And what was the outcome of that?

Jb1989 wrote: »

But did the heavy attack the boyfriend after the statement?

I'd love to know, especially after making a documented threat, that'd be just special really.

The heavy brigade days are long gone, especially in an age of mobile recording etc etc. you just can't throw your weight around like the old days. lol

Ginger83

endainoz wrote: »

Ffs, any bit of sympathy/understanding I had for the farmer is gone now. He could at least have sorted the fence out to make an effort so it doesn't happen again.

White sticks and tape. 12 sheep in it now

Odelay

Ginger83 wrote: »

White sticks and tape. 12 sheep in it now

Looks like the sheep will soon be in to trim the grass for you.

nutjobb

Well done for persevering.

Now when/where do these auctions take place?

Ginger83

Odelay wrote: »

Looks like the sheep will soon be in to trim the grass for you.

Will that not keep them out

davidk1394

Ginger83 wrote: »

I've had offers off people to sort it other ways but i'm not like that

Don't stoop to their level. Had the same problem here with a more serious incident, it wasn't about the money in my eyes. It was about standing my ground and doing what was right. The compensation was only small but like yourself i wasn't letting it go. This fella owed money to everyone but I wasn't going to be one of them. I hope you get what your owed.

Ginger83

We did this on our side

pic 3 cattle.jpg

patsy_mccabe

Rows Grower wrote: »

And what was the outcome of that?

The guards went and had a word with him.

patsy_mccabe

Jb1989 wrote: »

But did the heavy attack the boyfriend after the statement?

No, just threathened him. Some nasty individuals out there.

forgottenhills

Ginger83 wrote: »

We did this on our side

pic 3 cattle.jpg

That fence will keep out the sheep and in combination with the hedge it should be fool proof against cattle.

Is there a drainage ditch (also known as a sheugh in some parts of the country) between the fence and the hedge? It's hard to see from the picture.

If there is a drain there then I'm pretty sure that the law is that he owns the hedge. He may be just a miser who doesn't like to part with his money but if he is a real troublemaker then he could cut down the hedge completely if he sees the fence or your side and take away from the privacy of your garden, exposing you more to farming sights and smells. If there is a drainage ditch on the other side of the hedge (his side) then the hedge belongs to you and he wouldn't be entitled to cut it down. If there is no ditch then I am not sure who owns the hedge.

Rather than falling out with him completely it might be worthwhile to come to some little arrangement once he has paid over the money. For instance you might allow him to cut the high grass in the garden in Spring and roll it for a small refund etc. But only give over the refund after he does a proper job. In that case some honour is saved on all sides and might prevent any future retaliation if he is a bad egg.

Ginger83

forgottenhills wrote: »

That fence will keep out the sheep and in combination with the hedge it should be fool proof against cattle.

Is there a drainage ditch (also known as a sheugh in some parts of the country) between the fence and the hedge? It's hard to see from the picture.

If there is a drain there then I'm pretty sure that the law is that he owns the hedge. He may be just a miser who doesn't like to part with his money but if he is a real troublemaker then he could cut down the hedge completely if he sees the fence or your side and take away from the privacy of your garden, exposing you more to farming sights and smells. If there is a drainage ditch on the other side of the hedge (his side) then the hedge belongs to you and he wouldn't be entitled to cut it down. If there is no ditch then I am not sure who owns the hedge.

Rather than falling out with him completely it might be worthwhile to come to some little arrangement once he has paid over the money. For instance you might allow him to cut the high grass in the garden in Spring and roll it for a small refund etc. But only give over the refund after he does a proper job. In that case some honour is saved on all sides and might prevent any future retaliation if he is a bad egg.

Yes it is a drain but never seen water in it.

It is a guy that was renting the land thats liable not the landowner.

patsy_mccabe

OP, that fence won't keep out cattle, only sheep. Put a row of barbed wire on top and it would help big time though.

Ginger83

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

OP, that fence won't keep out cattle, only sheep. Put a row of barbed wire on top and it would help big time though.

Thanks for the advice.

Yes we will do that, its all extra costs on us though.

Rows Grower

Ginger83 wrote: »

Thanks for the advice.

Yes we will do that, its all extra costs on us though.

Yes and the onus is on the owner of the cattle to keep them fenced in, not you.

maidhc

Ginger83 wrote: »

Thanks for the advice.

Yes we will do that, its all extra costs on us though.

It is normally good conveyancing practice to impose a covenant on homeowners to maintain a stock proof fence when it bounds agricultural land. It obviously wasn't done in your case, but still for the benefit of those reading I would say 50% or so of houses build in rural sites have this covenant.

As a matter of practice the sheriff only seizes goods as a matter of last resort. They will give a long time to a any debtor to pay first, whether it is in installments of otherwise. You will normally be waiting a long time, and at times the cuter hoors will point to the tractor on HP, the Floating debenture over the cattle and the car loan on the car. Then you get your lovely Nulla Bona back, and you can proceed with your bankruptcy, but you only get paid once all the secured creditors are paid, and you have given various undertakings to the Court to discharge open ended professional fees and other expenses.

All this is to say; don't be too cocky! It might work, but it might not.

pablo128

maidhc wrote: »

It is normally good conveyancing practice to impose a covenant on homeowners to maintain a stock proof fence when it bounds agricultural land. It obviously wasn't done in your case, but still for the benefit of those reading I would say 50% or so of houses build in rural sites have this covenant.

As a matter of practice the sheriff only seizes goods as a matter of last resort. They will give a long time to a any debtor to pay first, whether it is in installments of otherwise. You will normally be waiting a long time, and at times the cuter hoors will point to the tractor on HP, the Floating debenture over the cattle and the car loan on the car. Then you get your lovely Nulla Bona back, and you can proceed with your bankruptcy, but you only get paid once all the secured creditors are paid, and you have given various undertakings to the Court to discharge open ended professional fees and other expenses.

All this is to say; don't be too cocky! It might work, but it might not.

I wouldn't risk losing my house over a grand. You would want to be some pig headed cnut to let it get that far.

maidhc

pablo128 wrote: »

I wouldn't risk losing my house over a grand. You would want to be some pig headed cnut to let it get that far.

The sheriff isn't empowered to seize a house or lands. That would require the Op registering a judgment mortgage and then getting a well charging order; and then actually getting it sold.

Most people who have a habit of not paying for stuff know this...

Ginger83

maidhc wrote: »

It is normally good conveyancing practice to impose a covenant on homeowners to maintain a stock proof fence when it bounds agricultural land. It obviously wasn't done in your case, but still for the benefit of those reading I would say 50% or so of houses build in rural sites have this covenant.

As a matter of practice the sheriff only seizes goods as a matter of last resort. They will give a long time to a any debtor to pay first, whether it is in installments of otherwise. You will normally be waiting a long time, and at times the cuter hoors will point to the tractor on HP, the Floating debenture over the cattle and the car loan on the car. Then you get your lovely Nulla Bona back, and you can proceed with your bankruptcy, but you only get paid once all the secured creditors are paid, and you have given various undertakings to the Court to discharge open ended professional fees and other expenses.

All this is to say; don't be too cocky! It might work, but it might not.

There is more than 1 way to skin a cat...

I am a terminally ill wheelchair bound man and our local paper follows my journey with great interest.

One option is to tell my story and we'll have it public knowledge and do a fundraiser

Rows Grower

maidhc wrote: »

The sheriff isn't empowered to seize a house or lands. That would require the Op registering a judgment mortgage and then getting a well charging order; and then actually getting it sold.

Most people who have a habit of not paying for stuff know this...

What makes you think this farmer is in debt?

There are a lot of very wealthy farmers in Ireland and the average dairy farmer in Ireland makes a grand a week.

John Hutton

maidhc wrote: »

It is normally good conveyancing practice to impose a covenant on homeowners to maintain a stock proof fence when it bounds agricultural land. It obviously wasn't done in your case, but still for the benefit of those reading I would say 50% or so of houses build in rural sites have this covenant.

As a matter of practice the sheriff only seizes goods as a matter of last resort. They will give a long time to a any debtor to pay first, whether it is in installments of otherwise. You will normally be waiting a long time, and at times the cuter hoors will point to the tractor on HP, the Floating debenture over the cattle and the car loan on the car. Then you get your lovely Nulla Bona back, and you can proceed with your bankruptcy, but you only get paid once all the secured creditors are paid, and you have given various undertakings to the Court to discharge open ended professional fees and other expenses.

All this is to say; don't be too cocky! It might work, but it might not.

You are confused and incorrect about how bankruptcy works.

Secured creditors retain their rights in bankruptcy, unless they surrender their interest, and the official assignee seeks to get a return for unsecured creditors by liquidating assets and attaching payment orders on income. It's not the case that all secured debts have to be discharged before unsecured get anything.

It's a disaster for a farmer to go bankrupt as it messes up any payments as he would no longer own the land or, the lease for the land, or any animals, any quotas etc. Farmers are somewhat unlucky in this area as the dept have such good records, and the farmer has to supply such detailed applications and accounts, it is easy to identify assets.

It is also an automatic default on any mortgages he has, and the bank, especially BOI, tend to immediately call them in. Should the secured creditor sell the asset and there be a shortfall, this crystallises into an unsecured debt and the creditor can make a claim in the bankruptcy estate the same as any other unsecured creditor.

There is also more to be said about the expenses and professional fees you mention, I won't go into too much detail as the amount the OP is owed is too small for petition the farmer in any case, BUT in a straightforward case such as a farmer with easily identifiable assets the OAs fees are only a few grand and would be taken from the pool of money raised for unsecured creditors or indeed simply taken from unclaimed dividends, there wouldn't be additional costs on the OP.

Should the OP ever petition the farmer and he be named on the court list as such, he would have the money he is owed the next day. Before the law was changed there would be piles of applications before the court for pretty trifling sums which would invariably be struck out when the petitioner got his cash. But it was changed to 20k so that's a more difficult tactic now!

As for the sheriff, he or she will not do anything without you sitting on them. Find out when the farmer plans to send the cattle to the factory, alert the sherrif of same and your concern that the farmer is disposing of assets to avoid paying debt. Might spur him on and at the very least would let the sherrif know that you are looking at things and won't go away.

Although, it will lead to you being ostracised if it leads to assets, particularly animals, being seized.

Next time he sends a proxy to contact you tell them that you are stuck for the money and the sheriff has been on to you about seizing assets and has asked you if you have any objection to the sherrif seizing animals. Tell the proxy that you told the sherrif that you have no objection as, in your condition, you need the money but you asked the sherrif to leave it until after the Xmas season until you have a chance to discuss it with other locals/farmers re the value of the animals and how long it would take to sell them. (I.e would the sherrif be better seizing equipment and would he be able to sell that quicker and thus you get the money quicker).

Tell him that you are disgusted it came to this but you need the money and that you are aware the farmer has cash at the moment (he will have received his payments in December!) and that you are due to get back into the sherrif in the coming weeks after you discuss it with locals and would like to call the sherrif off but can only do so if you get the cash.

The farmer will be terrified of being humiliated at the Mart... This is your best bet for getting the money quick.

A few things to bear in mind when dealing with farmers:

1. They have decent piles of cash at certain times of year
2. Never as poor as they say
3. Will always chance their arm when it comes to paying ONE-OFF bills when there's nothing in it for them
4. Massively into keeping up appearances as they secretly hate neighbouring farmers and would loath to lose face in front of them
5. Farmers are emotionally invested in their business, particularly animals and their land. They will cut their nose to spite their face when it comes to these things.

So if you want the money make him afraid that others will think that he will lose his animals or land or make him afraid that this will actually happen. The former is easier!