Bishop says Yoga is not suitable for a parish school

Does it really matter what a Roman Catholic bishop might say about what can go in on Irish schools (or hospitals)?

It's not like the Roman Catholic Church owns the vast majority of Irish schools (or hospitals), is it?

Imagine how stupid it would be if the Irish people in 2019 still allowed most of their schools (and hospitals) to be owned by people with such views!

Snow Garden

He has history in saying stupid things

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/bishop-scripture-teaches-that-majority-always-wrong-864420.html

Bishop of Waterford and Lismore Alphonsus Cullinan has said scripture teaches that “the majority is always wrong”.

He had been asked about the Irish people’s decision to vote in favour of same-sex marriage.

The bishop, who was last year forced to apologise for comments suggesting the Gardasil HPV vaccine is “70% safe” and encourages sexual activity among young people

vriesmays

Catholics practising Hinduism while criticising Catholicism.

mvl

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

It was Catholicism that held back womens rights and lgbt rights for decades in this country. It was Catholicism responsible for a huge swathe of Irish institutional abuse of women and children.

Why point to the catholic church rather than the constitution ?
Anyway, I wouldn't go that far, in a country where you already have a history of 2 women presidents in the nineties - quite progressive if you'd ask me.

Hangdogroad

Jurgen The German wrote: »

My mother in law is an absolute holy roller, goes to mass every day, handed out save the 8th leaflets etc and as far as she is concerned yoga, reiki and the like are the work of satan himself. She read something in one of those religious magazines a number of years ago by a priest in Poland who said it and since then she is not for turning.

Reiki is a load of pseudoscience baloney though not through any connection with Old Nick.

One eyed Jack

Snow Garden wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/catholic-bishop-warns-against-yoga-and-mindfulness-in-schools-1.4055449


I am sure most school teachers would disagree. There is enough anxiety amongst young children already.

Why don't the Roman church pick their battles a bit better? It's getting harder and harder to see why anyone darkens their doors anymore.

How can you possibly be so sure? From my own experience of introducing teachers to the new wellness program, they simply weren’t interested. It’s understandable from my point of view why they weren’t interested, because they’re already trying to work within the limitations of an overloaded curriculum already to be wasting time on either wellness, or religious education.

In Catholic schools though, which is what the Bishop is talking about, and which the Bishops of Ireland are the Patron body, the Bishop in this case (who has a habit of making statements that he knows will draw attention to him), is perfectly within his rights to say what is or isn’t appropriate in schools where he is a representative of the Patron body.

Personally, I think the whole drive for wellness/mindfulness etc are just another excuse for a doss class to replace religion in order to appeal to a secular portion of the population who values that sort of nonsense - in effect, replacing what is regarded as one form of nonsense for another, depending upon what floats your boat.

It’s not the Roman Church needs to pick their battles at all, it’s the proponents of new age woo need to pick their battles, and they’re doing so by attempting to introduce their nonsense in schools in which both teachers have no time for it, and students don’t care for it. They should probably have stuck to hosting classes in the local parochial hall, at least there people have the option of not having to entertain such nonsense if they don’t want to.

mvl

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Personally, I think the whole drive for wellness/mindfulness etc are just another excuse for a doss class to replace religion in order to appeal to a secular portion of the population who values that sort of nonsense - in effect, replacing what is regarded as one form of nonsense for another, depending upon what floats your boat.

Agreed.

Just remembered something actually: I did bring my then 7 yo to meditation, in private (she was going with one of her friends) - she's 11, and now she tells me these classes were useless to her - guess this is what kids in primary school can get out of these classes anyway.

So if we're talking about primary school, I am happy to keep the religion classes with emphasis on christian values, rather than this new wave of things that are not part of my culture.

Donald Trump

I always find it interesting how people sneer at things people do, or used to do, in the name of religion in Ireland but immediately latch onto an equivalent once it's packaged in another religion (or else they might be ignorant of its origins).

Going to a quiet church to kneel and reflect and maybe "pray" for others - sneer.

Pay a few hundred quid or more to go to a retreat to have a "guru" sit with them cross legged on the ground on a hill while they mediate and be "spiritual" - yeah but that's not silly at all.

Neither is for me, but maybe some day one of them would be. Regardless, there is no fundamental difference to the two. (cue, no doubt, rants about babies in a tank or some priest that was a paedo in order to deflect from the point)

If you want to sneer at one, you have to sneer at both! If not, you are a complete hypocrite

Edit: If the bishop doesn't like yoga, that is his choice. If he just doesn't want the "competition" from a competing doctrine, that's understandable too. That would be the same with any organisation or belief.

One eyed Jack

Donald Trump wrote: »

If you want to sneer at one, you have to sneer at both! If not, you are a complete hypocrite.

I really don’t. I can sneer at new age woo all I want, it has nothing to do with my views on religion. I take religion seriously, I don’t take new age woo seriously, so no hypocrisy there from my point of view.

Annasopra

mvl wrote: »

Why point to the catholic church rather than the constitution ?
Anyway, I wouldn't go that far, in a country where you already have a history of 2 women presidents in the nineties - quite progressive if you'd ask me.

Because the Constitution so Catholic in its outlook and was even approved by the Pope in the 1930s

Because of the Magdalene laundries
Because divorce and contraception were banned
Because of the 8th amendment
Because of Eileen Flynn, Ms X, Savita Halappanavar,

I was referring to Ireland mainly pre 1990s though

Cordell

youknowitstrue wrote: »

Catholicism if you like it or not is the reason the West is more advanced/civilized than the rest of the world.

No, it's because people in the west did everything better, including religion. Arguably, because they are better.

sabat

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Because the Constitution so Catholic in its outlook and was even approved by the Pope in the 1930s

Because of the Magdalene laundries
Because divorce and contraception were banned
Because of the 8th amendment
Because of Eileen Flynn, Ms X, Savita Halappanavar,

I was referring to Ireland mainly pre 1990s though

So you're claiming that there was no improvement in the education, health, housing, social mobility etc of Irish people, including women, in the period between independence and about 10 years ago? Are you also claiming, seeing as it's the subject of the thread, that women and the disadvantaged have it better in countries where individualist spiritual religions dominate?

Annasopra

sabat wrote: »

So you're claiming that there was no improvement in the education, health, housing, social mobility etc of Irish people, including women, in the period between independence and about 10 years ago? Are you also claiming, seeing as it's the subject of the thread, that women and the disadvantaged have it better in countries where individualist spiritual religions dominate?

No. I didnt claim any of that.

One eyed Jack

sabat wrote: »

So you're claiming that there was no improvement in the education, health, housing, social mobility etc of Irish people, including women, in the period between independence and about 10 years ago? Are you also claiming, seeing as it's the subject of the thread, that women and the disadvantaged have it better in countries where individualist spiritual religions dominate?

I didn’t agree with Joeys take on it, but I’m perplexed as to how you got any of the above from Joeys post :pac:

The history of Irish society isn’t nearly so simple that the RCC could be said to have had as much either a positive or negative influence on Irish society as is often claimed - much of it’s influence is simply exaggerated, like your post.

Donald Trump

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I really don’t. I can sneer at new age woo all I want, it has nothing to do with my views on religion. I take religion seriously, I don’t take new age woo seriously, so no hypocrisy there from my point of view.

I think my point went over your head completely.


The mental benefit of going to a church to reflect etc. is very similar to going to some yoke where a fella tells you to close your eyes and "clear your mind"


You will get plenty of people sneering at someone who goes into a church to sit down and "pray" or reflect. The same people will happily extol the virtues of their most recent "meditation" retreat.





I am not referring to any other aspect.

One eyed Jack

Donald Trump wrote: »

I think my point went over your head completely.

The mental benefit of going to a church to reflect etc. is very similar to going to some yoke where a fella tells you to close your eyes and "clear your mind"

You will get plenty of people sneering at someone who goes into a church to sit down and "pray" or reflect. The same people will happily extol the virtues of their most recent "meditation" retreat.

I am not referring to any other aspect.

Your point didn’t go over my head at all, I completely got what you’re saying, but what I’m saying is there’s no hypocrisy in taking one thing seriously and sneering at something else, when I don’t see them as being the same thing at all. You’re perfectly entitled of course to see them as the same thing and then invent the hypocrisy label for other people who don’t see things the way you do, but that’s entirely an invention of your own. Other people are free to disagree and it doesn’t make them hypocrites.

The reason I’m making the point is because for me, while prayer and reflection is the same in principle as closing their eyes and opening their mind is for someone else - I never got anything out of the new woo, whereas I do from practising my faith. Other people are of course going to feel the opposite - that they derive peace and contentment from what I regard as new woo. Neither of us are hypocrites, we just relate differently to different things and different ideas resonate more with either of us than other ideas which don’t.

The same can be said for any ideology, philosophy or world view you’d care to think of - nobody is under any obligation to regard them all equally, lest they be accused of hypocrisy because they don’t place equal value in all ideas. I have nothing against hypocrisy either btw, I’m a hypocrite in many, many ways. I wouldn’t take anyone calling other people hypocrites seriously though as it’s generally easy enough if I cared for their opinions, to point out that person’s hypocrisy, especially the type of people who claim everyone else should be tolerant of their particular bullshìt which they value and imagine everyone else should be obligated to take it as seriously as they do.

Attempts to introduce progressive nonsense that I would regard as of no educational value whatsoever in schools, is another good example, which is why I would never send my child to a school with that sort of ethos. Thankfully that is a choice I make as a parent that is protected under numerous human rights laws already, so I don’t have to take anyone seriously who calls me a hypocrite* because I’m not into their progressive new age woo nonsense.


*not aimed at you DT, but there’s no shortage of people in Irish society who appear to imagine themselves as some moral authority, having nothing better to do than spend their time calling people hypocrites for anything and everything as if everyone sees them the same way they see themselves.

Ash.J.Williams

sabat wrote: »

So you're claiming that there was no improvement in the education, health, housing, social mobility etc of Irish people, including women, in the period between independence and about 10 years ago? Are you also claiming, seeing as it's the subject of the thread, that women and the disadvantaged have it better in countries where individualist spiritual religions dominate?

Imagine how better we would be without them

Odhinn

sabat wrote: »

So you're claiming that there was no improvement in the education, health, housing, social mobility etc of Irish people, including women, in the period between independence and about 10 years ago?

Progress was in spite of the church, not because of it.

joeguevara

Back to the point of the thread. Unless we know otherwise the yoga talked about is probably nothing more than basic exercises. Although true yoga does have a religious side such as altars, chanting etc in the west it is mainly secular. So the bishop was basically condemning stretching and breathing. That really is an out of touch way of doing things.

eviltwin

I do both yoga and mindfulness. Yoga for exercise and mindfulness for anxiety. I also do mindfulness with my son, it's a great tool for when he has an autism meltdown. I feel sorry for the children and adults who will be deprived of a useful tool because of outdated attitudes. Both practices may have their origin in religion but I don't think that's the draw for the overwhelming number of people who do them.

joeguevara

Schools have board of management and trustees who are better placed and have more experience in the care and education of children.

While bishops are like the board of directors of the church it is unlikely they know anything about what is good for children (no bad jokes).

I wonder did he take the time to experience the yoga and mindfulness first hand before writing a dogmatic letter. It is a throwback to the past by describing it as against the teachings of god. I remember getting a dressing down for saying I watched a Paul Daniels show as a young boy from the priest. We laughed at Bobby dufranes mother in the waterboy for saying fusball is the devil. This isn't much different

byhookorbycrook

As a primary teacher , I’d be wondering how a school had time for yoga in an already jam packed school day !

uck51js9zml2yt

joeguevara wrote: »

Schools have board of management and trustees who are better placed and have more experience in the care and education of children.

While bishops are like the board of directors of the church it is unlikely they know anything about what is good for children (no bad jokes).

I wonder did he take the time to experience the yoga and mindfulness first hand before writing a dogmatic letter. It is a throwback to the past by describing it as against the teachings of god. I remember getting a dressing down for saying I watched a Paul Daniels show as a young boy from the priest. We laughed at Bobby dufranes mother in the waterboy for saying fusball is the devil. This isn't much different

You don't need to stick your hand in the fire to know its dangerous.

It's a Hindu practice which uses positions to enable the participant unite with the spirit beings they worship and ultimately with Brahman.
Hindus know the power of the positions. Just because we in the west don't, doesn't negate the reality.
Of course in our western secular society we've become "enlightened" and dispensed with the spiritual aspect of the world in which we live and since we don't believe in them, they don't exist.

One eyed Jack

joeguevara wrote: »

Schools have board of management and trustees who are better placed and have more experience in the care and education of children.

While bishops are like the board of directors of the church it is unlikely they know anything about what is good for children (no bad jokes).

The Bishops of Ireland are the trustees of Catholic schools, and Boards of Management in Irish schools aren’t any more likely to have any more experience in the care and education of children than a Bishop, nor are they any more likely to know what is or isn’t good or bad for children than anyone else. Boards of Management are entirely voluntary bodies made up of representative members of the community - teachers, parents and patrons.

joeguevara wrote: »

I wonder did he take the time to experience the yoga and mindfulness first hand before writing a dogmatic letter. It is a throwback to the past by describing it as against the teachings of god. I remember getting a dressing down for saying I watched a Paul Daniels show as a young boy from the priest. We laughed at Bobby dufranes mother in the waterboy for saying fusball is the devil. This isn't much different

It’s very different, Bobby Dufranes mother wasn’t a representative of the Patron body of Catholic schools in Ireland.

Donald Trump

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Your point didn’t go over my head at all, I completely got what you’re saying, but what I’m saying is there’s no hypocrisy in taking one thing seriously and sneering at something else, when I don’t see them as being the same thing at all. You’re perfectly entitled of course to see them as the same thing and then invent the hypocrisy label for other people who don’t see things the way you do, but that’s entirely an invention of your own. Other people are free to disagree and it doesn’t make them hypocrites.

The reason I’m making the point is because for me, while prayer and reflection is the same in principle as closing their eyes and opening their mind is for someone else - I never got anything out of the new woo, whereas I do from practising my faith. Other people are of course going to feel the opposite - that they derive peace and contentment from what I regard as new woo. Neither of us are hypocrites, we just relate differently to different things and different ideas resonate more with either of us than other ideas which don’t.

The same can be said for any ideology, philosophy or world view you’d care to think of - nobody is under any obligation to regard them all equally, lest they be accused of hypocrisy because they don’t place equal value in all ideas. I have nothing against hypocrisy either btw, I’m a hypocrite in many, many ways. I wouldn’t take anyone calling other people hypocrites seriously though as it’s generally easy enough if I cared for their opinions, to point out that person’s hypocrisy, especially the type of people who claim everyone else should be tolerant of their particular bullshìt which they value and imagine everyone else should be obligated to take it as seriously as they do.

Attempts to introduce progressive nonsense that I would regard as of no educational value whatsoever in schools, is another good example, which is why I would never send my child to a school with that sort of ethos. Thankfully that is a choice I make as a parent that is protected under numerous human rights laws already, so I don’t have to take anyone seriously who calls me a hypocrite* because I’m not into their progressive new age woo nonsense.


*not aimed at you DT, but there’s no shortage of people in Irish society who appear to imagine themselves as some moral authority, having nothing better to do than spend their time calling people hypocrites for anything and everything as if everyone sees them the same way they see themselves.

Again, I think you missed something in what I had intended.


My point was not that you yourself should get the same out of meditating with a guru that you might get when praying in a church or that the converse should be true for someone else.


Say you have two people - Pat and Mary. Pat likes going to the mosque and having a pray and and a bit of chanting. Mary likes going off for a meditation session. Each likes doing their own pastime and each one makes each happy and content. But neither would get anything from the other pastime.





You can't really sneer at Pat as if he's an eejit and then turn around and say that Mary is enlighted or similar just because she's doing essentially the same thing via a different platform.


I'm not talking about any other requirements their pastimes might involve or require. Just the act of going to meditate or reflect. And I'm not saying that the bishop should not say what he said - I would be more surprised if he didn't!

Donald Trump

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

As a primary teacher , I’d be wondering how a school had time for yoga in an already jam packed school day !

I know what you mean. In soon after 9. Big rush then to get a break at 11. Then having to fit in another break at one before the parents collect the kids at 2. There are only so many hours in the day!! :pac:

Padre_Pio

Donald Trump wrote: »

I know what you mean. In soon after 9. Big rush then to get a break at 11. Then having to fit in another break at one before the parents collect the kids at 2. There are only so many hours in the day!! :pac:

You think the kids should work more hours?

One eyed Jack

Donald Trump wrote: »

You can't really sneer at Pat as if he's an eejit and then turn around and say that Mary is enlighted or similar just because she's doing essentially the same thing via a different platform.

I’m getting your point Don, I just disagree is all. I can sneer at either Pat or Mary, and the worst thing they can say is that I’m a hypocrite. My point is that I’d only care about being called a hypocrite if I thought either Pat or Mary were some sort of moral authority I was answerable to. I don’t sneer at people though as that’s just bad manners.

Their ideas on the other hand - I have no guilty conscience about being unwilling to entertain stupidity.

joeguevara

Kassandra Chubby Pavilion wrote: »

You don't need to stick your hand in the fire to know its dangerous.

It's a Hindu practice which uses positions to enable the participant unite with the spirit beings they worship and ultimately with Brahman.
Hindus know the power of the positions. Just because we in the west don't, doesn't negate the reality.
Of course in our western secular society we've become "enlightened" and dispensed with the spiritual aspect of the world in which we live and since we don't believe in them, they don't exist.

Yoga is a broad term and a lot of things get wrapped up in the term. It is more than likely that the yoga being done by the kids is nothing more than leg stretches or back stretches or balancing exercises. If he did not see what they were doing he was premature in a letter.

Donald Trump

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I’m getting your point Don, I just disagree is all. I can sneer at either Pat or Mary, and the worst thing they can say is that I’m a hypocrite. My point is that I’d only care about being called a hypocrite if I thought either Pat or Mary were some sort of moral authority I was answerable to. I don’t sneer at people though as that’s just bad manners.

Their ideas on the other hand - I have no guilty conscience about being unwilling to entertain stupidity.

You can sneer at both - I understand that.


Or you can sneer at neither - I understand that.


But sneering at one and not the other for doing effectively the same thing under different "brands" makes no sense.

But we can agree to disagree! No harm done


"you" as in general person. Not "you" personally