New Stations

CoBo55

IE 222 wrote: »

Were going to have to invest in are railways at some stage in the near future.

To name a few, €250 million on Westport - Clastebar, €300 million on the Adare bypass and €900 million on N20 upgrade, these are likely to be minimum figures and given Adare bypass will cost €300 I can't see Westport - Castlebar getting done for €250 million.

That kind of money would transform regional lines throughout the country rather than little pockets of road here and there.

At the same time state companies are possibly going to invest millions into reopening the Fyones line for freight. That €300 million for the bypass would reopen the line for passengers and a spur to Newcastle West along with all the other towns in between such as Dooradoyle, Raheen business park ect. and still offer a saving.

Cwr, a few colour light signals, ditch the signal man in the cabin and the ds&e is considered upgraded, at least it stopped the nostalgia boys from the UK coming over to laugh at us.

IE 222

Bass Reeves wrote: »

We do not have the population densities for trains to give regular services outside the greater Dublin area and maybe some lines into Cork.. Only a fraction of freight will travel by train. At present there is virtually no rail freight operations in Ireland. I cannot see Foynes rail line reopening. Adare Bypass is part of the Foynes port access route. It a motorway from the Limerick side of Adare going as far as Rathkeale and then going onto Foynes. It an EU funded port access plan. I imagine the 300 million is for the complete route from Foynes to access the motorway beyond Adare.

The N20 upgrade should have being done 10 years ago. Even if the motorways is routed to Cahir or Mitcheltown there will be a necessity to upgrade the N20 from Croom to Charlesville and From Buttervant to Rathduff and bypass, both towns as well as upgrade the Mallow bypass.

I'm not saying the money should be pumped into additional services. The level of services should always be determined by the level of demand. What I'm saying is providing the funds to improve the infrastructure, increase line speeds, remove bottlenecks ect. This itself will eventually increase demand.

Rail freight has more potential in the future and is slowly growing. The cost of road freight is only going to continue increasing. Rail will become a cheaper alternative.

Putting freight onto rail in Foyne's will remove the need for a motorway. Upgrading the line for passengers at the same time will be a massive benefit to Limerick overall and benefit a lot more people while also reducing congestion.

All the N20 needs is some more 2 plus 1 lanes between Croom and New Twopothouse. There is absolutely no need for bypasses. The level of traffic doesn't justify motorway status. Beyond regional commuting towns motorways are seriously underused.

In hindsight the M7 should of been built to Cahir and from there continued on as the M8. Upgrading the N18 to Ennis, the N24 and the N25 from Waterford to Wexford to dual carriageway would of been more than suffice for the whole southern half of the country instead of these individual motorways.

IE 222

CoBo55 wrote: »

Cwr, a few colour light signals, ditch the signal man in the cabin and the ds&e is considered upgraded, at least it stopped the nostalgia boys from the UK coming over to laugh at us.

Well if going to put together a shoestring budget for upgrades don't expect much in return.

How much has been spent on the M11 to date. The last section came in at €400 million with the best part of.a billion been spent on it so far. A fraction of that money would make a massive difference to the Wexford line.

loyatemu

IE 222 wrote: »

Greystones North would allow for a passing section and possibly allow for an increase of services around Bray head. There is also a large amount of housing in the Redford area which is a considerable walk from the current Greystones station.

Redford isn't that far from the village, it's maybe 15 minutes walk. I don't think there is any land zoned for housing there either (though it's close to the marina development).

there is certainly room for a passing loop and there is an engineering report on doubling the line between Greystones station and the first tunnel, but I'd be surprised if an extra station was opened. It would cancel out some of the capacity benefit of doubling the line for a start.

CoBo55

IE 222 wrote: »

Well if going to put together a shoestring budget for upgrades don't expect much in return.

How much has been spent on the M11 to date. The last section came in at €400 million with the best part of.a billion been spent on it so far. A fraction of that money would make a massive difference to the Wexford line.

Not much point if there's only 3 trains a day and nil goods traffic.

end of the road

Bass Reeves wrote: »

We do not have the population densities for trains to give regular services outside the greater Dublin area and maybe some lines into Cork..

incorrect. all of the lines that exist have the population dencities to support them. if they didn't, they would have closed in the 60s. 99% of the lines are heavily used and removing them would just hugely increase single car traffic.
ireland meeting it's transport needs via roads only is just not cost effective, and it is going to get to a stage where it is going to be way to expensive to maintain all of the road network we have if we keep building and expanding.

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Only a fraction of freight will travel by train.

there is scale for more of it to do so. you won't get every bit traveling by train and nobody is expecting that or even suggesting it. however to continue catering to the amounts traveling by roads which will likely increase, is going to become unaffordable.

Bass Reeves wrote: »

At present there is virtually no rail freight operations in Ireland.

incorrect, there is some freight in ireland traveling by train. freight from mayo, and freight from tara mines. small yes, but far from virtually no freight.

end of the road

CoBo55 wrote: »

Not much point if there's only 3 trains a day and nil goods traffic.

the service was increased from 3 trains a day back in 2004.

IE 222

loyatemu wrote: »

Redford isn't that far from the village, it's maybe 15 minutes walk. I don't think there is any land zoned for housing there either (though it's close to the marina development).

there is certainly room for a passing loop and there is an engineering report on doubling the line between Greystones station and the first tunnel, but I'd be surprised if an extra station was opened. It would cancel out some of the capacity benefit of doubling the line for a start.

It's about a 25 min walk for the avg person from the station to Redford. That's a considerable walk twice a day on top of the train journey. Add poor weather into the mix and most will take the car instead.

Trains will likely hold on the Greystones side of the tunnel waiting for a path to clear meaning the train will be stopped either way.

IE 222

CoBo55 wrote: »

Not much point if there's only 3 trains a day and nil goods traffic.

I wonder why that is.

ohographite

CoBo55 wrote: »

Not much point if there's only 3 trains a day and nil goods traffic.

Well, I think the Rosslare line should have 8 trains daily(at least).

Markcheese

Any idea how much a new station would be? (I get that restoring old station buildings is an indeterminate thing), but if there was a plan to put in lots of new stations, could it be done more cheaply,? with maybe modular pedestrian bridges and lift shafts..

Bass Reeves

end of the road wrote: »

incorrect. all of the lines that exist have the population dencities to support them. if they didn't, they would have closed in the 60s. 99% of the lines are heavily used and removing them would just hugely increase single car traffic.
ireland meeting it's transport needs via roads only is just not cost effective, and it is going to get to a stage where it is going to be way to expensive to maintain all of the road network we have if we keep building and expanding.

I was refering to commuting rail from towns outside cities other than Cork and Limerick not to the intercity rail. However an analysis of this is not great either. When you look at Sixmilebridge which is on the Ennis route and by definitation Galway 8 services/day will not encourage people to switch to rail. yes you will have a few that it suits as the timetable will align with there working hours. A timetable with only one-2 peak options will not change travelling behaviour. Better off a decent Bus timetable every 30 minutes or even more often

end of the road wrote: »

there is scale for more of it to do so. you won't get every bit traveling by train and nobody is expecting that or even suggesting it. however to continue catering to the amounts traveling by roads which will likely increase, is going to become unaffordable.

It hasn't so far

end of the road wrote: »

incorrect, there is some freight in ireland traveling by train. freight from mayo, and freight from tara mines. small yes, but far from virtually no freight.

Ireland is too small a country to have rail freight as an option. Goods coming into Foynes will gennerally be for that region. No point in loading gods onto a train to carry to Limerick, Cork or Galway unload them and put them on trucks for distribution.

rail freight works in general where the goods are travelling long distances. Yes there may be an option for some bulk delivers like ore but in general loading and unloading containers onto a train to travel less than 200 miles is not really an option.

Take Limerick Foynes loading a train to carry goods to Limerick to then unload in Limerick and heading maybe back out to Raheen when on a truck it would be there in 40 minutes from Foynes. Rail is inefficient for freight in Ireland

end of the road

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I was refering to commuting rail from towns outside cities other than Cork and Limerick not to the intercity rail. However an analysis of this is not great either. When you look at Sixmilebridge which is on the Ennis route and by definitation Galway 8 services/day will not encourage people to switch to rail. yes you will have a few that it suits as the timetable will align with there working hours. A timetable with only one-2 peak options will not change travelling behaviour. Better off a decent Bus timetable every 30 minutes or even more often

commuting to the smaller cities from towns isn't any less viable then commuting from towns to cork and dublin. it will require the building up of those cities sure, but that is going to have to happen anyway and rail is going to have to be a major part of the transport solution.

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It hasn't so far

lots of things haven't happened or been done so far. it doesn't mean things can't or won't change.
at the moment ireland has an unhealthy obsession with road transport and everything is geared to it. so of course you are only going to get small pockets of rail freight. however it is going to have to change or it will quite possibly be changed for us.

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Ireland is too small a country to have rail freight as an option. Goods coming into Foynes will gennerally be for that region. No point in loading gods onto a train to carry to Limerick, Cork or Galway unload them and put them on trucks for distribution.

ireland is perfectly suited to rail freight depending on the load.
transferring freight is not the massive job it would have been years ago with the big crains and gantries and loads remaining for long periods. these days it can simply be transferred to train from the ship (rail connection depending, can be solved with will) and at journeys end simply lifted to the truck within a very short period.
as i said, we are not going to be able to afford and sustain the amount of infrastructure that road only freight requires in the long term, so there will have to be a shift. there is no suggestion of moving everything to rail, that can't happen, but most certainly there are flows out there that can be transferred.

Bass Reeves wrote: »

rail freight works in general where the goods are travelling long distances. Yes there may be an option for some bulk delivers like ore but in general loading and unloading containers onto a train to travel less than 200 miles is not really an option.

it is an option but it will require a change of mindset from central government to allow for the conditions for it to be so. it will be easier for them to do it themselves then to have the changes forced upon them, which i reccan long term they will be so.

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Take Limerick Foynes loading a train to carry goods to Limerick to then unload in Limerick and heading maybe back out to Raheen when on a truck it would be there in 40 minutes from Foynes. Rail is inefficient for freight in Ireland

rail is not inefficient for freight in ireland. if it was there would be no freight at all. it's perfectly efficient depending on the load and sometimes the distance.
using short journeys such as foynes to limerick and to somewhere in limerick for example only proves that that particular flow may not be suited to rail freight, not that rail freight isn't viable in ireland, which it absolutely is and has been proven so, and continues to be proven so.

IE 222

Markcheese wrote: »

Any idea how much a new station would be? (I get that restoring old station buildings is an indeterminate thing), but if there was a plan to put in lots of new stations, could it be done more cheaply,? with maybe modular pedestrian bridges and lift shafts..

Unless it's a listed building or is of some sort importance there is no need to restore buildings. It will either be removed or fenced off unless its actually needed.

In terms of platforms and infrastructure it depends on the local terrain and demand really. With single track lines, to save on costs they may only construct one platform without a passing loop or they may build the loop beyond the platform if ones required. If 2 platforms are built and each have accessible entrances to the local access road, lifts and footbridge isn't required.

IE 222

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I was refering to commuting rail from towns outside cities other than Cork and Limerick not to the intercity rail. However an analysis of this is not great either. When you look at Sixmilebridge which is on the Ennis route and by definitation Galway 8 services/day will not encourage people to switch to rail. yes you will have a few that it suits as the timetable will align with there working hours. A timetable with only one-2 peak options will not change travelling behaviour. Better off a decent Bus timetable every 30 minutes or even more often



It hasn't so far



Ireland is too small a country to have rail freight as an option. Goods coming into Foynes will gennerally be for that region. No point in loading gods onto a train to carry to Limerick, Cork or Galway unload them and put them on trucks for distribution.

rail freight works in general where the goods are travelling long distances. Yes there may be an option for some bulk delivers like ore but in general loading and unloading containers onto a train to travel less than 200 miles is not really an option.

Take Limerick Foynes loading a train to carry goods to Limerick to then unload in Limerick and heading maybe back out to Raheen when on a truck it would be there in 40 minutes from Foynes. Rail is inefficient for freight in Ireland

You can't justify the importance of a regional line on just one town. The service in its entirety is a link between Limerick and Galway while also serving Ennis, it's not the Sixmilebridge service. The service also feeds passengers into intercity services to Dublin and Cork and elsewhere.

Your right "so far" is the point were making. Freight costs are going through the roof. Insurance, fuel, taxes, wages and most likely border checks in the near future will increase the cost. How will electric trucks fair with heavy loads ect, time will tell.

Fyones is going to be a tier 1 national bulk port. Yes a good chunk of the material will be for local needs but a good bit of it won't be. It's the only port on the west coast and it serves the whole of the west.

I don't think you really have a grasp on the idea of rail freight to be fair. I don't think anyone is suggesting to use rail instead of road to shift a couple of containers between Fyones and Raheen.

The entry point of goods is usually determined by the shipping company's routes or the origin of the shipment rather than the local port of the shipments final destination. For example, Cork receives something like 50 plus containers of bananas every week, these bananas are all sent up to Dublin for storage, even the bananas for Cork go to Dublin and come back down again when ready. Rail is about removing large shipments like this that are not necessarily local movements of the road. The ballina service removes at least 8000 truck kilometres off the road a day. Why use 18 trucks and drivers to shift goods from point a to point b when 1 train can do it.

Jem72

Reopening Killucan or possible a new station in the area at heart of a new town would make a lot of sense but it would probably need massive investment to re-double the section between Mullingar and Maynooth. But there is a fundamental political decision needed as to how we're going to move people around in the net-zero carbon economy that will inevitably appear in the next 20 years. If we're still in the mindset of throwing hundreds of millions of euro at relatively small road projects, there is little point in investing in station re-openings and rail development. But we'll find out to our cost in 20 years time that we made a really bad decision

There is likely to be a major investment in improving the N4 between Mullingar and Longford in the next few years. If this happens, that corridor will be opened up to a proper high-frequency bus service. This could cause the closure of the Sligo line beyond Longford or even Mullingar as even currently the train is hopelessly uncompetitive on price with the M4 direct bus service between Edgeworthstown and Dublin. With a motorway knocking 10 minutes off the journey time and the train getting a minute or two slower every year, it won't be long before the bus beats it on time as well.

dowlingm

Jem72 wrote: »

There is likely to be a major investment in improving the N4 between Mullingar and Longford in the next few years. If this happens, that corridor will be opened up to a proper high-frequency bus service. This could cause the closure of the Sligo line beyond Longford or even Mullingar as even currently the train is hopelessly uncompetitive on price with the M4 direct bus service between Edgeworthstown and Dublin. With a motorway knocking 10 minutes off the journey time and the train getting a minute or two slower every year, it won't be long before the bus beats it on time as well.

If the rail is limited by an unwillingness to invest (in additional doubling or dynamic loops or removal of PSRs), but roads benefit from investment... then we can either accept the inevitable scenario you paint - or maybe change political minds on investing in the rail network? If Maynooth DART happens then without some additional track capacity to the west it is likely that InterCity and outer suburban will struggle to get sufficient suitable paths anyway.

Pete_Cavan

Has there been any more on a potential new station at Kylemore Road? There are plans for more than 2,000 apartments on the Naas Road with half of them planned for a redevelopment of the Royal Liver Retail Park so there should be the population for it in the not too distant future.

L1011

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Has there been any more on a potential new station at Kylemore Road? There are plans for more than 2,000 apartments on the Naas Road with half of them planned for a redevelopment of the Royal Liver Retail Park so there should be the population for it in the not too distant future.

It's going to be done for the Hazelhatch DART, which is actually underway process-wise now. Maynooth line first then it

Pete_Cavan

L1011 wrote: »

It's going to be done for the Hazelhatch DART, which is actually underway process-wise now. Maynooth line first then it

So Hazelhatch DART includes electrification, quad-tracking (with necessarybbridge replacements) and the new station all in one go?

Is it Maynooth first then Hazelhatch or will both be done in parallel? Am I right in saying that tenders for consultants for both Maynooth and Hazelhatch have been issued? Maynooth will be a bit of a battle planning wise with level crossings removal so if Hazelhatch has to wait for it then it could be waiting for a while.

L1011

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

So Hazelhatch DART includes electrification, quad-tracking (with necessarybbridge replacements) and the new station all in one go?

Is it Maynooth first then Hazelhatch or will both be done in parallel? Am I right in saying that tenders for consultants for both Maynooth and Hazelhatch have been issued? Maynooth will be a bit of a battle planning wise with level crossings removal so if Hazelhatch has to wait for it then it could be waiting for a while.

Yes (first question), apparently first (second) and yes (third) but with staged end dates, Maynooth should be announced soon. The new depot is to be on the Maynooth line so that would probably force it first!

DoctorPan

Invitations for tender issued for Phases 1 & 2 of Dart Expansion. Full tender for Maynooth has come and gone, announcement to follow shortly. It is then expected that tender for Hazelhatch be issued then.

As mentioned, Maynooth line has the depot and capacity improvements for Docklands and Connolly built into it and so is the leader in terms of prioity.

Infini

L1011 wrote: »

Yes (first question), apparently first (second) and yes (third) but with staged end dates, Maynooth should be announced soon. The new depot is to be on the Maynooth line so that would probably force it first!

Will it be on the Maynooth line or the M3 spur tho? Would make more sense to locate it there if Im not mistaken as thats a dead end line right now, I also heard some rumors that they've taken validators and stuff out of M3 recently as they're converting part of the station into offices for the project.

Pete_Cavan

L1011 wrote: »

Yes (first question), apparently first (second) and yes (third) but with staged end dates, Maynooth should be announced soon. The new depot is to be on the Maynooth line so that would probably force it first!

Thanks. I don't like the sound of Hazelhatch being at the mercy of Maynooth progress as a couple of the level crossing removals will be contentious.

L1011

Infini wrote: »

Will it be on the Maynooth line or the M3 spur tho? Would make more sense to locate it there if Im not mistaken as thats a dead end line right now, I also heard some rumors that they've taken validators and stuff out of M3 recently as they're converting part of the station into offices for the project.

Site was identified before Maynooth but I don't know if that can change

Jamie2k9

They will unlikely have moved away from Maynooth for depot. It makes way more sense operationally. Given the scale of project they could base ops in M3 during works as space is limited in Connolly I would say.

alias no.9

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Has there been any more on a potential new station at Kylemore Road? There are plans for more than 2,000 apartments on the Naas Road with half of them planned for a redevelopment of the Royal Liver Retail Park so there should be the population for it in the not too distant future.

The railway runs north of Kylemore Park, I doubt too many future residents of a development at Royal Liver would fancy that walk to a new station there when the Luas is right outside, that's before you take into account the drama that may unfold around the canal bridge and labre park.

CatInABox

Irish Rail are planning to apply for Woodbrook Station in Q1 2020, according to the NTA. It's mentioned in a letter of support for the Woodbrook strategic development plan.

The letter is here.

The site for the entire development is here.

IE 222

CatInABox wrote: »

Irish Rail are planning to apply for Woodbrook Station in Q1 2020, according to the NTA. It's mentioned in a letter of support for the Woodbrook strategic development plan.

The letter is here.

The site for the entire development is here.

Why isn't the developer been made fund this or at least some of it.

Any new station been built in the Dublin region should be built for quad tracking even it's not likely to be done. Having the opportunity of possibly using the station to allow for overtaking will be major benefit and cost saving if done now.

L1011

Local Housing Infrastructure Activation Fund is paying for works that developers would have been made pay for and in return they have to prove they're offering the houses cheaper.

Remember that "make the developer pay" does just mean "make the house buyers pay"