The strange affair of Dimmy Tooley

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

We've had a few of the usual playing it down and talking around it TBF.

Yeah right, I think you are making things up again.

Back that up or back down.

Nobody has condoned voting for someone not in the Dail.

blanch152

bladespin wrote: »

We have voters who were not present who's vote was cast and counted, in my organisation that would require another vote, previous vote would be nullified.
Legally I'm not sure but as I said already, it's open to question now and so could be challenged.

I have asked before on what legal basis it could be challenged and have had a blank response.

A lot of posters on here are in the habit of losing the run of themselves and proclaiming this and that to be illegal or a crime with zero to back them up.

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

I have asked before on what legal basis it could be challenged and have had a blank response.

A lot of posters on here are in the habit of losing the run of themselves and proclaiming this and that to be illegal or a crime with zero to back them up.

A lot of people on here have a habit of putting words into other people's mouths.

For instance, I posted that the justice minister made a statement that he wanted an investigation to take place into "illegalities" surrounding voting in the Dail.

I was responded to in kind with a lot of legalese mumbo jumbo about something illegal not being a crime, when the only time I read anything about a crime was in the post that quoted me........

blanch152

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

A lot of people on here have a habit of putting words into other people's mouths.

For instance, I posted that the justice minister made a statement that he wanted an investigation to take place into "illegalities" surrounding voting in the Dail.

I was responded to in kind with a lot of legalese mumbo jumbo about something illegal not being a crime, when the only time I read anything about a crime was in the post that quoted me........

Yes, and it took me to point out that what Dooley and Collins did was illegal but not a crime, and that what Flanagan et al had claimed to do may well have been bad practice but did not appear to be illegal. Nobody has been able to point to any statute, legal precedent or constitutional provision that contradicts that.

As one of those who equated Collins and Dooley to Flanagan, you therefore appear to be one of those shouting about non-existent illegalities.

Remind me what is illegal about being in the Dail chamber and asking someone else to press the button on your seat.

charlie14

blanch152 wrote: »

Yes, and it took me to point out that what Dooley and Collins did was illegal but not a crime, and that what Flanagan et al had claimed to do may well have been bad practice but did not appear to be illegal. Nobody has been able to point to any statute, legal precedent or constitutional provision that contradicts that.

As one of those who equated Collins and Dooley to Flanagan, you therefore appear to be one of those shouting about non-existent illegalities.

Remind me what is illegal about being in the Dail chamber and asking someone else to press the button on your seat.

From anyone I have talked to the view of the general public on, "illegal but not a crime and bad practice that does not to appear to be illegal" is the equivalent of two bald men fighting over a comb.
Far as they are concerned it is TD`s casting votes for other TD`s.and regardless of those TD`s being in the chamber, outside the chamber or in Timbuktu, if they are not pressing the button themselves then nobody else should be pressing it.

uptherebels

bladespin wrote: »

We have voters who were not present who's vote was cast and counted, in my organisation that would require another vote, previous vote would be nullified.
Legally I'm not sure but as I said already, it's open to question now and so could be challenged.

Unless the extra votes swung a decision, there would be nothing to challenge.

Boggles

Gru wrote: »

These people dont respect the office and responsibilities they hold. If they are willing to show little/no respect for voting then what else are they willing to do with no concern for ethics or fraudulent activities. We shouldn't accept it at all no matter the party.

Look away, this is really going to boil your bollíx.

Michael and Danny Healy Rae miss 80pc of vote sessions in the Dáil

McMurphy

Boggles wrote: »

Look away, this is really going to boil your boll

Michael and Danny Healy Rae miss 80pc of vote sessions in the D

Heard one of the two of them on Newstalk the other day stating that they could say without s shadow of a doubt that he'd never voted for his brother or anyone else before, and neither has he ever asked his brother or anyone else to vote for him either.

With attendance records like that, I believe that statement to be true.

Boggles

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Heard one of the two of them on Newstalk the other day stating that they could say without s shadow of a doubt that he'd never voted for his brother or anyone else before, and neither has he ever asked his brother or anyone else to vote for him either.

With attendance records like that, I believe that statement to be true.

Too busy eating cones.

I imagine they are not alone with poor attendance TBF, all though 85% is pretty impressive.

Underlines what I was saying about voting in general though, the vast vast majority of it is already predetermined.

suicide_circus

Boggles wrote: »

Look away, this is really going to boil your boll

Michael and Danny Healy Rae miss 80pc of vote sessions in the D

They fixed the road!

Boggles

suicide_circus wrote: »

They fixed the road!

TBF it would appear their vote is "useless" so they might as well focus on fixing a road.

At least something tangible and worthwhile happens.

FishOnABike

blanch152 wrote: »

Yes, and it took me to point out that what Dooley and Collins did was illegal but not a crime, and that what Flanagan et al had claimed to do may well have been bad practice but did not appear to be illegal. Nobody has been able to point to any statute, legal precedent or constitutional provision that contradicts that.

As one of those who equated Collins and Dooley to Flanagan, you therefore appear to be one of those shouting about non-existent illegalities.

Remind me what is illegal about being in the Dail chamber and asking someone else to press the button on your seat.

Let's use a car analogy. If I (with a full driving licence) am in the passenger seat in a car and telling an unlicenced person in the driving seat what to do, who us driving the car?

Members of the Dáil should be "present and voting" there is no mechanism for proxy voting. A TD getting someone to vote on their behalf is no more voting than I would be driving when sitting in the passenger seat telling someone else how to drive.

Boggles

FishOnABike wrote: »

Let's use a car analogy. If I (with a full driving licence) am in the passenger seat in a car and telling an unlicenced person in the driving seat what to do, who us driving the car?

Members of the Dáil should be "present and voting" there is no mechanism for proxy voting. A TD getting someone to vote on their behalf is no more voting than I would be driving when sitting in the passenger seat telling someone else how to drive.

There is only one "driver" in the whip system telling everyone else which way to drive.

EmmetSpiceland

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Heard one of the two of them on Newstalk the other day stating that they could say without s shadow of a doubt that he'd never voted for his brother or anyone else before, and neither has he ever asked his brother or anyone else to vote for him either.

With attendance records like that, I believe that statement to be true.

He did give us a funny story about a “mishap” involving his belt and the voting box. A few more tales like that and no one will care about the lack of attendance.

There really should be a minimum for missed attendance, especially for voting days. Same goes for the European Parliament.

bladespin

blanch152 wrote: »

I have asked before on what legal basis it could be challenged and have had a blank response.

A lot of posters on here are in the habit of losing the run of themselves and proclaiming this and that to be illegal or a crime with zero to back them up.

Hence the question whether or not a crime or illegality has happened, it’s not for me to decide but I’m entitled to ask.

171170

Boggles wrote: »

Look away, this is really going to boil your bollíx.

In fairness to the pair of them, they probably didn't understand the legislation being voted on, so wisely opted not to vote.

bladespin

uptherebels wrote: »

Unless the extra votes swung a decision, there would be nothing to challenge.

A spoiled vote is one thing but a spoiled count is something different.

It’s possible now to question any decision as the system has been proven to be compromised.

FishOnABike

Boggles wrote: »

There is only one "driver" in the whip system telling everyone else which way to drive.

TDs will normally vote along party lines but they should still be casting the vote themselves. They can abstain or vote against the whip, and risk sanction, if they feel strongly enough about something.

Nod and a wink proxy voting undermines the fundamental principles of our democratic system.

sliabh 1956

"A Fianna Fail TD at the centre of the ‘votegate’ controversy has been elected to a prestigious role in a major European Parliament political grouping.Clare TD Timmy Dooley was re-elected this morning as one of six vice-presidents of the Alde Group, which is Fianna Fail’s affiliated political grouping in the European Parliament."

This is from todays indo. Well Well just as I expected no serious fallout for Timmy and his collusion in the Dail Voting debacle and people think we should take politcs serious what a joke to whole thing is.

Calhoun

Looks like its starting to hit them in the polls, the question is will it damage them for long.

expectationlost

is Catherine Murphy saying she can't tell the difference between somebody sitting in a seat and an empty seat? https://www.businesspost.ie/news/big-beasts-pushing-others-buttons-455700

Murphy herself had been a teller for some of the votes when Collins had pressed Dooley’s voting button on six occasions. She says she didn’t notice anything amiss, but said neither she nor the Ceann Comhairle or his officials could be expected to spot such irregularities.

“As a teller, all my role was to make sure that what was on screen would be correctly recorded on paper. You couldn’t with the best will in the world match the individual deputies to set seats.

“I think it would have been impossible for the Ceann Comhairle to tell as well.”

it seesm to me that TDs have mixed up the role of teller and whip

PF: What did you see your role as the Teller including on the day in question?
Deputy Catherine Muprhy: You make sure you know your own Group and the numbers. You make sure they are all there and you check the screen to see if any adjustments are required and reflect that in the vote. As far as I can recall there were no adjustments in the votes I was Teller for on that day , although I couldn’t be sure
PF: Did you see any role for you as teller in relation to the other Groups on the day?
DM: Not really, no. I wouldn’t have thought that I had any role in that regard

Denise Mitchell: I make sure that what I am signing off on reflects the actual vote. In relation to the numbers, you just make sure that your people are in their seats and all voting in accordance with the whip in our block.

see how they say they check their group. There are 4 tellers but more then 4 groups the tellers between them should be checking everything that can be checked.

Plumbthedepths

Hildegard Naughten had to recuse herself from the investigation her committee is leading into the 4 FF TD's as she too voted on behalf of fellow TDs. She was advised by legal counsel to do so. Ironic that she replaced the swing gate TD Maria Bailey as Chair of said committee. You really couldn't make this stuff up.
At this stage the only ones in Dail Eireann with integrity are visitors.

lola85

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Hildegard Naughten had to recuse herself from the investigation her committee is leading into the 4 FF TD's as she too voted on behalf of fellow TDs. She was advised by legal counsel to do so. Ironic that she replaced the swing gate TD Maria Bailey as Chair of said committee. You really couldn't make this stuff up.
At this stage the only ones in Dail Eireann with integrity are visitors.

I think the difference is she was present in the chamber as opposed to the FF reps, same as SF Labour etc.

Correct me if I’m wrong??

charlie14

lola85 wrote: »

I think the difference is she was present in the chamber as opposed to the FF reps, same as SF Labour etc.

Correct me if I’m wrong??

She used someone else`s vote.

If you or I did similar in a polling booth it would not matter whether the other person was inside or outside the polling station.
I do not see how it should be any different in Dáil Éireann.

lola85

charlie14 wrote: »

She used someone else`s vote.

If you or I did similar in a polling booth it would not matter whether the other person was inside or outside the polling station.
I do not see how it should be any different in Dáil Éireann.

Agreed.

Unfortunately looks like they will all get away with it as no law was broken.

Marvelous.

McMurphy

You couldn't make this 5hit up, chair of the ethics committee had to give up the chair because of falling off a swing and trying to demand cash from the business owners, to be replaced by another swivel eyed gombeen who has had to step aside from an investigation surrounding voting malpractice, because she has been at it too.

Welcome to new politics Ireland 2019.

suicide_circus

RTE do a full analysis here of TDs clocking in to Leinster House (for expenses claims purposes) yet did not participating in Dail votes

https://www.rte.ie/news/investigations-unit/2019/1030/1087550-attendance-record-and-travel-expenses/

The two Healy-Rae brothers at the top of the list but they could commit mass murder and they'd still get voted in, there's an argument to be made that its for the best that they dont vote!

The list is a long one and it makes a mockery of our democracy while surprising absolutely no one. Chancers.

blanch152

charlie14 wrote: »

She used someone else`s vote.

If you or I did similar in a polling booth it would not matter whether the other person was inside or outside the polling station.
I do not see how it should be any different in Dáil Éireann.

A few elections ago, I indicated my preferences on a ballot paper and my son (not entitled to vote at the time) put my ballot paper into the ballot box for me. Should the election be anulled?

A TD in the Chamber indicates his preference to a colleague who presses the button for him, how is that different?

The preference had been indicated, the execution of the preference was done by someone else.

blanch152

suicide_circus wrote: »

RTE do a full analysis here of TDs clocking in to Leinster House (for expenses claims purposes) yet did not participating in Dail votes

https://www.rte.ie/news/investigations-unit/2019/1030/1087550-attendance-record-and-travel-expenses/

The two Healy-Rae brothers at the top of the list but they could commit mass murder and they'd still get voted in, there's an argument to be made that its for the best that they dont vote!

The list is a long one and it makes a mockery of our democracy while surprising absolutely no one. Chancers.

From that list, you can excuse a number of them - Enda Kenny as Dail convention is that a former Taoiseach does not vote except in money bills, budget and confidence motions, Micheal Martin and Mary-Lou McDonald who as busy party leaders will have a lot of other business while in the Dail. Some of the others - John McGuinness, Sean Sherlock - are chairpersons of Dail committees who possibly could also be excused on that basis (less sure of how much work they do in those roles), but when you look at some of the others - Danny Healy-Rae, Noel Grealish, Michael Lowry, Gerry Adams, Stephen Donnelly, Joan Collins etc. you wonder what possible reason or excuse they could have.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

...

The preference had been indicated, the execution of the preference was done by someone else.

AFAYK he may have slipped in a vote for the Shinners?

If we trust their word. I personally don't. They are supposed to vote so they are responsible. This opens them up to "well I told X to vote yes".

blanch152 wrote: »

From that list, you can excuse a number of them - Enda Kenny as Dail convention is that a former Taoiseach does not vote except in money bills, budget and confidence motions, Micheal Martin and Mary-Lou McDonald who as busy party leaders will have a lot of other business while in the Dail. Some of the others - John McGuinness, Sean Sherlock - are chairpersons of Dail committees who possibly could also be excused on that basis (less sure of how much work they do in those roles), but when you look at some of the others - Danny Healy-Rae, Noel Grealish, Michael Lowry, Gerry Adams, Stephen Donnelly, Joan Collins etc. you wonder what possible reason or excuse they could have.

Maybe the excuse the others put in where they don't vote if an opposite number doesn't? Meetings in the Dail, only voting for important votes etc. Not excusable in the grand scheme. I'd say a handful of days might be excused but there is some serious piss taking going on.
Maybe we could link payment to voting or something? FYI: this is a question. I don't know if that's viable. Just discussing.