The strange affair of Dimmy Tooley

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

Given that I voted Green in the last election, and have no political allegiance of any kind, I am not twisting anything for any purpose.

I am making a distinction between bad practice and illegality. Both are wrong, but one is worse than the other.

To quote the Beano, "Tee Hee".
The distinction you are at great pains to make is when FG do it it's okay because they are in the vicinity, (except when they aren't) but everyone else doing it is terrible altogether. I do not make that distinction and I'd warrant neither do most people.

blanch152

charlie14 wrote: »

Of course you are twisting for whatever reason by attempting to make the point that it is legal for someone to press the button of other members because they are in the chamber yet it is illegal for them to do so when these members are not in the chamber.


Article 15.11.1 makes no reference to the chamber. It only references the

House of the Oireachtas where the vote is taking place.


By your argument if a member is anywhere in the relevant House then it is acceptable for others to vote on their behalf.
Ridiculous and disingenuous IMO.

Article 15.11.1 isn't the end of it, there are Dail Standing Orders as well, which require you in the Chamber to vote.

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

To quote the Beano, "Tee Hee".
The distinction you are at great pains to make is when FG do it it's okay because they are in the vicinity, (except when they aren't) but everyone else doing it is terrible altogether. I do not make that distinction and I'd warrant neither do most people.

Nope, I have excused Gerry Adams because he immediately corrected the record, does that make me a Shinner?

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

Nope, I have excused Gerry Adams because he immediately corrected the record, does that make me a Shinner?

Maybe....

I tried to keep an all party all politician discussion on topic and was accused of same so I feel your pain.
He's excused on that because he corrected the record.
I see them all equally culpable. Some might be more ridiculous.

expectationlost

Pedro K wrote: »

Gerry Adams immediately made the tellers aware of the mistake, and Adams didn't vote again like Chambers did. They noted it on the debate record on the day as you can see here.

he didn't _immediately_ make the tellers aware of it, if he had it wouldnt show at all, afaik the record of mistaken vote was made the next day.

is_that_so

blanch152 wrote: »

Article 15.11.1 isn't the end of it, there are Dail Standing Orders as well, which require you in the Chamber to vote.

Which one? I can't find it. There is plenty on quorums, divisions and the ringing of the division bell and locking doors and voting procedures but very little on there being a mandatory requirement for TDs to vote.

charlie14

blanch152 wrote: »

Article 15.11.1 isn't the end of it, there are Dail Standing Orders as well, which require you in the Chamber to vote.

Perhaps I missed it and you would be good enough to point out where this Dáil Standing Order is that requires members to be in the chamber to vote.

Dáil Éireann Standing Orders 2016. Casting vote and abstentions.

Standing Order 77 (1) Quotes Article 15.11.1. verbatim with no mention of the chamber. Nor is it mentioned in any section of Standing Order 77. It only refers to Dáil Éireann

Standing Order 77 (2). The phrase "members present and voting" means "members present and casting an affirmative or negative vote"...........

expectationlost

charlie14 wrote: »

Perhaps I missed it and you would be good enough to point out where this D Standing Order is that requires members to be in the chamber to vote.

D reann Standing Orders 2016. Casting vote and abstentions.

Standing Order 77 (1) Quotes Article 15.11.1. verbatim with no mention of the chamber. Nor is it mentioned in any section of Standing Order 77. It only refers to D reann

Standing Order 77 (2). The phrase "members present and voting" means "members present and casting an affirmative or negative vote"...........

how do you vote if you are not in the chamber?

charlie14

expectationlost wrote: »

how do you vote if you are not in the chamber?

Great efforts are being made here by some to claim it is perfectly fine legal and dandy for another TD to press others voting buttons if they are in the chamber yet it is illegal if they do so if these others are outside the chamber.

As nothing in the Constitution or Dáil Standing Orders relating to voting mentions the chamber, only the relevant House of the Oireachtas, (in this case the Dáil), then this claim is nonsense as it would make it legal for any member to vote on others behalf as long as those others were anywhere within the House.

expectationlost

blanch152 wrote: »

I decided who I was voting for (marked the ballot paper) and my son formalised it (put the ballot paper in the box).

A TD decided who they were voting for (informed a colleague) and the colleague formalised it (pushed the button).

Now if the TD was not in the Dail Chamber, that is a very different issue, similar to what you have described.

The key thing is that anyone who is recorded as voting must have been in the Chamber and the vote must have been in accordance with their expressed preference.

in electronic divisions voting is all one action, pressing one of the buttons.

bladespin

Going back to my original question (though I got trolled for asking): is any authority (Gardai?) investigating these goings on to check for legality, criminality? Or are they above the law as such and simply investigate themselves???


Honest question, who keeps these eegits on the straight and narrow?

Itssoeasy

Lads, can we all agree that the voting practices in the houses of the oireachtas have at best become very lack over the years ? I don't think either of the two main parties(historically I mean) have done themselves any favours with this whole mess. I think in the standing orders link I posted it didn't make specific references to the seat, and according to Lisa chambers she was confused as to which seat she was in.

I would hope as someone who has voted in every dail I've been eligible to vote that this issue is sorted and that the integrity of the dail voting record isn't an issue going forward.

charlie14

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Lads, can we all agree that the voting practices in the houses of the oireachtas have at best become very lack over the years ? I don't think either of the two main parties(historically I mean) have done themselves any favours with this whole mess. I think in the standing orders link I posted it didn't make specific references to the seat, and according to Lisa chambers she was confused as to which seat she was in.

I would hope as someone who has voted in every dail I've been eligible to vote that this issue is sorted and that the integrity of the dail voting record isn't an issue going forward.

Voting practices in the Houses of the Oireachtas has certainly become very slack, with practically all and sundry being culpable and needs to be stamped out.


What has irked me over the whole affair is one party in particular, (and certain posters here), attempting to muddy the waters for political gain claiming it was fine and dandy to press the voting button of others on the basis they were in the chamber but not in their seats.


Very poor form, especially from a government party, when the Constitution and Dáil Standing Orders both show this up for the political opportunism it is.

expectationlost

its knowing the difference between right and wrong

expectationlost

bladespin wrote: »

Going back to my original question (though I got trolled for asking): is any authority (Gardai?) investigating these goings on to check for legality, criminality? Or are they above the law as such and simply investigate themselves???


Honest question, who keeps these eegits on the straight and narrow?

the relevant law is the ethics act and public standards acts which says a code of conduct must be written and followed,with sanctions such a suspension from the Dail of up to 30 days, the acts are really aimed at finances (fraud and conflicts of interest)
https://www.sipo.ie/acts-and-codes/codes-of-conduct/tds/index.xml
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/act/31/enacted/en/print.html

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1995/act/22/enacted/en/print#sec8


the first step is an investigation by the members interest committee. If its considered that the politician's conduct does not bring the integrity of your office or the Dail into disrepute they be suspended for up to 30 days (numerous papers have reported this up to 30 day sanction but I can't find where its written down, perhaps its not)

the code see point 2 https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/committee/dail/32/committee_on_members_interests_dail_eireann/termsOfReference/2002/2002-02-28_non-office-holding-deputies-code-of-conduct_en.pdf

bladespin

expectationlost wrote: »

the relevant law is the ethics and public standards acts ...

Thanks you, finally someone who wants to inform rather than lecture, a refreshing change here.

So they effectively police themselves? Or am I reading this wrong?

expectationlost

bladespin wrote: »

Thanks you, finally someone who wants to inform rather than lecture, a refreshing change here.

So they effectively police themselves? Or am I reading this wrong?

i don't think its that clear im not really sure what I wrote in that post is right.



yes our politicians mainly police themselves, the standards in public office commission which is made of of a retired judge, the controller and auditor general, the ombudsman, the clerk of the Dail and the Seanad and a former politician who will investigate office holders ie ministers, https://sipo.ie/about/our-members/ but ordinary members are investigated by the committee on procedures and the members interests committee.

charlie14

expectationlost wrote: »

i don't think its that clear im not really sure what I wrote in that post is right.



yes our politicians mainly police themselves, the standards in public office commission which is made of of a retired judge, the controller and auditor general, the ombudsman, the clerk of the Dail and the Seanad and a former politician who will investigate office holders ie ministers, https://sipo.ie/about/our-members/ but ordinary members are investigated by the committee on procedures and the members interests committee.

It is a bit confusing. From my understanding, and I may be wrong, but it seems there has been a report by the Clerk of the Dáil to the Committee on Procedure but that the terms of reference were confined to the early media reports.

On the subject of Members who voted on behalf of another Member only Lisa Chambers, Niall Collins and Barry Cowen were interviewed.
On Members who were recorded as voting but were not present in the chamber, only Dara Calleary and Timmy Dooley were interviewed.

Whether others who have admitted to voting on behalf of another member or those that may not have been present but were recorded as voting are going to be interviewed is unclear.
There appears to have been a number of complaints under the Ethics in Public Office Acts which may or not be something to do with that but the advise from the Chief Parliamentary Legal Adviser is that it would not be appropriate for the Committee on Procedure to encroach on the functions of the Select Committee on Members Interests.

As clear as mud really as to who is watching the watchmen/women.

high_king

Shows the respect these scum and charlatans have for legislative votes and their actual roll.

high_king

bladespin wrote: »

Going back to my original question (though I got trolled for asking): is any authority (Gardai?) investigating these goings on to check for legality, criminality? Or are they above the law as such and simply investigate themselves???


Honest question, who keeps these eegits on the straight and narrow?

No one. White collar crime laws, even where they do exist in Ireland, are enforced once in a blue moon.

high_king

expectationlost wrote: »

the relevant law is the ethics act and public standards acts which says a code of conduct must be written and followed,with sanctions such a suspension from the Dail of up to 30 days, the acts are really aimed at finances (fraud and conflicts of interest)

the first step is an investigation by the members interest committee. If its considered that the politician's conduct does not bring the integrity of your office or the Dail into disrepute they be supended for up to 30 days (numerous papers have reported this up to 30 day sanction but I can't find where its written down, perhaps its not)

the code see point 2

None of this is enforced in reality, and on the rare occasion it is, it's a quickly forgotten, non deterring slap on the wrist.

NovemberWren

Dooley, v.g. about the rickshaw/sh.ross, "minishhtr, we could have lost ya".

charlie14

NovemberWren wrote: »

Dooley, v.g. about the rickshaw/sh.ross, "minishhtr, we could have lost ya".

That wan`t Dooley. It was Mick Barry TD Cork North Central.
Great comment though.:D

biko

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Charlie Flanagan (even though admitted to doing similar) seems to think what happened was illegal. What would be know though, he's only the justice minister.

For the minister of Justice to say voting for another person is illegal but doing it himself should mean he intend to step down.
We cannot have a minister of justice who is so frivolous with his words.

high_king

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Charlie Flanagan (even though admitted to doing similar) seems to think what happened was illegal. What would be know though, he's only the justice minister.

I suspect charlie might wind his neck in a bit now though, seeing as it's alleged a few minister's from his own team are alleged to have done the same thing.

biko wrote: »

For the minister of Justice to say voting for another person is illegal but doing it himself should mean he intend to step down.
We cannot have a minister of justice who is so frivolous with his words.

Ah Charlie . . if you believed him, you'd believe anything.

It's fairly easy to tell when Charlie is spinning a scam . . his lips are moving.

uck51js9zml2yt

It's great being so incensed by it all, but guaranteed they will all top the polls next spring.
We get the government we deserve. No more, no less

I'm looking forward to the Healy Rae's Calling to my door.

suicide_circus

we have a big problem with the way the office of TD is used. The national parliament should deal with national and international issue. Local issues should be dealt with by local councils. No one should be elected to the Dail because they fixed a pothole or went to a funeral, its so self defeating.

Maverick Refined Illusion

Maverick Refined Illusion wrote: »

I'm looking forward to the Healy Rae's Calling to my door.

I'm going to tell Timmy I'll get one of the lads to vote for him..

(I won't though..waste of time..)

expectationlost

biko wrote: »

For the minister of Justice to say voting for another person is illegal but doing it himself should mean he intend to step down.
We cannot have a minister of justice who is so frivolous with his words.

he didn't say what he did was illegal he said it was allowed under Dail rules.



https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/justice-minister-calls-for-full-investigation-into-illegal-act-of-tds-voting-for-absent-colleagues-958704.html

Justice Minister Charlie Flanagan has insisted a full investigation into the "illegal act" of TDs voting for colleagues while they are physically absent is needed

Mr Flanagan confirmed he has voted on behalf of some colleagues in this second circumstance as well, but said this is allowed for under Dail rules if someone is physically in the chamber when it is locked for votes.

I don't know which Dail rule though, I've asked him.

charlie14

expectationlost wrote: »

he didn't saw what he did was illegal he said it was allowed under Dail rules.



https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/justice-minister-calls-for-full-investigation-into-illegal-act-of-tds-voting-for-absent-colleagues-958704.html I don't know which Dail rule though, I've asked him.

He is around long enough to know better.


He is Minister for Justice and Equality and as such the very least you would expect is he would consult the Constitution before opening his gob.

If that was too big a read for him a quick check of Dáil Standing Orders would show him how wrong he was.


Very poor form from a Minister for Justice and Equality to ignore both in favour of " look over there at them ones" political opportunism.