The strange affair of Dimmy Tooley

salmocab

Itssoeasy wrote: »

So from having heard from several politicians over today and yesterday on the radio it appears that it's not uncommon for TDs and senators while in their respective chambers but not at their seat to ask a colleague next to their seat to press the vote button for them but the point they stress is that they are in the chamber and fully aware of what is being done.The difference here with deputies Dooley and Collins and chambers is that there were votes cast by them or for them which did not accurately reflect the reality of the people present in the chamber.

Even if it’s true that the other person is in the chamber if they don’t bother their holes going to their seat then they shouldn’t get a vote. If your too busy to be at the debate in the first place then you don’t hear the debate properly so shouldn’t cast a vote without all the facts.

marieholmfan

Boggles wrote: »

Do you honestly believe no TD has ever done the exact same thing as those 3?

It's absolute rife and if we have learned anything, pretty much common practice.

It's not that big a deal in all honesty, unsavory yes, but with the whip system hardly major fraud.

It is a big deal.
It is providing a false record in the Dail.


The TDs should be hanged for treason.

Allinall

Boggles wrote: »

Do you honestly believe no TD has ever done the exact same thing as those 3?

It's absolute rife and if we have learned anything, pretty much common practice.

It's not that big a deal in all honesty, unsavory yes, but with the whip system hardly major fraud.

Agree with this.

It's not unlike the "pairing" system which has been going on for years.

If all committees / meetings/ phone calls tec. has to be interrupted every time there was a vote in the chamber, productivity would plummet.

salmocab

Allinall wrote: »

Agree with this.

It's not unlike the "pairing" system which has been going on for years.

If all committees / meetings/ phone calls tec. has to be interrupted every time there was a vote in the chamber, productivity would plummet.

I think the point is that the committees etc don’t have to be interrupted the TD just shouldn’t get a vote if they aren’t there

facehugger99

Ger Roe wrote: »

How would the system know which particular elected arse it was?

Some form of arse-scanner or possibly by just weighing them.

blanch152

Itssoeasy wrote: »

So from having heard from several politicians over today and yesterday on the radio it appears that it's not uncommon for TDs and senators while in their respective chambers but not at their seat to ask a colleague next to their seat to press the vote button for them but the point they stress is that they are in the chamber and fully aware of what is being done.The difference here with deputies Dooley and Collins and chambers is that there were votes cast by them or for them which did not accurately reflect the reality of the people present in the chamber.

That is an important distinction.

I can understand where someone is chatting to another TD and calls over to one of their colleagues and says vote for me please. Unfortunately, that culture has led to the sloppiness seen for Dooley and Collins.

Can't say I am surprised by their behaviour though.

Ger Roe

Boggles wrote: »

Do you honestly believe no TD has ever done the exact same thing as those 3?

It's absolute rife and if we have learned anything, pretty much common practice.

It's not that big a deal in all honesty, unsavory yes, but with the whip system hardly major fraud.

No, I believe that is a known and widespread abuse of the democratic process that has been conveniently ignored by people that we entrust to uphold that process.

If it was known that such abuse of process takes place, why was nothing done about it before now?. Is it a convenience afforded to dail members that the public are not made aware of? I expect my elected representatives to be present and responsible for their own actions whenever votes are undertaken.

I have been in Leinster house in a minister's office when a vote was called and the racket from the internal house bells announcing that the vote is being taken, is loud and intrusive, so much so that it can't be silenced and you have to shout over it, if in conversation outside the chamber.

It is designed to ensure that members are present and participating when the vote is undertaken... unfortunately there now seems to be a fundamental and convenient flaw in the system that allows for fraudulent votes to be made while within the chamber.

I have been amazed looking at the shenanagins in the British parliament over the past few months, but it seems we are not much better when it comes to bending, stretching and re-interpreting the rules for the convenience and self interest of the party political system.

sligojoek

facehugger99 wrote: »

Some form of arse-scanner or possibly by just weighing them.

"Unexpected item in the bagging area"

Boggles

Ger Roe wrote: »

No, I believe that is a known and widespread abuse of the democratic process that has been conveniently ignored by people that we entrust to uphold that process.

If it was known that such abuse of process takes place, why was nothing done about it before now?. Is it a convenience afforded to dail members that the public are not made aware of? I expect my elected representatives to be present and responsible for their own actions whenever votes are undertaken.

I have been in Leinster house in a minister's office when a vote was called and the racket from the internal house bells announcing that the vote is being taken, is loud and intrusive, so much so that it can't be silenced and you have to shout over it, if in conversation outside the chamber.

It is designed to ensure that members are present and participating when the vote is undertaken... unfortunately there now seems to be a fundamental and convenient flaw in the system that allows for fraudulent votes to be made while within the chamber.

I have been amazed looking at the shenanagins in the British parliament over the past few months, but it seems we are not much better when it comes to bending, stretching and re-interpreting the rules for the convenience and self interest of the party political system.

Yeah.

But of all things I'm going to get outraged over this would be low on the list TBH.

"Push my button Noel, I'm going for a píss"

Meh.

Snow Garden

"Somebody might be racing down the stairs with three seconds to go and they might say 'press my button, here I am' or whatever and I may have done it from time to time," said Minister Flanagan.

Ah lovely. FF+FG are red rotten.

Ger Roe

Boggles wrote: »

Yeah.

But of all things I'm going to get outraged over this would be low on the list TBH.

"Push my button Noel, I'm going for a píss"

Meh.

Yeah... sure let's extend the same privilege to ourselves at general election time... 'stick an x on the page for me Noel'. They wouldn't trust us to do that because it would directly affect their chances of being elected.

Once they do get elected though, they can play the 'rules' whatever way they like. I don't subscribe to the two tier vote system - one man one vote be it an x on a page or a button push. We are expected to do our duty and vote in our own identified right, I expect them to do the same.

tjhook

To be fair to the poor ould TDs, it's not easy to understand all these rules and regulations. Probably nobody ever told them that they can only vote once.

I would propose that a compulsory course be laid on in Kildare House for a week every August before the end of the summer recess, to bring them all through how things work.

Itssoeasy

tjhook wrote: »

To be fair to the poor ould TDs, it's not easy to understand all these rules and regulations. Probably nobody ever told them that they can only vote once.

I would propose that a compulsory course be laid on in Kildare House for a week every August before the end of the summer recess, to bring them all through how things work.

It's pressing a button in seat though. It's not peace in our time.

tjhook

Itssoeasy wrote: »

It's pressing a button in seat though. It's not peace in our time.

It's a pity they need training in something that should be very simple.

lola85

Is it not effectively rigging a vote?

Pretending someone voted for something when they didn’t.

Boggles

Ger Roe wrote: »

Yeah... sure let's extend the same privilege to ourselves at general election time... 'stick an x on the page for me Noel'. They wouldn't trust us to do that because it would directly affect their chances of being elected.

Not if we were all whipped into voting for X.

osarusan

marieholmfan wrote: »

The TDs should be hanged for treason.

In the search for the message board unhinged over-reaction of the year, we have a strong late contender here.

bladespin

osarusan wrote: »

In the search for the message board unhinged over-reaction of the year, we have a strong late contender here.

Maybe but it would bring about the 'ethical' reforms we've been promised since dot.

On a more realistic note, I'm sure they'll get away with it all etc but surely this is a very serious crime?

Or can I offer to drop down to the ballot box and vote for all my neighbors???

osarusan

bladespin wrote: »

Maybe but it would bring about the 'ethical' reforms we've been promised since dot.

On a more realistic note, I'm sure they'll get away with it all etc but surely

Don't get me wrong, it's a very serious issue, and I'm going to guess it'll turn out to be widespread.

On the one hand, with people's voting preferences being known anyway, the results aren't really going to be too different from what they would have been, but there's also the principle of it, and them just coming across as a bunch of lazy bastards.

Even in that video of Dooley leaving the chamber, the place is deserted anyway, so people that weren't even there for the vote are a bit hamstrung in what they can say.

It already reminds me somewhat of the UK's expenses affair, with people a bit reluctant to openly criticise or take strong positions because they didn't know just how badly their own party would be exposed in the storm.

Itssoeasy

The Lisa chambers comment that because the vote wasn't close she didn't think it would matter won't age well.I mean either all votes should count regardless if they are close or not.

Itssoeasy

Apparently Michael Martin has excepted Lisa chamber's explanation over the issue. Bit harsh on timmy Dooley and Niall Collins. Either it’s all or none.

touts

FF TDs pulling strokes and not fully adhering to the rules. Old news and outside the Dublin intelligentsia no one gives a sh1t. This is just a classic FG Public relations smokescreen to stop people asking why Leo blinked on the backstop as soon as he was left on a room on his own with Boris.

BarryD2

NIMAN wrote: »

This admitting only when you're caught isn't on. Nothing would have been said if they had got away with it.

They sound like my kids when they have been caught out, making up daft stories. They are adults ffs. Admit you were caught and take the punishment.

It's a joke. I wouldn't be happy until I see heads roll. Deliberate fraud.

I could understand TD Chambers making the mistake but she should have owned it completely. The public would understand that. Instead she tried to pass it off as some mistake that's easy to make and of little consequence in this instance. When you combine that with her flat rebuttal yesterday, it just wasn't acceptable for a senior politician. How many times has she made this mistake before if it's that easy to do? Arrogance comes to mind.

For the voting system in the Dail to be that sloppy is quite unacceptable.

Allinall

touts wrote: »

FF TDs pulling strokes and not fully adhering to the rules. Old news and outside the Dublin intelligentsia no one gives a sh1t. This is just a classic FG Public relations smokescreen to stop people asking why Leo blinked on the backstop as soon as he was left on a room on his own with Boris.

What's it got to do with FG?

glenfieldman

Allinall wrote: »

What's it got to do with FG?

Two cheeks of the same arse
But the tow major party's are not on their own
Sinn Fein, printer ink
Independents, employing family members
the whole house should be binned

Name one member of the Dail that done some good for the working class

McMurphy

Allinall wrote: »

What's it got to do with FG?

Ask the justice minister.

More to come most likely, from all party's.

James Brown

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Apparently Michael Martin has excepted Lisa chamber's explanation over the issue. Bit harsh on timmy Dooley and Niall Collins. Either it’s all or none.

Thing is, she wasn't holding her hand up either and we've only her word that she would have raised her error if the vote was closer.
Not forgetting, she's Fianna Fail, so pinch of salt.

reg114

Folks id say this business of voting for other people in their absence happens on all sides of the house every single day. FG FF, Sinn Fein labour the indos the greens are all at it id bet, its an unspoken agreement between dail members, yes its dishonest and yes its undemocratic .. but then again what is democratic about the current confidence and supply agreement between FF and FG ? nothing.

If as a voter you arent happy that politicians are taking the Pi$$ then do something about it. The body politic relies on keyboard warriors being apathetic when it comes to making legitimate demonstrable protests. The whole reason this country is in the Sh$t its currently in is because of of the irish 'Im alright jack' mentality, the majority of irish people are doing ok in the current economic climate so they do little more than shrug about the issues of teh day.

Remember we are 200 billion euro in debt yet the gov are fighting the EU because they dont want to accept 13 billion euros awarded to us over the Apple case. Meanwhile hundreds of millions of euros of fines are having to be paid by irish tax payers because of our failure to abide by emissions targets and yet voters bang on about carbon taxes ??? folks you are already paying carbon taxes!!

Ask yourself when was the last time you actually marched about an issue ? When did you actually take to the streets about anything. You can fill the pages of boards.ie with your diatribe but when did you last fill the streets? Meaningful change will only come when enough people show their displeasure at the status quo. And before you ask I was ant the extinction rebellion march the weekend before last, the turnout was pitiful but at least we were there.

Colonel Claptrap

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Thing is, she wasn't holding her hand up either and we've only her word that she would have raised her error if the vote was closer.
Not forgetting, she's Fianna Fail, so pinch of salt.

She was asked and outright lied on national radio, then the following day came clean and said she once accidentally voted for a colleague.

https://www.rte.ie/radio/radioplayer/html5/#/radio1/21639610

Listen to the first 8 seconds.

What changed between the radio interview and her apologetic statement today?

She was found out.

corks finest

Great heading