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The strange affair of Dimmy Tooley

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    #182
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,971 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    reg114 wrote: »
    Folks id say this business of voting for other people in their absence happens on all sides of the house every single day. FG FF, Sinn Fein labour the indos the greens are all at it id bet, its an unspoken agreement between dail members, yes its dishonest and yes its undemocratic .. but then again what is democratic about the current confidence and supply agreement between FF and FG ? nothing.

    If as a voter you arent happy that politicians are taking the Pi$$ then do something about it. The body politic relies on keyboard warriors being apathetic when it comes to making legitimate demonstrable protests. The whole reason this country is in the Sh$t its currently in is because of of the irish 'Im alright jack' mentality, the majority of irish people are doing ok in the current economic climate so they do little more than shrug about the issues of teh day.

    Remember we are 200 billion euro in debt yet the gov are fighting the EU because they dont want to accept 13 billion euros awarded to us over the Apple case. Meanwhile hundreds of millions of euros of fines are having to be paid by irish tax payers because of our failure to abide by emissions targets and yet voters bang on about carbon taxes ??? folks you are already paying carbon taxes!!

    Ask yourself when was the last time you actually marched about an issue ? When did you actually take to the streets about anything. You can fill the pages of boards.ie with your diatribe but when did you last fill the streets? Meaningful change will only come when enough people show their displeasure at the status quo. And before you ask I was ant the extinction rebellion march the weekend before last, the turnout was pitiful but at least we were there.

    Eh, the current confidence and supply agreement was democratically agreed by the representatives we democratically elected to democratically represent us in the Dail in our representative democracy.

    What is undemocratic about that?


    What is democratic about a small mob gathering in the streets to demonstrate, shout and cause inconvenience?


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    #183
    bladespin
    Registered Users Posts: 7,358 ✭✭✭bladespin


    reg114 wrote: »
    Ask yourself when was the last time you actually marched about an issue ? When did you actually take to the streets about anything. You can fill the pages of boards.ie with your diatribe but when did you last fill the streets? Meaningful change will only come when enough people show their displeasure at the status quo. And before you ask I was ant the extinction rebellion march the weekend before last, the turnout was pitiful but at least we were there.

    You don't need to march if they've committed a crime, that's the question,it will be very interesting if the gardai want to prosecute (doubtful as it maybe), if no crime has been committed then it's a lot of hot air about nothing very much.


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    #184
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    Charlie Flanagan minister for justice admitted he has done the same.
    Seems the practice is just not confined to FF. Harris's faux outrage was hilarious though. Did the dog eat Charlie's homework too?


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    #185
    padd b1975
    Registered Users Posts: 10,770 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    Colonel Claptrap wrote: »
    I guarantee you this is rife in the Seanad.

    Michael McDowell pretty much admitted that it was on Marion's show yesterday.


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    #186
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,867 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    Charlie Flanagan minister for justice admitted he has done the same.
    Seems the practice is just not confined to FF. Harris's faux outrage was hilarious though. Did the dog eat Charlie's homework too?

    That's funny because, as I said this morning, Flanagan was on NewsTalk this morning talking about how serious it was and saying that legislation could possibly be challenged as a result.

    He did get a bit stuck when questioned... looks like other journos picked up on that and dug deeper.


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    #187
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    That's funny because, as I said this morning, Flanagan was on NewsTalk this morning talking about how serious it was and saying that legislation could possibly be challenged as a result.

    He did get a bit stuck when questioned... looks like other journos picked up on that and dug deeper.
    Hypocrisy is all it is. As said by another commentator it's not just confined to FF. None of them should be at.


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    #188
    EmmetSpiceland
    Registered Users Posts: 10,781 ✭✭✭✭EmmetSpiceland


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    That's funny because, as I said this morning, Flanagan was on NewsTalk this morning talking about how serious it was and saying that legislation could possibly be challenged as a result.

    He did get a bit stuck when questioned... looks like other journos picked up on that and dug deeper.

    Did he not say it was common enough to get someone to push the button for you while you were present but talking to someone away from your seat?

    “It is not blood that makes you Irish but a willingness to be part of the Irish nation” - Thomas Davis



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    #189
    xl500
    Registered Users Posts: 879 ✭✭✭xl500


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    That's funny because, as I said this morning, Flanagan was on NewsTalk this morning talking about how serious it was and saying that legislation could possibly be challenged as a result.

    He did get a bit stuck when questioned... looks like other journos picked up on that and dug deeper.

    BIG difference in pressing a button for someone who is in the chamber and asks you to press their button as against actually voting for someone who is not present


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    #190
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,971 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    EmmetSpiceland wrote: »
    Did he not say it was common enough to get someone to push the button for you while you were present but talking to someone away from your seat?
    xl500 wrote: »
    BIG difference in pressing a button for someone who is in the chamber and asks you to press their button as against actually voting for someone who is not present


    Some don't seem to understand that difference.
    Johnny Dogs wrote: »
    The justice minister.

    Just let that sink in.


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    #191
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    xl500 wrote: »
    BIG difference in pressing a button for someone who is in the chamber and asks you to press their button as against actually voting for someone who is not present
    EmmetSpiceland wrote: »
    Did he not say it was common enough to get someone to push the button for you while you were present but talking to someone away from your seat?

    I suppose we could take a politicians word on it.......the claim he's in the toilet or bar or....the Dunnes in Laois ;)

    How about you vote yourself and if you're not there you don't vote? Are we going to bring in 'except within x meters, then a pal can'?
    This go for the public in elections too?


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    #192
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    So we take Charlie's word for it? As we know politicians are never economical with the truth.


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    #193
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,639 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    xl500 wrote: »
    BIG difference in pressing a button for someone who is in the chamber and asks you to press their button as against actually voting for someone who is not present


    I don't think there is any doubt that Dooley was just outside the door or wherever, he had been there just a few moments earlier.

    If everything had happened as it did, except Dooley was up in the back benches somewhere, chatting with somebody, would it really be any different?

    I know in one scenario he is inside the chamber and in another he is outside, but I don't see a fundamental difference myself.


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    #194
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,492 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Eh, the current confidence and supply agreement was democratically agreed by the representatives we democratically elected to democratically represent us in the Dail in our representative democracy.


    But we can't be sure now if Varadkar got the Dail votes properly/legitimately! ;)


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    #195
    lola85
    Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭lola85


    Seems to be a lot of FF supporters here trying to deflect away from the issue and make other parties look bad. They just don’t realise they are both the same. Seems people are still afraid to admit they support FF.


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    #196
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    lola85 wrote: »
    Seems to be a lot of FF supporters here trying to deflect away from the issue and make other parties look bad. They just don’t realise they are both the same. Seems people are still afraid to admit they support FF.

    Not a supporter of any party, but Flanagan has admitted to doing it he's FG. McDowell claims it goes on all the time in the Seannad. I believe he is independent.


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    #197
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    lola85 wrote: »
    Seems to be a lot of FF supporters here trying to deflect away from the issue and make other parties look bad. They just don’t realise they are both the same. Seems people are still afraid to admit they support FF.

    I think it's common knowledge FF and FG are interchangeable at this point.


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    #198
    Itssoeasy
    Registered Users Posts: 40,032 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    Not a supporter of any party, but Flanagan has admitted to doing it he's FG. McDowell claims it goes on all the time in the Seannad. I believe he is independent.

    McDowell said the being in the chamber but not in their seat and asking a colleague to press the botton happens. As did Richard Bruton and the Taoiseach over the weekend. Now, I'm not up on the rules around electronic voting and voting in general but I'd assume it's covered under one of the standing orders of the oireachtas. Maybe it wouldn't be the worse thing if from now on that "practice" was stopped.

    I didn't hear the Charlie Flanagan comments so don't know exactly what he said, and I dont care which party would have done it but FF are the ones in the spotlight because there is no excuse that the other TD was in the chamber when the video evidence is clear that Timmy Dooley didn't return to the chamber and yet is recorded as voting six times.

    I wouldn't be surprised if the old voting lobbies are used for a week or so going forward if nothing else to be clear that the issue can't happen the manual way.


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    #199
    myshirt
    Registered Users Posts: 5,245 ✭✭✭myshirt


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    I think it's common knowledge FF and FG are interchangeable at this point.

    Two cheeks of the same arse, as one poster put it.


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    #200
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    Itssoeasy wrote: »
    McDowell said the being in the chamber but not in their seat and asking a colleague to press the botton happens. As did Richard Bruton and the Taoiseach over the weekend. Now, I'm not up on the rules around electronic voting and voting in general but I'd assume it's covered under one of the standing orders of the oireachtas. Maybe it wouldn't be the worse thing if from now on that "practice" was stopped.

    I didn't hear the Charlie Flanagan comments so don't know exactly what he said, and I dont care which party would have done it but FF are the ones in the spotlight because there is no excuse that the other TD was in the chamber when the video evidence is clear that Timmy Dooley didn't return to the chamber and yet is recorded as voting six times.

    I wouldn't be surprised if the old voting lobbies are used for a week or so going forward if nothing else to be clear that the issue can't happen the manual way.

    They get paid enough, surely they can find their own seat and vote instead of landing a colleague with the responsibility of voting the 'right' way.
    I highly doubt it is in standing orders. It seems a ridiculous situation to be allowed happen.


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    #201
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,363 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    If someone is talking to someone somewhere whether it’s in the corner or in their office down the corridor it shouldn’t matter as they weren’t paying attention to the debate so shouldn’t be voting on it. I know they follow the whip but we shouldn’t have a system that takes into account the party system it should be one vote each if your present.


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    #202
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    This is wide open for abuse. Whether you believe you lads or not it's poor practice.


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    #203
    Itssoeasy
    Registered Users Posts: 40,032 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    I know there is a slight difference between the Lisa chambers and Timmy Dooley and Niall Collins incidents but I don't understand how Michael Martin has not asked Lisa chambers to step down like he did the two lads.


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    #204
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users Posts: 18,831 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    Itssoeasy wrote: »
    I know there is a slight difference between the Lisa chambers and Timmy Dooley and Niall Collins incidents but I don't understand how Michael Martin has not asked Lisa chambers to step down like he did the two lads.

    I think it is because there is a rule that once you are in the dail chamber the house rule is that you can get someone else to cast your vote for you.
    Lisa chambers was in the dail chamber when casting her vote. but the other two lads were completely breaking the etiquette of it.

    All I can think of is this song - @2:44


    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



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    #205
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,971 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Sir Oxman wrote: »
    But we can't be sure now if Varadkar got the Dail votes properly/legitimately! ;)

    Now, that is a stretch.

    You can be sure that vote was watched closely by everyone involved.

    Now you may not have meant to float a conspiracy theory, but there are a few around here who will jump on that.


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    #206
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,971 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    salmocab wrote: »
    If someone is talking to someone somewhere whether it’s in the corner or in their office down the corridor it shouldn’t matter as they weren’t paying attention to the debate so shouldn’t be voting on it. I know they follow the whip but we shouldn’t have a system that takes into account the party system it should be one vote each if your present.


    You are looking to overturn a century of behaviour in the Dail.


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    #207
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    gormdubhgorm wrote: »
    I think it is because there is a rule that once you are in the dail chamber the house rule is that you can get someone else to cast your vote for you.
    Lisa chambers was in the dail chamber when casting her vote. but the other two lads were completely breaking the etiquette of it.

    All I can think of is this song - @2:44



    Basically Chambers voted using a colleagues button, then voted using her own and said nothing. The rest is her word. As bad as the other two and Flanagan etc. are no better IMO.


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    #208
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,971 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    Not a supporter of any party, but Flanagan has admitted to doing it he's FG. McDowell claims it goes on all the time in the Seannad. I believe he is independent.

    Flanagan didn't admit to what Collins and Dooley did.

    Not surprised at you spinning that though.


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    #209
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,971 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    I suppose we could take a politicians word on it.......the claim he's in the toilet or bar or....the Dunnes in Laois ;)

    How about you vote yourself and if you're not there you don't vote? Are we going to bring in 'except within x meters, then a pal can'?
    This go for the public in elections too?
    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    So we take Charlie's word for it? As we know politicians are never economical with the truth.

    You could take their word for it, or you could just examine the video evidence.


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    #210
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,363 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    blanch152 wrote: »
    You are looking to overturn a century of behaviour in the Dail.

    It’s never too late to do the right thing


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    #211
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Flanagan didn't admit to what Collins and Dooley did.

    Not surprised at you spinning that though.

    #Ibelievehim
    blanch152 wrote: »
    You could take their word for it, or you could just examine the video evidence.

    Thanks to the lads on both sides of the isle we might have to check the CCTV to see who actually voted on what and when.
    Put aside the players, it's bad practice.


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