The Joe Schmidt era.

tritriagain

The most worrying thing for me is that the new coach has had 2 disastrous World cups as a defensive coach.

AudreyHepburn

The fickleness and bitterness of some so called supporters is really shocking and honestly quite disappointing.

Joe Schmidt’s tenure has seen us win three Six Nations, one of them a Grand Slam, best the All Blacks twice and advance to Number 1 in the world. We had a poor tournament yes but we cannot and should not allow it to overshadow and negate what Schmidt has done for Irish Rugby.

Irish people love to be pessimistic, we all know that but a bit of logical thinking and perspective is needed here.

Danthemanhere

JJJackal wrote: »

Your definition of failure is two quarter finals.

The first we lost mainly through injury

The second we lost to the best team in the world (granted we also lost to Japan leading us to play the best team in the world)

World Cups were not a success agreed

When there are so few teams at the top level, quarter finals are the minimum to expect. We got beaten by Argentina by 23 points. Destroyed. Japan was up there with our wrost ever defeats and New Zealand was our record defeat at a world cup. Going by any metric, he failed at world cups.

JJJackal

snotboogie wrote: »

Ridiculous! The World Cup is the biggest stage, Schmidt had two pops at it and fell well short on both occasions. Yes, he was very good in a historically weak 6 nations with a historically strong Irish team but when the chips were down he bottled it against Argentina and Japan and never even put up a fight against New Zealand. He was a good bean counter, very conscientious, but he lacked the flair of a guy like Warren Gatland to get it done when it really mattered.

He didnt fall well short. Semi-final would have been success. He got to 2 quarter finals. We were within a point of Argentina with 20 minutes to go...

Historically weak 6N - Ireland beat England who were lining up a record number of wins - 18 or so? Wales you say are strong under a flair guy?

France happen to be weak. Wales and England, as this world cup will show, are strong. Scotland and Italy are at the same level they have been at for some time

Danthemanhere

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

The fickleness and bitterness of some so called supporters is really shocking and honestly quite disappointing.

Joe Schmidt’s tenure has seen us win three Six Nations, one of them a Grand Slam, best the All Blacks twice and advance to Number 1 in the world. We had a poor tournament yes but we cannot and should not allow it to overshadow and negate what Schmidt has done for Irish Rugby.

Irish people love to be pessimistic, we all know that but a bit of logical thinking and perspective is needed here.

I think we need to reflect on his tenure honestly. He did great stuff, the grand slam was amazing but last year looks less good in retrospect. Other countries were building for the world cup, we were not which has become clear.

JJJackal

Danthemanhere wrote: »

When there are so few teams at the top level, quarter finals are the minimum to expect. We got beaten by Argentina by 23 points. Destroyed. Japan was up there with our wrost ever defeats and New Zealand was our record defeat at a world cup. Going by any metric, he failed at world cups.

The manner of our defeat to NZ can only be judged at the end of the tournament. If they run over England plus whoever they face in the final....

Argentina was close (you say 23 points but it was closer with 20 minutes to go; you may as well loose by 20 as 1)

Danthemanhere

JJJackal wrote: »

The manner of our defeat to NZ can only be judged at the end of the tournament. If they run over England plus whoever they face in the final....

Argentina was close (you say 23 points but it was closer with 20 minutes to go; you may as well loose by 20 as 1)

No! Why can't you judge our performance now? We were a rabble, nothing else that happens will change that. We lost by 23 to Argentina. These are facts, they can't be debated. Schmidt's world cup record is awful, no hiding from it.

AudreyHepburn

Danthemanhere wrote: »

I think we need to reflect on his tenure honestly. He did great stuff, the grand slam was amazing but last year looks less good in retrospect. Other countries were building for the world cup, we were not which has become clear.

Of course we do but pretending that all Schmidt achieved doesn’t matter because of one bad season is at best naive.

He’s not perfect but no coach is, not even Steve Hansen.

Clegg

Naked agenda posting under the guise of 'valid criticism.'

You love to see it.

Danthemanhere

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Of course we do but pretending that all Schmidt achieved doesn’t matter because of one bad season is at best naive.

He’s not perfect but no coach is, not even Steve Hansen.

Who said that? His achievements have been acknowledged, on the flip side, his world cup failures can't be ignored.

Shefwedfan

Danthemanhere wrote: »

Who said that? His achievements have been acknowledged, on the flip side, his world cup failures can't be ignored.

Do you have to drag every thread down with the same rubbish...


Ok you dont like Joe, we get that.



Move on

snotboogie

JJJackal wrote: »

He didnt fall well short. Semi-final would have been success. He got to 2 quarter finals. We were within a point of Argentina with 20 minutes to go...

Historically weak 6N - Ireland beat England who were lining up a record number of wins - 18 or so? Wales you say are strong under a flair guy?

France happen to be weak. Wales and England, as this world cup will show, are strong. Scotland and Italy are at the same level they have been at for some time

He played 6 competitive World Cup games, Ireland were favorites in 5 of the 6 games, yet he only won 3; Italy, Scotland and France. Ireland were turned over by Japan when we were 1/14 on and by Argentina who were a very limited side that got spanked themselves in the semi final, people only talk about injuries before that game but forget we were still favorites to win yet we shipped 40+ points in a 20+ point loss. New Zealand are far better than us but we still performed well below par. Joe has had a decent sample size of games at the real top level and has come up well short.

AudreyHepburn

Danthemanhere wrote: »

Who said that? His achievements have been acknowledged, on the flip side, his world cup failures can't be ignored.

All those saying he’ll be remembered only for his World Cup campaigns for a start.

I’ve never said we should ignore anything, only that we shouldn’t allow those failures to define the best manager we’ve ever had.

We can’t turn against him because he didn’t achieve something that none of our previous managers have. That’s just unreasonable.

Danthemanhere

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Do you have to drag every thread down with the same rubbish...


Ok you dont like Joe, we get that.



Move on

I do like Joe. This thread is about the Joe Schmidt era. If you don't want to reflect on it, then move on yourself.

sydthebeat

Seeing as every other Irish coached "failed" at a world cup... Then the standards that Schmidt will be considered against are level all round.

So taking that great leveller out for everyone, Schmidt was, by far, our most successful coach in his era when every other metric is applied. Six nations, win percentages, consistent World ranking positions, historic wins against southern hemisphere teams where every other coach came up short.....

Anyone who calls his era a failure is either deliberately trolling just to be contraversal, or they don't know much about Irish rugby history.

awec

His tenure has some great moments and some terrible moments, but the great ones outnumber the terrible ones significantly.

Overall he'll be seen as a very successful coach, definitely the most successful to date, and hopefully he'll be looked back on as the person who kick-started a change in Irish Rugby in general, but at the same time there will be some disappointments and failures during his tenure that will be hard to overlook.

Danthemanhere

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

All those saying he’ll be remembered only for his World Cup campaigns for a start.

I’ve never said we should ignore anything, only that we shouldn’t allow those failures to define the best manager we’ve ever had.

Well, in fairness, managers are usually remembered by their final campaigns. This wasn't a good one. His reputation has been seriously damaged this year.

JJJackal

Danthemanhere wrote: »

No! Why can't you judge our performance now? We were a rabble, nothing else that happens will change that. We lost by 23 to Argentina. These are facts, they can't be debated. Schmidt's world cup record is awful, no hiding from it.

If NZ steam roll Engalnd and Another... the defeat wont be as bad

You keep referencing 23. A loss is a loss. The available players gave it a good go on that day and could have overturned it

Danthemanhere

sydthebeat wrote: »

Seeing as every other Irish coached "failed" at a world cup... Then the standards that Schmidt will be considered against are level all round.

So taking that great leveller out for everyone, Schmidt was, by far, our most successful coach in his era when every other metric is applied. Six nations, win percentages, consistent World ranking positions, historic wins against southern hemisphere teams where every other coach came up short.....

Anyone who calls his era a failure is either deliberately trolling just to be contraversal, or they don't know much about Irish rugby history.

He was our greatest ever manager who failed at world cups. Just because other coaches have failed at world cups doesn't take away from that.

AudreyHepburn

Danthemanhere wrote: »

Well, in fairness, managers are usually remembered by their final campaigns. This wasn't a good one. His reputation has been seriously damaged this year.

In your eyes maybe. Those of us capable of more reasonable and fair thinking will remember him for more than just one campaign.

Shefwedfan

Danthemanhere wrote: »

Well, in fairness, managers are usually remembered by their final campaigns. This wasn't a good one. His reputation has been seriously damaged this year.

No it hasn't.....if Joe turned around tomorrow and said be was available to work, every club and country in the World would be after him

Danthemanhere

JJJackal wrote: »

If NZ steam roll Engalnd and Another... the defeat wont be as bad

You keep referencing 23. A loss is a loss. The available players gave it a good go on that day and could have overturned it

Getting destroyed in games is not good, record defeats are not good, there's no fudging this.

Danthemanhere

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

In your eyes maybe. Those of us capable of more reasonable and fair thinking will remember him for more than just one campaign.

I remember him for the great work he did. All I'm saying is that his world cup record is awful. I don't know how anyone can deny this.

Danthemanhere

Shefwedfan wrote: »

No it hasn't.....if Joe turned around tomorrow and said be was available to work, every club and country in the World would be after him

That has nothing to do with the disastrous year we've had under his leadership.

Shefwedfan

Danthemanhere wrote: »

I remember him for the great work he did. All I'm saying is that his world cup record is awful. I don't know how anyone can deny this.

His WC record is not awful. He got to 2 qtr's.....if he got knocked out in group stage then yes awful

AudreyHepburn

Danthemanhere wrote: »

I remember him for the great work he did. All I'm saying is that his world cup record is awful. I don't know how anyone can deny this.

Once again who exactly is denying this?

We’re just saying you cannot allow it to color your entire view of the man. The things he’s achieved cannot be denied or ignored as you seem determined to do.

Shefwedfan

Danthemanhere wrote: »

That has nothing to do with the disastrous year we've had under his leadership.

As I said, another thread ruined ....you already discussed all this on the Ireland thread and the game thread. Both threads you just blindly slag off Joe and his achievements so why ruin this thread with the same rubbish?

ricero

A missed opportunity is how I look back at his era

awec

Shefwedfan wrote: »

His WC record is not awful. He got to 2 qtr's.....if he got knocked out in group stage then yes awful

His WC record is fairly poor, in fairness. It's the one competition he never really got to grips with. Getting out of a pool in a RWC is not really worth shouting about.

Danthemanhere

Shefwedfan wrote: »

His WC record is not awful. He got to 2 qtr's.....if he got knocked out in group stage then yes awful

2015 we had France and Italy, this year we had Japan and Scotland. Reaching the quarter finals is the absolute minimum! Losing to Japan is up there with our worst world cup defeat and then the two quarter final loses were by a record margin and by 23 points. The facts are there.

Danthemanhere

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Once again who exactly is denying this?

We’re just saying you cannot allow it to color your entire view of the man. The things he’s achieved cannot be denied or ignored as you seem determined to do.

Right above this post you just made even:

Shefwedfan wrote: »

His WC record is not awful. He got to 2 qtr's.....if he got knocked out in group stage then yes awful

Danthemanhere

Shefwedfan wrote: »

As I said, another thread ruined ....you already discussed all this on the Ireland thread and the game thread. Both threads you just blindly slag off Joe and his achievements so why ruin this thread with the same rubbish?

As I said, this is a thread to reflect on the Joe Schmidt era, if you don't want to, then just leave.

Andreas77

If I was Irish I would prefer three Six Nations to a losing semi, or even third place in a World Cup. Joe Schmidt has been a gift for Ireland. Any team would be delighted to have him.

weldoninhio

JJJackal wrote: »

Realistically we were number 1 in the world. The hard work to facilitate this was done in 2018. Prior to the world cup in 2019, we had only lost to England and Wales (beating wales twice and losing once). We were unbeaten for many many months before the England loss.

Based on how rankings are calculated we were clearly number 1.

Record as number one team in the world.

1. Biggest ever defeat to England.
2. First loss to Japan.
3. Record defeat in a WC game.

He was successful at the start. Was downhill for the past year.

tritriagain

Andreas77 wrote: »

If I was Irish I would prefer three Six Nations to a losing semi, or even third place in a World Cup. Joe Schmidt has been a gift for Ireland. Any team would be delighted to have him.

I agree Joe has had great success for Ireland but don't necessarily agree any team would want him. His tactics at times have to be questioned. We certainly never had a plan to chase a game from behind. Personally think garland is a far better coach.

sydthebeat

Danthemanhere wrote: »

He was our greatest ever manager who failed at world cups. Just because other coaches have failed at world cups doesn't take away from that.

No it doesn't, it just doesn't put him ahead of anyone else when it comes to the RWC

Shefwedfan

awec wrote: »

His WC record is fairly poor, in fairness. It's the one competition he never really got to grips with. Getting out of a pool in a RWC is not really worth shouting about.

Tell EOS that...England and Wales have also failed at group stages....Scotland very recently as well

It is one competition that won’t be his favourite alright

MadYaker

He’s been great for us. He’s definitely left Irish rugby in a better place than when he took over and his legacy will be a positive one. The future of Irish rugby is bright with plenty of young players coming through. However there is no denying that this World Cup performance is a black mark. It wasn’t just the nature of the defeat we looked so one dimensional. I think like many others I believed we had a few more tricks up our sleeve that would be revealed in the quarters and when that wasn’t the case it was a bit bewildering. Also some of his decisions around selection seemed off, sticking with veteran players who are past it etc. Overall probably an 8 out of 10

Shefwedfan

weldoninhio wrote: »

Record as number one team in the world.

1. Biggest ever defeat to England.
2. First loss to Japan.
3. Record defeat in a WC game.

He was successful at the start. Was downhill for the past year.

Is the start the previous 5 years?

Shefwedfan

tritriagain wrote: »

I agree Joe has had great success for Ireland but don't necessarily agree any team would want him. His tactics at times have to be questioned. We certainly never had a plan to chase a game from behind. Personally think garland is a far better coach.

Gatland has been around wales for 12 years and welsh rugby is a disaster, they are failing to promote young players from u20 to senior....the clubs don’t know what is going on.....

Joe has changed Irish rugby from roots up, with Nucifora of course but huge changes and put Irish rugby in a really bright future...something Gatland hasn’t done with Wales and certainly would never have done with ireland

Danthemanhere

sydthebeat wrote: »

No it doesn't, it just doesn't put him ahead of anyone else when it comes to the RWC

Record defeats and defeats to Japan and Argentina?

awec

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Tell EOS that...England and Wales have also failed at group stages....Scotland very recently as well

It is one competition that won’t be his favourite alright

England had wales and Australia in their pool. Scotland are rubbish and had Ireland and the home nation.

JJJackal

awec wrote: »

England had wales and Australia in their pool. Scotland are rubbish and had Ireland and the home nation.

Japan are currently showing that they are no pushovers and should be a man up

Idbatterim

You really have to question our psyche. Do we need someone more exhuberant and arrogant to an extent, who will instill more belief into the players ? Rather than salt of the earth managers like Schmidt and McCarthy etc ...

KaneToad

Danthemanhere wrote: »

2015 we had France and Italy, this year we had Japan and Scotland. Reaching the quarter finals is the absolute minimum! Losing to Japan is up there with our worst world cup defeat and then the two quarter final loses were by a record margin and by 23 points. The facts are there.

Losing to Japan wasn't calamitous. They're an impressive side. They're giving SA a run for their money at the min.

JJJackal

Idbatterim wrote: »

You really have to question our psyche. Do we need someone more exhuberant and arrogant to an extent, who will instill more belief into the players ? Rather than salt of the earth managers like Schmidt and McCarthy etc ...

We had Roy Keane - that didnt work out

Dravokivich

snotboogie wrote: »

He played 6 competitive World Cup games, Ireland were favorites in 5 of the 6 games, yet he only won 3; Italy, Scotland and France. Ireland were turned over by Japan when we were 1/14 on and by Argentina who were a very limited side that got spanked themselves in the semi final, people only talk about injuries before that game but forget we were still favorites to win yet we shipped 40+ points in a 20+ point loss. New Zealand are far better than us but we still performed well below par. Joe has had a decent sample size of games at the real top level and has come up well short.

Why are you bleating on about the odds a bookie gives? They are doing that to protect financial interest and encourage people to place bets, that are more probable to lose. It doesnt reflect reality.

Danthemanhere

KaneToad wrote: »

Losing to Japan wasn't calamitous. They're an impressive side. They're giving SA a run for their money at the min.

Losing to Japan was calamitous, it should have been us playing this limited south African team!

JJJackal

Danthemanhere wrote: »

Losing to Japan was calamitous, it should have been us playing this limited south African team!

Clearly it wasnt calamitous - as they are a good team, playing at home, having trained together 250 times in last year.

Japan have beaten Ireland, Scotland and are currently putting it up to SA - hard to say losing to such a team is calamitous. They have lost one match in their last 8 at the rugby WC.

Ireland have lost 3 of their last 8 matches...

Idbatterim

In hindsight I don’t think losing to Japan is as bad as initially made out. They are playing at home , had red bias and rightfully or wrongly from a preparation perspective , sprung their first serious performance of the tournament on us ...

It’s like they were the other top team in the group and Scotland were the tier two