The Joe Schmidt era.

Danthemanhere

JJJackal wrote: »

Clearly it wasnt calamitous - as they are a good team, playing at home, having trained together 250 times in last year.

Japan have beaten Ireland, Scotland and are currently putting it up to SA - hard to say losing to such a team is calamitous. They have lost one match in their last 8 at the rugby WC.

Ireland have lost 3 of their last 8 matches...

This is embarrassing. We lost to a team ranked 13th while we were top of the rankings. Talking up Japan shows how bad a world cup we had.

Danthemanhere

Idbatterim wrote: »

In hindsight I don’t think losing to Japan is as bad as initially made out. They are playing at home , had red bias and rightfully or wrongly from a preparation perspective , sprung their first serious performance of the tournament on us ...

It’s like they were the other top team in the group and Scotland were the tier two

It's worse in hindsight. A quarter final against this poor South African team or against New Zealand?

lord quackinton

Schmidt has a very good record and 2018 was a great year
But what got Schmidt in the end was the same issue that got Declan kidney . Loyalty to players when it was quiet obvious those players were not at the required level.
2011 World Cup qf sexton and Redden should have started and it was not even close. Murray and Gara were the wrong call

this years 6 nations showed there was unfortunately real problems with the form of sexton best Kearney Toner Pom
Murray also was not returning from injury to any form close to what he can do.

We peaked last year and I think Schmidt knew this and decided that he would go out with what he knew regardless

Schmidt should have started 19 with a clean slate and picked Solely on form.
The aged and injured I named above should not have played a minute of the 6 nations
That was Schmidt’s biggest mistake and it is unforgivable.

piplip87

It was a successful era six Nations championships are not easily won and it was great to win them.

The major issue with this era IMHO is that Joe had a game plan from day one it worked until the last world cup. It changed slightly in 2018 and it worked very very well but then it got found out during the 6 Nations this year but everybody was so heavily invested in it so there was no plan B.

His era will also be defined on defence first. Gilroy, Zebo and to a degree L'amour where all victims of this. Joe picked players based on defence and loyality even when this would leave us short on finishers.

Take Stockdale for example how many times have we gone wide in this world cup when we have a lethal finisher out there ? Yet people say Stockdale should be dropped for his defensive mistakes but we could cost you a try but score 2 if he gets the ball.

Gilroy scored a hatrick Vs Italy a few years ago and hasn't been seen since due to his defensive game ? All he great try scoring wingers will cost you an odd try but will score more


Henshaw and Ringrose looked like proper attacking centres when coming through but are now very defensive players.

Would Joe's defensive first policy work with the ABS or in Super rugby ? Not a chance.

tritriagain

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Gatland has been around wales for 12 years and welsh rugby is a disaster, they are failing to promote young players from u20 to senior....the clubs don’t know what is going on.....

Joe has changed Irish rugby from roots up, with Nucifora of course but huge changes and put Irish rugby in a really bright future...something Gatland hasn’t done with Wales and certainly would never have done with ireland

Gatlands job is to manage the national side which he has done extremely well. Also a successful lions coach.

MadYaker

Danthemanhere wrote: »

This is embarrassing. We lost to a team ranked 13th while we were top of the rankings. Talking up Japan shows how bad a world cup we had.

Says the guy who earlier claimed the rankings are meaningless. How would you rate joes tenure out of ten?

Danthemanhere

MadYaker wrote: »

Says the guy who earlier claimed the rankings are meaningless. How would you rate joes tenure out of ten?

What? are you just making stuff up?

7/10.

lord quackinton

5/10.
2015 World Cup he lamented our panel strength
And said he would fix that

2019 now fully his panel and same problem as 2015.

If he was not leaving he would have been sacked

Danthemanhere

KaneToad wrote: »

Losing to Japan wasn't calamitous. They're an impressive side. They're giving SA a run for their money at the min.

JJJackal wrote: »

Clearly it wasnt calamitous - as they are a good team, playing at home, having trained together 250 times in last year.

Japan have beaten Ireland, Scotland and are currently putting it up to SA - hard to say losing to such a team is calamitous. They have lost one match in their last 8 at the rugby WC.

Ireland have lost 3 of their last 8 matches...

Idbatterim wrote: »

In hindsight I don’t think losing to Japan is as bad as initially made out. They are playing at home , had red bias and rightfully or wrongly from a preparation perspective , sprung their first serious performance of the tournament on us ...

It’s like they were the other top team in the group and Scotland were the tier two

These posts haven't aged well. :pac:

average hero

7.5/10 for Joe overall. Would have been 9/10 if not for this World Cup.

With his Grand Slam, 6 Nations and efforts with Leinster, he deserves good marks. He has build Irish rugby, always held himself very well and has been a thorough gentleman and success.

I do however have an issue with this World Cup. I think a few selection issues weren't the right call and I think the team didn't take Japan as seriously as they should have. As a team going to try to win the World Cup, we needed to top the group and the Japan game was where we lost the World Cup.

People will say that Japan are a good team and they deserved it. Both of those statements are correct. But either we were going out to win the World Cup and losing to Japan is viewed as a major disappointment or we are comfortable enough to say that we are at Japan's level and meh it wasn't a disappointment I choose the former.

I also never like announcing retirements in advance. I think this affected the players since the announcement too.

Massive congratulations to Joe though. A gentleman, an excellent coach and one of our best. Wish him all the best.

snotboogie

Dravokivich wrote: »

Why are you bleating on about the odds a bookie gives? They are doing that to protect financial interest and encourage people to place bets, that are more probable to lose. It doesnt reflect reality.

If bookies are setting odds that don't reflect reality, you could make a killing exploiting it. Something tells me that you haven't though....

shootermacg

I doubt it's even the tactics let us down. The team players haven't been playing well.
Someone said that the SH teams have a natural advantage playing the WC at the end of their season, because they are battle hardened and have played the patterns in competitive mode.

Eddie Jones, in hindsight, did the right thing playing his first choices as much as possible in the warm-ups.

lord quackinton

The reality is the ban on oversea players has to go
My theory is the ban Hurts Ireland but protects the provinces
I am convinced If it goes you will see the Ireland squad become stronger and achieve greater success
Irish Rugby have to choose. Provinces or country. You can’t have both

Tim Robbins

People like Sinead Kissane, Ewan McMoaner and various blow in fans who turn up every four years who criticise Joe probably couldn't even play J5 Rugby or coach a team at that level.

There's a pile of things that go on in Rugby that people just don't get. Conor Murray and Sexton were the best 9, 10 combination in the world two years ago. On current form over the last 12 months, neither would make Lions match day squad. Is that Joe's fault? No. It's probably because Rugby is so physical now, I think you are lucky if you get 3 - 5 years playing to 100% of your potential. Even Leinster have only being playing Sexton when they absolutely had to the last few years. One can only imagine the demands that have been put on his body.

In the All Blacks, this doesn't matter so much as when one world class players dips to 90% of his form, the next one comes in - with the exception of the likes of McCaw who went such a long time with reasonably low amount of injuries.

In Ireland, unfortunately, when that inevitable dip happens, it does matter - 80% of Conor Murray is better than the next option.

What the IRFU and Joe achieve here considering how few play the sport, is outstanding.

awec

Tim Robbins wrote: »

People like Sinead Kissane, Ewan McMoaner and various blow in fans who turn up every four years who criticise Joe probably couldn't even play J5 Rugby or coach a team at that level.

There's a pile of things that go on in Rugby that people just don't get. Conor Murray and Sexton were the best 9, 10 combination in the world two years ago. On current form over the last 12 months, neither would make Lions match day squad. Is that Joe's fault? No. It's probably because Rugby is so physical now, I think you are lucky if you get 3 - 5 years playing to 100% of your potential. Even Leinster have only being playing Sexton when they absolutely had to the last few years. One can only imagine the demands that have been put on his body.

In the All Blacks, this doesn't matter so much as when one world class players dips to 90% of his form, the next one comes in - with the exception of the likes of McCaw who went such a long time with reasonably low amount of injuries.

In Ireland, unfortunately, when that inevitable dip happens, it does matter - 80% of Conor Murray is better than the next option.

What the IRFU and Joe achieve here considering how few play the sport, is outstanding.

This is excuses really. A lot of people who have previously been praising Schmidt for building depth are now retrospectively saying it's too hard to build real depth and we shouldn't expect it anyway.

The reason the All Blacks are able to swap players in and out is because they give players experience which opens up those options.

80% of Conor Murray is better than the alternatives, because the alternatives are never given a chance. It's the exact same with Sexton. The 2019 6N was a complete joke in these two positions.

JJJackal

awec wrote: »

80% of Conor Murray is better than the alternatives, because the alternatives are never given a chance. It's the exact same with Sexton. The 2019 6N was a complete joke in these two positions.

Marmion lead us to victory over NZ in November series. 100% Marmion >90% Murray and he wasnt even on the plane

Arguably 100% Carty > whatever % Sexton is currently playing at too

Shefwedfan

awec wrote: »

This is excuses really. A lot of people who have previously been praising Schmidt for building depth are now retrospectively saying it's too hard to build real depth and we shouldn't expect it anyway.

The reason the All Blacks are able to swap players in and out is because they give players experience which opens up those options.

80% of Conor Murray is better than the alternatives, because the alternatives are never given a chance. It's the exact same with Sexton. The 2019 6N was a complete joke in these two positions.

We have the best squad we ever had, simple as that. Some of those players just didn’t step up when required,....

If Joe turned around tomorrow and said he wanted to give it another bash for 4 years I wouldn’t turn him down....his record speaks for itself and only an idiot would turn him down

LuckyLloyd

If he wasn’t leaving I think there would be a very compelling case to sack him, which I think says it
all about where his tenure has ended up.

Shefwedfan

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

If he wasn’t leaving I think there would be a very compelling case to sack him, which I think says it
all about where his tenure has ended up.

What’s the compelling case?

Ulysses Gaze

Shefwedfan wrote: »

What’s the compelling case?

A dreadful 6 nations, an absolute hiding by England recently and a desperately disappointing World Cup.

lord quackinton

Excuses excuses excuses

Schmidt comes across very amateurish and he should start looking for roles outside rugby

Professor Genius

Ultimately a failure. Some results yes. Slam and 6 nations championships largely due to very weak French teams and mixed performances from England and Wales.

Both world cups were an effective disaster. 2019 worse than 2015. Way worse. We have gone so far backwards and he now seems out of his depth. He has done nothing to change things as we have trundled on rudderless the last 10 months. NOTHING !

Over coached, system driven and suffocating style of play led to inept team performances. Inability to develop players and insistence to hang to player long past their best was a huge weakness.

A very blinkered man by all accounts who wouldn’t listen to advice. Best still being in the team was nonsensical.

Tim Robbins

awec wrote: »

80% of Conor Murray is better than the alternatives, because the alternatives are never given a chance. It's the exact same with Sexton. The 2019 6N was a complete joke in these two positions.

McGrath and Marmion both given chances.
Joe gave way more players chances than either of the last two coaches - so just don't think that is fair.

I think what he saw was a game plan that could beat anyone based on one out runners, precise rucking and box kicks. He didn't use these tactics at Leinster because it was a different level and different set of players.

LuckyLloyd

Shefwedfan wrote: »

What’s the compelling case?

Eh, a very poor 2019, a seeming inability to change things throughout the year when performances continued to be flat, and bookended by a comprehensive and humiliating exit from the WC. Would be the right time to move on.

Danthemanhere

I have to agree. If Schmidt wasn't going, calls for him to be sacked would be loud after the disastrous year. And they'd be justified. All sorts of excuses are being thrown out but the facts are that we got 2 really bad beatings in the 6 Nations, the world cup warm up against England was embarrassing, the Japan defeat was horrendous and then we got our record world cup defeat to New Zealand who rested themselves in the second half. These defeats came with us playing an archaic style of rugby with no imagination, no attacking threat, we seemed clueless on how to break half decent teams down and some of our selections were baffling.

Clegg

Professor Genius wrote: »

Ultimately a failure. Some results yes. Slam and 6 nations championships largely due to very weak French teams and mixed performances from England and Wales.

Both world cups were an effective disaster. 2019 worse than 2015. Way worse. We have gone so far backwards and he now seems out of his depth. He has done nothing to change things as we have trundled on rudderless the last 10 months. NOTHING !

Over coached, system driven and suffocating style of play led to inept team performances. Inability to develop players and insistence to hang to player long past their best was a huge weakness.

A very blinkered man by all accounts who wouldn’t listen to advice. Best still being in the team was nonsensical.

Your first three words are enough to discount the entirety of your post.

jr86

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

If he wasn’t leaving I think there would be a very compelling case to sack him, which I think says it
all about where his tenure has ended up.

Yeah there was a lot of talk about Eddie Jones potentially getting sacked in 2018, including many on this forum with glee!

Their 2018 was extremely similar to Ireland's 2019. Although they actually beat Wales in 6n and won a game away to SA

Professor Genius

Clegg wrote: »

Your first three words are enough to discount the entirety of your post.

Your attitude enables the acceptability of these World Cup failures. I assume you’ll be at Dublin Airport to clap clap clap your heroes home ?

#teamofus

AbusesToilets

Far too many people are crowing about winning the 6Ns. The only competition that matters at international level is the WC. That's the long and short of it. It's a good buzz when we do manage to win a championship. I've suffered through enough years of ****e in the 90's to recognise that, and have gustily cheered our success; but the WC is the only time every team meets on a (mostly) even plain.

Winning knock out games is all that matters. DO you think the Patriots celebrate winning their division every year? The real season starts in the playoffs, and that's the focus. Do Leinster crow about topping a HC group? They're a means to an end.

Joe has failed to coach a team to play well in the knock outs, twice. Not even saying win, but play well. We haven't looked good in either 2015, or this year. For all the criticism that EOS and Kidney rightly got, they produced teams that played better than any team Joe produced. That has to be the ultimate verdict on Joe.

Clegg

Professor Genius wrote: »

Your attitude enables the acceptability of these World Cup failures. I assume you’ll be at Dublin Airport to clap clap clap your heroes home ?

#teamofus

No.

The World Cup has been a failure. But looking at Schmidt's record it's plain to see he's the best coach we've ever had. 3 Six Nations titles in 6 years, our only two victories over New Zealand, our first ever test series victory in the Southern Hemisphere. That's a massive success in the context of what Ireland as achieved historically. Anyone who says otherwise isn't worth listening to.

Professor Genius

Clegg wrote: »

No.

The World Cup has been a failure. But looking at Schmidt's record it's plain to see he's the best coach we've ever had. 3 Six Nations titles in 6 years, our only two victories over New Zealand, our first ever test series victory in the Southern Hemisphere. That's a massive success in the context of what Ireland as achieved historically. Anyone who says otherwise isn't worth listening to.

Yes.


Ultimately a failure.

Ashleigh1986

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Far too many people are crowing about winning the 6Ns. The only competition that matters at international level is the WC. That's the long and short of it. It's a good buzz when we do manage to win a championship. I've suffered through enough years of ****e in the 90's to recognise that, and have gustily cheered our success; but the WC is the only time every team meets on a (mostly) even plain.

Winning knock out games is all that matters. DO you think the Patriots celebrate winning their division every year? The real season starts in the playoffs, and that's the focus. Do Leinster crow about topping a HC group? They're a means to an end.

Joe has failed to coach a team to play well in the knock outs, twice. Not even saying win, but play well. We haven't looked good in either 2015, or this year. For all the criticism that EOS and Kidney rightly got, they produced teams that played better than any team Joe produced. That has to be the ultimate verdict on Joe.

..... Exactly
Same in all sports
Do the champion league groups mean that much to the top teams ?
Do the euro qualifiers mean that much to the top European countries?
Do the World Cup qualifiers mean that much.....
It's all about the knock out stages !!!
It's the small country mentality .... Let's celebrate getting to tournaments .
This Irish team were expected to do great things at this World Cup but they failed.
They failed because they didn't produce it when it came to when the tournaments really starts for the top nations .
In all sports the true greats produce it when it really matters .
A top golfer produces it in a major .
A top team produces it in world cups even a top horse does it in the classics!!!

Clegg

Professor Genius wrote: »

Yes.


Ultimately a failure.

It's been explained to you that, in the context of where we've been as a test side, this has been the most successful period of our history. But you insist that the six years under Schmidt, where we've seen unprecedented success, has been a failure.

That's fair enough. I won't argue further.

JJJackal

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Far too many people are crowing about winning the 6Ns. The only competition that matters at international level is the WC. That's the long and short of it. It's a good buzz when we do manage to win a championship. I've suffered through enough years of ****e in the 90's to recognise that, and have gustily cheered our success; but the WC is the only time every team meets on a (mostly) even plain.

Winning knock out games is all that matters. DO you think the Patriots celebrate winning their division every year? The real season starts in the playoffs, and that's the focus. Do Leinster crow about topping a HC group? They're a means to an end.

Joe has failed to coach a team to play well in the knock outs, twice. Not even saying win, but play well. We haven't looked good in either 2015, or this year. For all the criticism that EOS and Kidney rightly got, they produced teams that played better than any team Joe produced. That has to be the ultimate verdict on Joe.

But they didnt win as much

Professor Genius

Clegg wrote: »

It's been explained to you that, in the context of where we've been as a test side, this has been the most successful period of our history. But you insist that the six years under Schmidt, where we've seen unprecedented success, has been a failure.

That's fair enough. I won't argue further.

Yes it’s best you withdraw.

Clegg

Professor Genius wrote: »

Yes it’s best you withdraw.

Definitely.

I can't argue with a troll.

tritriagain

Clegg wrote: »

Definitely.

I can't argue with a troll.

Because someone has a different opinion does not make them a troll. Joe did not hide the fact that his ambition was to win a quarter final and maybe more. So he and the team failed to do that. He has been a good coach but if he wasn't leaving questions would asked about his future.

Clegg

tritriagain wrote: »

Because someone has a different opinion does not make them a troll. Joe did not hide the fact that his ambition was to win a quarter final and maybe more. So he and the team failed to do that. He has been a good coach but if he wasn't leaving questions would asked about his future.

When the differing opinion flies in the face of all the facts at hand I've no qualms in calling that person a troll.

tritriagain

Clegg wrote: »

When the differing opinion flies in the face of all the facts at hand I've no qualms in calling that person a troll.

The fact is the last 2 world cups were a complete failure. This one more so because we had no real injury list. It's great to win 6n but obviously other teams are busy preparing for World cups. England Wales and even France make us look very ordinary at the moment. I like Joe and I love Irish rugby but to not examine the failure is doing Irish rugby a disservice.

WoollyRedHat

Are people really trying to say that Schmidt getting the team into a SF would of been better than all the 6N wins, you know, actual trophies, as if they count for nothing? Madness.

Danthemanhere

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

Are people really trying to say that Schmidt getting the team into a SF would of been better than all the 6N wins, you know, actual trophies, as if they count for nothing? Madness.

I think people are saying Schmidt failed at 2 world cups, the facts back that up.

Clegg

tritriagain wrote: »

The fact is the last 2 world cups were a complete failure. This one more so because we had no real injury list. It's great to win 6n but obviously other teams are busy preparing for World cups. England Wales and even France make us look very ordinary at the moment. I like Joe and I love Irish rugby but to not examine the failure is doing Irish rugby a disservice.

But nobody is discounting the fact that the world cup has been a failure. The argument was that Schmidt's tenure as Ireland's head coach has been a failure. When pesented with all the facts that is clearly not the case. And I would query the motivations of anyone who says otherwise. They aren't arguing in good faith.

Niallof9

Clegg wrote: »

Definitely.

I can't argue with a troll.

here we go

any critic is a troll....

amazing how many trolls get jobs writing about this same stuff

i don't think its a failure. But if you actually asked Schmidt, going by his comments, i reckon he would say both. He would admit 2015 and 2019 are massive failures. He failed completely since the last All Black game. didn't back people outside just like Eddie before him. Didn't change the gameplay when it clearly failed. It taints his legacy.

He's been our best ever coach but we'll have better ones again.

WoollyRedHat

Danthemanhere wrote: »

I think people are saying Schmidt failed at 2 world cups, the facts back that up.

Nobody could argue with that, but what they are also trying to insinuate that his whole tenure was ultimately a failure as a result of this despite the great heights he brought us and pretending the 6N victories counted for naught. Ludicrous.

tritriagain

Clegg wrote: »

But nobody is discounting the fact that the world cup has been a failure. The argument was that Schmidt's tenure as Ireland's head coach has been a failure. When pesented with all the facts that is clearly not the case. And I would query the motivations of anyone who says otherwise. They aren't arguing in good faith.

I'd say Joe doesn't believe his tenure was as successful as some people on here. The world Cup was his goal. As I said I think he's been a good coach. But I don't believe he was the god that some believed him to be. But hey no one died. We will rise again.

Clegg

Niallof9 wrote: »

here we go

any critic is a troll....

amazing how many trolls get jobs writing about this same stuff

i son't think its a failure. But if you actually asked Schmidt, going by his comments, i reckon he would say both. He would admit 2015 and 2019 are massive failures.

He's been our best ever coach but we'll have better ones again.

The argument isn't about Schmidt's failure at World Cups. That's certain for all to see. We should have done better.

What this poster, and others are saying, is that the entirety of Schmidt's tenure is now a failure. That is not true and will never be true despite all the wailing and moaning.

Danthemanhere

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

Nobody could argue with that, but what they are also trying to insinuate that his whole tenure was ultimately a failure as a result of this despite the great heights he brought us and pretending the 6N victories counted for naught. Ludicrous.

I don't think many are saying that. I think 2018 looks less good in retrospect as other teams were building for the world cup while we were going all out. Overall he's donw well but this year has soured his reputation for sure. Also, his style of play wasn't the most attractive.

Niallof9

Clegg wrote: »

The argument isn't about Schmidt's failure at World Cups. That's certain for all to see. We should have done better.

What this poster, and others are saying is that the entirety of Schmidt's tenure is now a failure. That is not true and will never be true despite all the wailing and moaning.

A couple of the journos are going there. Again i'm only referencing it so people like this aren't gaslit as mad outsiders. Guys getting paid to write about rugby are saying similar stuff. Its stupid yeah but the World Cups are massive failures.

The wins against the All Blacks were brilliant and the consistent winning of championships and the grand slam

South Africa i dunno we lost...Austrailia are poor but a good tour.

So we are in an amazing place because of Joe Schmidt. But look at Kidney's London Irish today. I was a critic, shamefully so but he's consigned to the dustbin like Eddie before him. They get filleted but Joe gets multi passes. Does Kidney's grand slam count for nothing?

Joe's legacy is tainted...we failed completely on the World Stage.

Personally i'm disappointed that he seemed to stop being the Leinster Schmidt...different level yeah.

Deusexmachina

We fired the best coach Ireland ever had. He’s coaching Wales in the semifinal with his Grand Slam winning team.
Joe was a great coach too but Warren has the more impressive record of success with equally limited resources.

Niallof9

Deusexmachina wrote: »

We fired the best coach Ireland ever had. He’s coaching Wales in the semifinal with his Grand Slam winning team.
Joe was a great coach too but Warren has the more impressive record of success with equally limited resources.

Yeah but people said Warrenball was so **** and boring....

Whats that make our play under Schmidt like?

Lets be honest it was winning rugby but it was schmidt winning rugby. I've been banned for using the JB word so i won't.

The strategy and cunning was clever and ahead of the curve like when we kicked our way to winning. Then it was pick and jams, one out runners and carriers.

The strangest aspect of it all is that we got the one kiwi out of millions who is averse to running rugby with offloads. its a strange quirk.

Joe would never have been the All Blacks coach doing what he did with us. And if he changed for them then why not us? did he mistrust our skills like Trapattoni in the roundball?