The Joe Schmidt era.

shootermacg

Danthemanhere wrote: »

We lost to Japan, have you wiped that game from your memory? We got our record biggest defeat on top of that and at the last world cup, Argentina beat us by 23 points! He failed at the world cups.

Except for one team, all teams fail at the world cup......

crossman47

shootermacg wrote: »

The meeja, these days, is like a feedback loop that turns idiots into bigger idiots!

And O'Connor in todays Indo is a prime example. Hes trying to show hes brave by giving players marks of one out of ten. I give him 0 out of 10 for fair comment.

Utah_Saint

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Statement from Joe :

"To our good and loyal followers : After pondering deeply the general trends of the World Cup and the actual conditions obtaining in our squad today, we have decided to effect a settlement of the present situation by resorting to an extraordinary measure.

We have ordered our Team Management to communicate to the Team Managements of New Zeland, England, and South Africa, that our squad accepts the provisions of their joint declaration.

To strive for the common prosperity and happiness of all nations as well as the security and well-being of our subjects is the solemn obligation which has been handed down by our imperial ancestors and which we lay close to the heart.

Indeed, we launched our world cup campaign out of our sincere desire to insure Ireland's rugby success.

But now the campaign has lasted for nearly four years. Despite the best that has been done by everyone - the gallant fighting of our forwards and backs, the diligence and assiduity of out servants of the squad, and the devoted service of our 6,000,000 people - the World Cup situation has developed not necessarily to Ireland's advantage, while the general trends of the tournament have all turned against her interest.

We cannot but express the deepest sense of regret to our supporters, who have consistently cooperated with the squad toward the emancipation of Irish rugby.

Let the entire nation continue as one family from generation to generation, ever firm in its faith of the imperishableness of its divine land, and mindful of its heavy burden of responsibilities, and the long road before it. Unite your total strength to be devoted to the construction for the future. Cultivate the ways of rectitude, nobility of spirit, and work with resolution so that you may enhance the innate glory of Irish rugby and keep pace with the progress of the world."

Thanks Joe for the best years I've had as an Irish Rugby fan. You will be greatly missed. Not just for your service to the National side but to Leinster and the young adults you helped educate during your time as a teacher. I wish you and your family all the best now and for the future. Thanks Joe!

DellyBelly

Utah_Saint wrote: »

Thanks Joe for the best years I've had as an Irish Rugby fan. You will be greatly missed. Not just for your service to the National side but to Leinster and the young adults you helped educate during your time as a teacher. I wish you and your family all the best now and for the future. Thanks Joe!

Not sure why you posted that here. He's hardly going to read it I'd say. Probably better off sending it to him via the IRFU.

Maybe Michael Cheika screaming at our players is what we needed

8-10

Balls.ie had this article in 2015 after the QF loss to Argentina predicting Joe's 2019 squad:

https://www.balls.ie/rugby/ireland-2019-rugby-313420

Thought it was interesting to see what players they thought were going to be in the picture 4 years out, especially as they got quite a lot right e.g. back row and centres.

But also interesting that the likes of Kearney, Sexton, Earls, Best weren't considered, presumably based on age.

JJJackal

8-10 wrote: »

Balls.ie had this article in 2015 after the QF loss to Argentina predicting Joe's 2019 squad:

https://www.balls.ie/rugby/ireland-2019-rugby-313420

Thought it was interesting to see what players they thought were going to be in the picture 4 years out, especially as they got quite a lot right e.g. back row and centres.

But also interesting that the likes of Kearney, Sexton, Earls, Best weren't considered, presumably based on age.

Also shows how you can predict who will be available in 4 years- Ciaran Gaffney has retired due to a serious neck injury

Danthemanhere

shootermacg wrote: »

Except for one team, all teams fail at the world cup......

Yes but there's levels of failure. We failed miserably. We were a rabble. Schmidt must take the blame.

Danthemanhere

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe Michael Cheika screaming at our players is what we needed

Or maybe a coach with a decent gameplan? Like most other coaches at the world cup.

JJJackal

Danthemanhere wrote: »

Yes but there's levels of failure. We failed miserably. We were a rabble. Schmidt must take the blame.

So far I would say only Ireland, Scotland, Argentina and Fiji will be particularly disappointed

Danthemanhere

JJJackal wrote: »

So far I would say only Ireland, Scotland, Argentina and Fiji will be particularly disappointed

And I'm sure the coaches of their teams have come in for criticism.

JJJackal

Danthemanhere wrote: »

And I'm sure the coaches of their teams have come in for criticism.

No doubt - each has performed well below expectation

JJJackal

JJJackal wrote: »

So far I would say only Ireland, Scotland, Argentina and Fiji will be particularly disappointed

Australia too. Loss to Wales and never got going against England. Just as bad as us, possibly worse as at least we showed up against Scotland.

JJJackal

Deleted User wrote: »

Australia too. Loss to Wales and never got going against England. Just as bad as us, possibly worse as at least we showed up against Scotland.

Good shout with Australia

Danthemanhere

JJJackal wrote: »

No doubt - each has performed well below expectation

For sure. I think the number 1 ranked team in the world going into the tournament have far more to be disappointed in than the others though.

swiwi_

Pretty good coach. Achilles heel was selection. Typified for me by investing in Marmion then weirdly dropping him for McGrath because the latter was supposed to have a better box kick. You could have selected Schmidt’s Irish team in January, only maybe Toner for Henderson and Aki for Ringrose. The best coaches are ruthless with selection, witness Gatland through the years for example. Form has to come into the equation, and it clearly didn’t for Schmidt in 2019. If you leave 2019 aside, Ireland played pretty consistently well throughout his tenure though and he had some very good achievements.

average_runner

Deleted User wrote: »

Australia too. Loss to Wales and never got going against England. Just as bad as us, possibly worse as at least we showed up against Scotland.

We didnt show up in this world cup or in 2019 at all.

thebaz

Great coach - exceptional up to this calendar year - but something happened after Christmas, was it the pressure lead up to the WC or just time ran out similar to Wegner at Arsenal - Joe made some strange decisions this calendar year too - Klyne for Toner / Marmion dropped - its a shame , but his record will be clouded by this calendar year , the strange thing about Saturday I can not think of one Irish player that played well - even Furlong and ryan looked bang average - Sport can be strange.

Poor_old_gill

For anyone to say that this World Cup campaign wasn’t a bit of a shambles is pointlessly blinkered.

We played poorly against Russia, were well beaten by Japan and hammered by NZ.

Our game plan is the most predictable in the world and realistically we are the number 4 nation in the northern hemisphere on current form.

Joe did a good job for a long time but he’s probable left us in as bad, if not worse, a position relative to the other top nations than before he took over.

MadYaker

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

For anyone to say that this World Cup campaign wasn’t a bit of a shambles is pointlessly blinkered.

We played poorly against Russia, were well beaten by Japan and hammered by NZ.

Our game plan is the most predictable in the world and realistically we are the number 4 nation in the northern hemisphere on current form.

Joe did a good job for a long time but he’s probable left us in as bad, if not worse, a position relative to the other top nations than before he took over.

You weren’t paying attention back then if you think our squad is worse now than when he took over. 2019 was a bad year for him. We played poorly and his selection decisions were wrong at times. But he’s still the best and most successful coach we’ve had, 7/10 imo

Poor_old_gill

MadYaker wrote: »

You weren’t paying attention back then if you think our squad is worse now than when he took over. 2019 was a bad year for him. We played poorly and his selection decisions were wrong at times. But he’s still the best and most successful coach we’ve had, 7/10 imo

I didn’t say our squad was worse in totality- we are in a worse or as bad a position relative to the other teams.

They have all improved aswell and we are about number 4 in the 6 nations.

About 7/8 in the world at the moment- where were we when he took over.

The word relative is key here

Dubinusa

MadYaker wrote: »

Was that his job description or did you just decide that all on your own? If people are going to ignore everything apart from 2019 then obviously his tenure looks like a failure.

Imo he left Irish rugby in a waaaay stronger place than he found it.

His job description! Are you mad? His job is to win as much as possible. On the biggest stage he failed, twice.
I have an opinion. You have your opinion. We will disagree, I suppose.
I get the 6 nation wins etc, but on the biggest stage, we lost. To me, our performance in the rwc was a failure.

Dubinusa

shootermacg wrote: »

Except for one team, all teams fail at the world cup......

True! But our inability to even be competitive against NZ is damning. Qf's are our ceiling apparently.
Wales are into the sf!
2 years ago we thought the Boks were ****! Rassie has turned them around. Rassie looks to be a super coach.
Our talent has been really good these last 5 years or so and yet we got smoked all year long!

Shefwedfan

Dubinusa wrote: »

True! But our inability to even be competitive against NZ is damning. Qf's are our ceiling apparently.
Wales are into the sf!
2 years ago we thought the Boks were ****! Rassie has turned them around. Rassie looks to be a super coach.
Our talent has been really good these last 5 years or so and yet we got smoked all year long!

How many players can Rassie pick from?

Danthemanhere

Shefwedfan wrote: »

How many players can Rassie pick from?

How many can Wales? New Zealand?

the.red.baron

Overall, positive


at Leinster, brilliant, if that's to be included, cheika and knoxy had done a lot of the work and he improved on that.


He had a great bunch of players there and as the players leinster have brought in over the years, Nacewa, Rocky, thorn, the pony, coupled with some unreal talent, sexton, darcy o'driscoll


Great teams, well coached


For Ireland, well organised for sure, tactically good, really great guy



but I think that the players aren't there


People go on about being ruthless, but look at sexton off form yes, but he couldn't be dropped


the back row is possibly the weakest its been in decades, but who could they bring in



Furlong and Ryan the stand out players really in the forwards


Toner not going was obviously the wrong call


So to judge him, are we in a better place now, than 2013, i don't think so



All the talk of squad depth, was I think so wrong


And the team versus the team say from 2011 is way weaker, at center, outhalf and the backrow, even the wings and full back given the ages there and defensive issues, and handsomeness deficit



The system imploded against NZ and we seemed unfit against everyone save Scotland

Trojan

Some absolutely ridiculous posts. (Joe'd be sacked if he wasn't leaving? Are you on drugs?) It's embarrassing to read this. We were unquestionably the best team in the world in 2018, regardless of what world rankings said.

Ironically, when we actually got the #1 ranking, we were well down the wrong side of the slope. Joe Schmidt took us all the way to the top. With all due respect to Declan Kidney, Eddie O'Sullivan or even Warren Gatland, I can't see them delivering what Joe did.

I think when our gameplan was exposed in the 2019 Six Nations we needed some additional weapons, and either Joe didn't feel we needed a change - i.e. just implement better - or maybe he felt it was too close to the RWC to try to implement things. Either way, it looks like a mistake in hindsight.

Apart from the gameplan, our implementation was horrible this RWC, far too many mistakes in almost every game. Some of that might genuinely be down to conditions, but there might be other causes. For that, we'll eventually learn why, and maybe it was Joe's fault. For me that doesn't eclipse his successes. He changed Irish rugby for the better.

To me, it all came down to player error this year. How do you account for constant dropping balls.

MadYaker

[Deleted User] wrote: »

To me, it all came down to player error this year. How do you account for constant dropping balls.

That was part of it but it was Schmidt’s fault too. Kleyn in for toner raised eyebrows and his selection decisions in general were off. Sticking with veterans even though they weren’t performing etc

weldoninhio

8th when he took over, 5th when he left. Decent in the interim. Hardly a lasting legacy.

nacho libre

weldoninhio wrote: »

8th when he took over, 5th when he left. Decent in the interim. Hardly a lasting legacy.

He has brought Ireland on, the wins against New Zeland and Australia away should be recognised, but ultimately his reign ends in failure. The ultimate goal was always to get to a semi- final in a World Cup. I just wonder did the team peak in 2018, or was it that other teams were building for the World Cup. Certainly the English team that we played on that snowy st patricks day is not a patch on the current side.

AbusesToilets

The tour to SA seems like a bit of an inflection point in retrospect. We played excellently for large parts, and should've won 3-0 frankly. The teams selected we're pretty experimental, Jackson starting, Olding , Payne at 15. I'd be curious how Joe viewed that tour and how that shaped his plans subsequently.

The Jackson issues really undermined a lot of plan, you'd have feel things would've been much better with both of them available.

Andreas77

nacho libre wrote: »

The ultimate goal was always to get to a semi- final in a World Cup. I just wonder did the team peak in 2018, or was it that other teams were building for the World Cup.

The whole "peaking too early" thing is a misnomer. If you had had more success in the World Cup you'd be saying that it was the successes of 2018 that lay the foundation for the successes of 2019. Success is supposed to breed success, isn't that cliche?

Shefwedfan

AbusesToilets wrote: »

The tour to SA seems like a bit of an inflection point in retrospect. We played excellently for large parts, and should've won 3-0 frankly. The teams selected we're pretty experimental, Jackson starting, Olding , Payne at 15. I'd be curious how Joe viewed that tour and how that shaped his plans subsequently.

The Jackson issues really undermined a lot of plan, you'd have feel things would've been much better with both of them available.

It would have been hugely different. Even the loss of Carbery to injury in the warm up had a huge knock on affect to the WC....


PJ would have been pushing Sexton all the way to the WC....Carbery could and probably would have been playing 15 for Ireland.

Foxtrol

Andreas77 wrote: »

The whole "peaking too early" thing is a misnomer. If you had had more success in the World Cup you'd be saying that it was the successes of 2018 that lay the foundation for the successes of 2019. Success is supposed to breed success, isn't that cliche?

If that was true, every successful team would only get more successful as time passes

BarryD2

Well if both NZ and SA get to the final, which is a reasonable prospect, then we'll all look back and rationalise - ah sure we never really had a chance of getting beyond the QFs this time due to the draw. Beaten by the finalists etc.

Foxtrol

When you look at his legacy Joe is very much a victim of his own success that will be looked back on extremely fondly, especially if they don't hit the ground running under the new management. He elevated the expectations of everyone but now he has to held to that standard.

He was unfortunate in the timing of how the squad developed, with several key players just past their peak and most of the young blood infused the previous seasons, meaning the squad became stale. He is far from innocent in the WC failure, with many of his calls to stick by players ending up in hindsight to be wrong. I think the overall preparations were also poor, the team never looked to be at the required condition to compete.

BarryD2

But the whole judgment thing about Joe Schmidt is a bit meaningless. I mean, if we had won one extra match, got to the SFs and lost - would he then be lauded as a messiah? One match more? What if Stockdale had held that intercept early on and sprinted to the line? What if that drove us on and put doubts in the AB heads?

lawrencesummers

JJJackal wrote: »

So far I would say only Ireland, Scotland, Argentina and Fiji will be particularly disappointed

You can add France, Australia, Canada to that list.

lawrencesummers

BarryD2 wrote: »

But the whole judgment thing about Joe Schmidt is a bit meaningless. I mean, if we had won one extra match, got to the SFs and lost - would he then be lauded as a messiah? One match more? What if Stockdale had held that intercept early on and sprinted to the line? What if that drove us on and put doubts in the AB heads?

If stock sale held that ball then we would have been hammered by seven less points.

Danthemanhere

BarryD2 wrote: »

But the whole judgment thing about Joe Schmidt is a bit meaningless. I mean, if we had won one extra match, got to the SFs and lost - would he then be lauded as a messiah? One match more? What if Stockdale had held that intercept early on and sprinted to the line? What if that drove us on and put doubts in the AB heads?

It's not just that we got knocked out in the quarter final, it's that we got battered in the quarter final after losing to Japan in the group. I've asked before and i haven't seen an answer, what were the management team doing for the past year? We were a rudderless shambles. It's like we were a side just thrown together. It was embarrassing.

The Rape of Lucretia

Danthemanhere wrote: »

It's not just that we got knocked out in the quarter final, it's that we got battered in the quarter final after losing to Japan in the group. I've asked before and i haven't seen an answer, what were the management team doing for the past year? We were a rudderless shambles. It's like we were a side just thrown together. It was embarrassing.

It certainly wasnt embarrassing. Its only a game. The important thing is to be there, taking part, giving it a go, and win or lose, get on with things in a good spirit. They put a lot of work in, thats true. But there can only be one winner of the tournament at the end of the day as they say, and so the world would be a rather gloomy place if all non winners got down in the dumps abut that. We play sport for fun. The challenge. The commeraderie. The meeting of people from other parts of the world and the making of friends for life. Rugby is also very character building and gives you a lot of lessons for life beyond the rugby field. So, leave the world cup not embarrassed. But enriched. Proud to have been part of it. Had a go as it were. And as spectactators, we should also be proud of our fellow country men, and the few others we co-opted, and their contribution to making this celebration of rugby the marvelous success that it is.

kippy

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

It certainly wasnt embarrassing. Its only a game. The important thing is to be there, taking part, giving it a go, and win or lose, get on with things in a good spirit. They put a lot of work in, thats true. But there can only be one winner of the tournament at the end of the day as they say, and so the world would be a rather gloomy place if all non winners got down in the dumps abut that. We play sport for fun. The challenge. The commeraderie. The meeting of people from other parts of the world and the making of friends for life. Rugby is also very character building and gives you a lot of lessons for life beyond the rugby field. So, leave the world cup not embarrassed. But enriched. Proud to have been part of it. Had a go as it were. And as spectactators, we should also be proud of our fellow country men, and the few others we co-opted, and their contribution to making this celebration of rugby the marvelous success that it is.

Excellent post.
+100

Clegg

Deusexmachina wrote: »

I didn’t mean to upset you.
I only offered the opinion that the best coach to ever coach Ireland is Warren Gatland and we fired him.
That’s not to say that he had the best winning record with Ireland, that goes to Joe.
But I would have liked to see how Warren would have fared over time. I remember how he fundamentally improved Ireland at the time.
He has proven himself to be almost peerless in the last 10 years. A brilliant coach and very underrated in Ireland generally for some reason.

Essentially, you're saying Gatland is the best coach Ireland ever had based on his record over the last 10 years. He was sacked 18 years ago. Your argument makes zero sense. You cannot apply his successes elsewhere retrospectively.

He'll be remembered for laying the groundwork for some success later down the line. But it was early in his career and he wasn't half the coach then that he is now. Under his tenure we had the infamous 13 man lineout in Lens. He was nowhere near as tactically astute back then. Gatland credits his time at Wasps, after his Ireland sacking, as the period that made him as a coach.

Danthemanhere

Clegg wrote: »

Essentially, you're saying Gatland is the best coach Ireland ever had based on his record over the last 10 years. He was sacked 18 years ago. Your argument makes zero sense. You cannot apply his successes elsewhere retrospectively.

He'll be remembered for laying the groundwork for some success later down the line. But it was early in his career and he wasn't half the coach then that he is now. Under his tenure we had the infamous 13 man lineout in Lens. He was nowhere near as tactically astute back then. Gatland credits his time at Wasps, after his Ireland sacking, as the period that made him as a coach.

Ah lads, earlier there were people claiming that Schmidt is a better coach than Jones, now you're trying to claim Schmidt is a better coach than Gatland? Come on. Jones and Gatland might not be the most likeable people but they are very, very good coaches, better than Schmidt.

Clegg

Danthemanhere wrote: »

Ah lads, earlier there were people claiming that Schmidt is a better coach than Jones, now you're trying to claim Schmidt is a better coach than Gatland? Come on. Jones and Gatland might not be the most likeable people but they are very, very good coaches, better than Schmidt.

That is not what I've said at all.

Danthemanhere

Clegg wrote: »

That is not what I've said at all.

You edited your post as I was posting.

Shefwedfan

Danthemanhere wrote: »

Ah lads, earlier there were people claiming that Schmidt is a better coach than Jones, now you're trying to claim Schmidt is a better coach than Gatland? Come on. Jones and Gatland might not be the most likeable people but they are very, very good coaches, better than Schmidt.

Very, very good coach's....


That what the IRFU should put on next job spec, we want a "very very good coach" :P:P:P:P

Danthemanhere

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Very, very good coach's....


That what the IRFU should put on next job spec, we want a "very very good coach" :P:P:P:P

No, they'll just have to put "anything but Joeball"! :pac:

Clegg

Danthemanhere wrote: »

You edited your post as I was posting.

But the main point, the one I made yesterday, remains the same. It's nonsensical to call Gatland the greatest coach Ireland ever had when performances and results say otherwise.

The fact that he's developed into one of the best coaches in the world is an enormous credit to his work ethic and willingness to learn and adapt. The Warren Gatland now isn't the one that took the Ireland job in 1998.