Paying for sex

kiki_the_third

Canelo Kovalev wrote: »

Perhaps you should consider that the prostitutes who choose to do it and are happy with the choice are smart enough not to let people like you know about it. For example the boards AMA escort. Only one person knows what she does apart from her clients. She does it part time.

There is likely a selection bias you are seeing, the basket cases are careless. The smart middle class ones are discrete, nobody is any the wiser of the visits to their apartment.

Did you read the part of that AMA where the escort talked about the rampant sex trafficking, or did you only read the bits that suited you?

anewme

Canelo Kovalev wrote: »

When exactly did I say sex trafficking doesn't occur?

Even one occurance of this is too many.

kiki_the_third

Canelo Kovalev wrote: »

When exactly did I say sex trafficking doesn't occur?

Okay, so you understand that sex trafficking occurs, and you understand that there are many women with addiction issues (basket cases, I think you called them) involved in the sex industry.

Do you see any moral issue with supporting those who profit off such vulnerable people?

leggo

Guy Person wrote: »

I assume by adult store you mean where they sell dildos, butt plugs and the like? Serious question but why would prostitutes be in there every day?

Lingerie, toys, lube etc. The same ones wouldn’t be in every day but we’d have our regulars who’d be in weekly, some a couple times a week. But they’d be some of the most regular customers, because it’s a part of their job obviously, and it’d be a liberal place so they’d feel like they’d open up and the girls would hear most of their stories eventually.

We had one who had to hide in the fitting rooms once because a lad recognised her and started following her around town. I asked him to leave but he waited outside, so we called the guards (which we had to talk her into, she was foreign so there was a language barrier, so we just said that if he said anything to lie).

kiki_the_third

Canelo Kovalev wrote: »

Indeed I do, that's why prostitution should be made legal and regulated.

And while that is also my position - again, as the least-worst option - did you read the article on the previous page about sex trafficking in Germany, where it is legal. It hasn't solved the problem, and you could say it has made it worse.

Reducing demand is crucial.

leggo

kiki_the_third wrote: »

And while that is also my position - again, as the least-worst option - did you read the article on the previous page about sex trafficking in Germany, where it is legal. It hasn't solved the problem, and you could say it has made it worse.

Reducing demand is crucial.

There’s no reducing demand. Online has made it practically impenetrable. You can see the logic lads use to talk themselves around it spelled out here, some have convinced themselves that they’re actually the moral ones. Legalising and regulating strictly is the best shot at offering any kind of protection, but it’s not a realistic goal. Old people vote in Ireland and they’re not going to come out for this, which isn’t going to force political pressure, and you’re not going to get the same groups that pushed SSM/repeal campaigning for that.

leggo

Canelo Kovalev wrote: »

You can never eradicate crime completely. Purchasers of sex should have a way to verify that the sellers are registered and willing. Perhaps a government certificate could be issued to each registered sex worker.

Johns are not the concern here. Any regulation should be focused at protecting prostitutes. If you want to pay for sex and bad **** happens...that’s on you.

kiki_the_third

Canelo Kovalev wrote: »

You can never eradicate crime completely. Purchasers of sex should have a way to verify that the sellers are registered and willing. Perhaps a government certificate could be issued to each registered sex worker.

The goal is not to eradicate it completely, it's to reduce it as much as possible. You'll never completely eradicate robbery, does that mean we should stop trying to prevent it?

kiki_the_third

leggo wrote: »

There’s no reducing demand. Online has made it practically impenetrable. You can see the logic lads use to talk themselves around it spelled out here, some have convinced themselves that they’re actually the moral ones. Legalising and regulating strictly is the best shot at offering any kind of protection, but it’s not a realistic goal. Old people vote in Ireland and they’re not going to come out for this, which isn’t going to force political pressure, and you’re not going to get the same groups that pushed SSM/repeal campaigning for that.

I could be wrong but I don't think it would require a referendum. Change is slow but it happens. In the 80s you could bring the kids to a smoky pub, drink all night and drive home. Incremental societal change is the key. Protections for sex workers and education for young people. Harsh penalties for trafficking.

kiki_the_third

Canelo Kovalev wrote: »

Women should be given the choice to have sex for money if they so wish. As should men be given the choice to have sex for money. People should be free to choose for themselves.

It seems like you're not listening. Most sex workers are vulnerable members of society. They often come from backgrounds of poverty, addiction or trafficking, and can be underage.

So if you're going to a prostitute, and you can be sure she's:

- over 18
- in the country legally and of her own free will
- not from a vulnerable background

then sure, **** her.

But the thing is you'll never be sure of all of that. You'll always be placing your sexual gratification above another human's dignity.

kiki_the_third

Canelo Kovalev wrote: »

On what basis are you saying most sex workers are vulnerable? How do you know this?

I an not refuting that is the case, but if you are making the assertion I would expect there is a basis for it.

If you want to shag prostitutes that's your business.

I can't post links because I'm a new user but there is plenty of research out there into the connection between IV drug use and prostitution and into sex trafficking. Spend about five minutes googling it.

dotsman

FurtherAway wrote: »

https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/human-trafficking-persists-despite-legality-of-prostitution-in-germany-a-902533-3.html

Even before reading that article, I knew the article would be ridiculously biased. And when reading it, it becomes abundantly clear. I don't know the authors, but I do know one thing about them - they were against prostitution before they wrote that article, and intended for the article to be completely one-sided, in both its arguments and its content.

leggo

“Give me proof human trafficking exists!”
“Here’s proof.”
“The proof is wrong! I’m the good person!”

dotsman

Ultimately, there is a lot more to controlling human trafficking that simply decriminalising prostitution (but keeping it relatively in the shadows. Decriminalising homosexuality didn't immediately stop the abuse, but it lay the foundation for gay people to fight for their rights. Decriminalisation is just the first step. Proper regulation, and more importantly, social acceptance of prostitution is the key.

You can see it in this thread, the majority of people look down on those involved - both the prostitutes and the clients. Until people can get over their conservative views on sex and prostitution, it will always be underground and rife with abuse.

Naggdefy

mr_fegelien wrote: »

Why is it seen as wrong? Sex is considered a need like food, water, shelter yet paying for it is considered immoral, desperate, offensive to women, etc....

The "it spreads STD's argument" doesn't add up because many escorts get tested more often than typical couples.

Are you being paid a fee per thread you start.. I've never seen anything like it!

dotsman

leggo wrote: »

“Give me proof human trafficking exists!”
“Here’s proof.”
“The proof is wrong! I’m the good person!”

Anyone asking for proof that human trafficking exists has the IQ of a house fly. Anyone who thinks that's what anybody on this thread is asking for has clearly missed the mark.

leggo

Conservative attitudes towards people who use prostitutes? I’ve heard it all now! Go on, start comparing your ‘struggles’ to the discrimination experienced by black or gay people next. Would somebody please think of the warty lads who want the ride but can’t be arsed getting a gym membership slobbering over some poor addict girl who’ll literally do anything for their next hit?

mr_fegelien

Naggdefy wrote: »

Are you being paid a fee per thread you start.. I've never seen anything like it!

What do you mean...lol. I just like to answer questions. Remember jeanjolie in 2017? He asked so many questions as well. I'm the reincarnation.

endacl

mr_fegelien wrote: »

What do you mean...lol. I just like to answer questions. Remember jeanjolie in 2017? He asked so many questions as well. I'm the reincarnationreg.

Starting to make sense...

dotsman

leggo wrote: »

Conservative attitudes towards people who use prostitutes? I’ve heard it all now! Go on, start comparing your ‘struggles’ to the discrimination experienced by black or gay people next. Would somebody please think of the warty lads who want the ride but can’t be arsed getting a gym membership slobbering over some poor addict girl who’ll literally do anything for their next hit?

Your posts really show that, not only do you not have a clue about what you are talking about, but you also have no desire to contribute to the thread. Goodnight.

lozenges

For a large proportion of sex workers - not all - choosing to work in prostitution is like choosing to work in a sweatshop. It is a choice made by people in very straitened circumstances with minimal - no alternative options.
Does that mean it should be illegal? No, because clearly some people are making a free choice to do it. But it should be recognised that they are potentially a highly vulnerable group of workers. Therefore it should be highly regulated. Specifically:
Sex work only to occur in licensed premises
Unannounced spot checks on said premises
Extremely punitive fines if substandard working/health and safety conditions
Mandatory condom use
Mandatory free PrEP to be provided to sex workers by those running premises
Mandatory free LARCs to be provided to female sex workers by those running premises.

Also some earlier asked what about male sex workers. I cannot find any data on this but logically, given the free availability of casual sexual encounters for gay and bisexual men on platforms such as grindr I would suspect that they are even likely to be more vulnerable to abuse than female sex workers.

Oh, and if some of the people on this thread advocating for legalisation would stop referring to sex workers as 'brazzers' and implying they are damaged goods it would lend more credence to their argument.

leggo

dotsman wrote: »

Your posts really show that, not only do you not have a clue about what you are talking about, but you also have no desire to contribute to the thread. Goodnight.

The following is indisputable:

The consent someone who uses a prostitute has is paid for. It has not been obtained because they actually wanted to sleep with them. It’s not rape but it is purchased, unlawful consent and not actual, enthusiastic consent. Feel free to read the AMA people here swear on as bible if you don’t believe me: even the prostitute who saw it as just another job put on an act to make every client feel like their favourite. They saw it as a transaction and wouldn’t sleep with clients they were actually interested in. And that’s sourced from someone who seems pretty balanced and level-headed in an industry filled with vulnerable workers.

That’s not a ‘conservative view’, that’s a factual observation.

Reviews and Books Galore

leggo wrote: »

Conservative attitudes towards people who use prostitutes? I’ve heard it all now! Go on, start comparing your ‘struggles’ to the discrimination experienced by black or gay people next. Would somebody please think of the warty lads who want the ride but can’t be arsed getting a gym membership slobbering over some poor addict girl who’ll literally do anything for their next hit?

Again, you have a very strange view on the dynamics at play.



Perhaps it's a businessman who drives a rolls royce with such a high sex drive that no one woman can quench it? Or just a guy who wants to explore fantisies?



I'm also curious why people think people shouldn't become prostitutes because of mental illness?

Reviews and Books Galore

leggo wrote: »

The following is indisputable:

The consent someone who uses a prostitute has is paid for. It has not been obtained because they actually wanted to sleep with them. It’s not rape but it is purchased, unlawful consent and not actual, enthusiastic consent. Feel free to read the AMA people here swear on as bible if you don’t believe me: even the prostitute who saw it as just another job put on an act to make every client feel like their favourite. They saw it as a transaction and wouldn’t sleep with clients they were actually interested in. And that’s sourced from someone who seems pretty balanced and level-headed in an industry filled with vulnerable workers.

That’s not a ‘conservative view’, that’s a factual observation.

So under the Dublin Rape Crisis centre's definition it is rape.



I wonder how long are we going to put up with this changing the notion of consent malarky?

Reviews and Books Galore

kiki_the_third wrote: »

Also, and it's hard to believe that this even has to be said - all human trafficking is bad. There is no level of human trafficking that I'm okay with.

Being trafficked into the sex industry is arguably one of the worst forms of it, but none of them are acceptable.

If your argument is "I'm okay with women being forced into prostitution because sometimes men are forced to do unpleasant jobs", I suggest you take a long, hard look at yourself.[/QUOTE]


:rolleyes:

leggo

leggo wrote: »

The following is indisputable:

The consent someone who uses a prostitute has is paid for. It has not been obtained because they actually wanted to sleep with them. It’s not rape but it is purchased, unlawful consent and not actual, enthusiastic consent. Feel free to read the AMA people here swear on as bible if you don’t believe me: even the prostitute who saw it as just another job put on an act to make every client feel like their favourite. They saw it as a transaction and wouldn’t sleep with clients they were actually interested in. And that’s sourced from someone who seems pretty balanced and level-headed in an industry filled with vulnerable workers.

That’s not a ‘conservative view’, that’s a factual observation.

Actually leggo, they DO want to sleep with the person, because they want the financial benefit. If they are willing to have sex (and are not being forced to), despite not being attracted or interested personally to the other person, that is still consent.

You don't always need to be enthusiastic to consent to sex.

leggo

leggo wrote: »

Conservative attitudes towards people who use prostitutes? I’ve heard it all now! Go on, start comparing your ‘struggles’ to the discrimination experienced by black or gay people next. Would somebody please think of the warty lads who want the ride but can’t be arsed getting a gym membership slobbering over some poor addict girl who’ll literally do anything for their next hit?

Oh Christ. are you going down this privilege route now? Tell us how evil straight white men are and how your "struggle" only matters if you are from a group of people you have deemed to be "oppressed".

You posts are literally textbook memes that people use if they want to parody the fabled "SJW".

"Warty lads"? Jesus, careful or you will have to start giving out to yourself for body shaming.

nkl12xtw5goz70

leggo wrote: »

Conservative attitudes towards people who use prostitutes? I’ve heard it all now! Go on, start comparing your ‘struggles’ to the discrimination experienced by black or gay people next.

Black and gay people use prostitutes too.

Madalynn Hundreds Traveller

Madalynn Hundreds Traveller wrote: »

Black and gay people use prostitutes too.

Yeah but that's ok

dvdman1

JupiterKid wrote: »

So what do you think of gay men who have regular sex with different partners, even - believe it or not - in consensual open relationships with their long-term partners/husbands? Does it **** them up too?

Stop projecting your own morality onto others. What others do with respect to their sex lives in really none of your business.

Its you thats projecting your mortality, last time i checked prostitution is illegal here. Your train of though only encourages more of this....of the countries that have legalised it they have seen an increase...prostitution doesnt offer anything positive to irish society

dvdman1

dvdman1 wrote: »

Its you thats projecting your mortality, last time i checked prostitution is illegal here. Your train of though only encourages more of this....of the countries that have legalised it they have seen an increase...prostitution doesnt offer anything positive to irish society

I think paraphrasing the line of the pro choice camp will fit this:

"If you don't want to hire a prostitute, don't. Making it legal, accessible and safe for others doesn't affect your ability to not use one".

dvdman1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I think paraphrasing the line of the pro choice camp will fit this:

"If you don't want to hire a prostitute, don't. Making it legal, accessible and safe for others doesn't affect your ability to not use one".

We live in a collective...its called society, what 1 does can have a knock on affect to others.
So are you going to encourage career guidance to list prostitution as a job for potential pupils?

Andreas77

Before I met ex-wife I organised with about thirty women for sex through old-fashioned classifieds (paper magazine). Activities involved doggy style, deep throat, ass-to-mouth, scooping, doctor/nurse roleplay, sex in multi-storey carpark, natural history museum, sex toys, dilation, ass play, mutual masturbation, double edge dildos. Typically these women were between thirty five and forty five, many attractive, a few grizzled ones. I was in mid twenties and never before I had seen so many shaking booties and boobies and toys except in the movies.

Reviews and Books Galore

Andreas77 wrote: »

Before I met ex-wife I organised with about thirty women for sex through old-fashioned classifieds (paper magazine). Activities involved doggy style, deep throat, ass-to-mouth, scooping, doctor/nurse roleplay, sex in multi-storey carpark, natural history museum, sex toys, dilation, ass play, mutual masturbation, double edge dildos. Typically these women were between thirty five and forty five, many attractive, a few grizzled ones. I was in mid twenties and never before I had seen so many shaking booties and boobies and toys except in the movies.

Did you pay or was it unpaid?

randd1

dvdman1 wrote: »

We live in a collective...its called society, what 1 does can have a knock on affect to others.
So are you going to encourage career guidance to list prostitution as a job for potential pupils?

If the money was good enough, it would surely be worth considering.

Ultimately it should be up to people themselves to decided whether they want to be paid or pay for sex. If both parties are agreeable, what's the harm to society?

The only ones that seem to have a problem with prostitution are those who's sensibilities are such that they see it as grubby or amoral. Good for you. Of course other people may see it completely differently.

Legislate, regulate and educate is the obvious way to go, let consenting adults decide for themselves what they want to do, and if it's a business transaction then treat it as a business and tax it. If anybody has a problem with it, then they should simply not pay for sex.

It's about time in this country we let adults decide for themselves what they want to so long as it doesn't hurt other people rather than taking the ban because I dislike approach to matters we've always had.

Don't like it? Don't do it. It's very simple really.

partyguinness

Andreas77 wrote: »

Before I met ex-wife I organised with about thirty women for sex through old-fashioned classifieds (paper magazine). Activities involved doggy style, deep throat, ass-to-mouth, scooping, doctor/nurse roleplay, sex in multi-storey carpark, natural history museum, sex toys, dilation, ass play, mutual masturbation, double edge dildos. Typically these women were between thirty five and forty five, many attractive, a few grizzled ones. I was in mid twenties and never before I had seen so many shaking booties and boobies and toys except in the movies.

The natural history museum? you sick bastard.

Ironicname

dvdman1 wrote:

We live in a collective...its called society, what 1 does can have a knock on affect to others. So are you going to encourage career guidance to list prostitution as a job for potential pupils?

Why would he do that?

Hotblack Desiato

Ironicname wrote: »

Why would he do that?

Never mind, it's just one of the many stupid arguments they use because they don't have any better ones.

dvdman1

Ironicname wrote: »

Why would he do that?

My point is the slow decline of any sort of morals as a society at whole...maybe in the future, a career guidance might suggest that!... and under Irelands slow declining path they may very well get away with encouraging this.

In this "personal choice decides everything" society, sure we'll have Drs suggesting Euthanasia of the old parents who cant talk, get your inheritance quicker yeee.

So many choices isn't life wonderful were all so grown up and adult like.

dvdman1

dvdman1 wrote: »

My point is the slow decline of any sort of morals as a society at whole...maybe in the future, a career guidance might suggest that!... and under Irelands slow declining path they may very well get away with encouraging this.

In this "personal choice decides everything" society, sure we'll have Drs suggesting Euthanasia of the old parents who cant talk, get your inheritance quicker yeee.

So many choices isn't life wonderful were all so grown up and adult like.

I wouldn't encourage a Career Guidance Councillor to promote prostitution. Why would I? I don't encourage them to promote Abortion Doctor, I don't encourage them to promote distiller, I don't encourage them to promote anything!

What a ridiculous assumption to make.

Euthanasia is an interesting one.

With proper legislation (that I am unsure of what would fully constitute as "proper) I think I would be in favour of it.

What level of freedom do you think you should have on your own body (once it doesn't hurt someone else)?

dvdman1

dvdman1 wrote: »

My point is the slow decline of any sort of morals as a society at whole.

I think your point suggests that you think there is a slow decline of YOUR morals rather than any sort of morals.

GirlOnFire100

Many have deep emotional messed up issues or just straight up tarts. Realising they can make decent money by opening their legs.[/QUOTE]


If you think being a sex worker means just open your legs, u know nothing about this job, and most probably you are a woman. I will not be surprised if your husband cheats you if u think it is all about just open the legs )) Guys visit girls for many many reasons, and not all are related with open their legs. Some have fantasies they cant talk/discuss with their wifes like strap on, fisting, role-plays where you boss them around, some like to be teased, touched and need a bit of attention they don't get home , some young lads are shy and need a company of a woman and someone to make their feel good about themselves and gain confidence , there are so many reasons which of course u cant know form outside. Don't pretend u are expert in things u never has done it or came across before. If your opinion is based only on newspapers articles, then let me tell u: u are far from the truth. Media is a great tool to control people minds and brainwashed them. Many of us, sex workers chose willingly to do this job, and why not? U have freedom, u have money, u meet people, u explore fantasies, what's wrong with that?

dvdman1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I think your point suggests that you think there is a slow decline of YOUR morals rather than any sort of morals.

Says the sex paying euthanasiast lol

dvdman1

dvdman1 wrote: »

Says the sex paying euthanasiast lol

In favour of:

• Legalising prostitution to minimise the negative effects of the sex trade on both the prostitute and their clients.
  
• Legalising euthanasia in certain cases to minimise suffering

Sounds absolutely appalling. I should be ashamed of myself.

Really?

Grow up and perhaps use your words to get your point across rather than childish jibes.

dvdman1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Really? That's what you have gotten from my posts on this?

Grow up and perhaps use your words to get your point across rather than childish jibes.

You agree in principle on both prostitution and euthanasia being legal...why wouldn't you act on these principles you believe in?
A real case of closet curb crawler.

Biodegradable

tea and coffee wrote: »

I really couldn't begin to equate sex with food, water and shelter on a hierarchy of needs....

But porn? Do they say 40% of the internet is porn?

Biodegradable

KaneToad wrote: »

The danger is that those selling are not doing so freely.

escortsirelnad?

dvdman1

dvdman1 wrote: »

You agree in principle on both prostitution and euthanasia being legal...why wouldn't you act on these principles you believe in?
A real case of closet curb crawler.

I agree with lots of things being legal. Some of which I partake in, some of which I don't. Do you get married to people of the same sex and then use abortion services regularly? If not, do you think they should be illegal?

Feisar

Andreas77 wrote: »

Before I met ex-wife I organised with about thirty women for sex through old-fashioned classifieds (paper magazine). Activities involved doggy style, deep throat, ass-to-mouth, scooping, doctor/nurse roleplay, sex in multi-storey carpark, natural history museum, sex toys, dilation, ass play, mutual masturbation, double edge dildos. Typically these women were between thirty five and forty five, many attractive, a few grizzled ones. I was in mid twenties and never before I had seen so many shaking booties and boobies and toys except in the movies.

What’s scooping??!

EmmetSpiceland

Feisar wrote: »

What’s scooping??!

I believe, if I’m not mistaken, it’s an old Eastern European “act” involving household items, such as scoops, used to look into female “parts”.