The 2019-20 Emirates FA Cup

Shanotheslayer

Claiming Gbamin as a regular strater having barely ever featured due to injury is absolutely straw clutching.

21 years since Everton won at Anfield. Jaysus. The goalscorer today, Jones, wasn't even born

eigrod

6 wrote: »

Great to beat Everton with the kids. Same next round please

Plymouth 3 years ago was the last time we drew a team outside the Premier League. Wolves twice, Everton twice and West Brom since. Due a handy one.

Mr.Nice Guy

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Claiming Gbamin as a regular strater having barely ever featured due to injury is absolutely straw clutching.

Gbamin was signed to be the replacement for Gueye. If you think Everton have a first-choice DM at the minute then you are the one straw clutching.

TitianGerm

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Gbamin was signed to be the replacement for Gueye. If you think Everton have a first-choice DM at the minute then you are the one straw clutching.

I'd say he knows well what Everton have and have not got seeing as he supports them.

Mr.Nice Guy

TitianGerm wrote: »

I'd say he knows well what Everton have and have not got seeing as he supports them.

One shouldn't assume a fan has greater knowledge of a club simply by virtue of being a supporter.

Shanotheslayer

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Gbamin was signed to be the replacement for Gueye. If you think Everton have a first-choice DM at the minute then you are the one straw clutching.

Your right he was. But you have no idea if he would be starting now. Which is my point.

Especially with new manager etc.

Dcully

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

In what way is he past it and a shadow of his former self? By virtue of being sacked from a job? By that measurement, almost all coaches in the game are past it given the rate of dismissals. Don't think you really believe what you're saying.

Ofcourse i believe what im saying.
Winning leagues and European Cubs to now is a shadow of his former self.
If he was of similar stock as back then do you really think he would be at Everton?

Sacked by Chelsea, asked to leave PSG but many reported he would have been sacked anyways, sacked by Real Madrid,sacked by Bayern, sacked by Napoli.
Id call that well past it.


Still decent and will probably do a decent job at Everton but he is not anything near what he once was.

Mr.Nice Guy

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Your right he was. But you have no idea if he would be starting now. Which is my point.

Especially with new manager etc.

Come on now, he wasn't signed for £25m this summer to be a bench warmer. The fact he is on the injury list means by definition Everton aren't at full strength, which was the original point. We've no idea if Gomes would be starting either if we're going to go down this pedantic route.

Dcully wrote:

Ofcourse i believe what im saying.
Winning leagues and European Cubs to now is a shadow of his former self.
If he was of similar stock as back then do you really think he would be at Everton?

Sacked by Chelsea, asked to leave PSG but many reported he would have been sacked anyways, sacked by Real Madrid,sacked by Bayern, sacked by Napoli.
Id call that well past it.


Still decent and will probably do a decent job at Everton but he is not anything near what he once was.

He's at Everton because money. Do you think Rafa Benitez is a shadow of his former self because he's now in China?

As for being sacked by big clubs, again that's what tends to happen to 99% of elite managers at some stage. Benitez has a similar track record of clubs. Again, is he past it?

Talk of being 'past it' is silly when this is a sport where Ranieri went from flopping at Greece to being a Premier League champion. Where Brendan Rodgers went from being a meme who had to stay in Scotland, to being hyped up as the next big thing.

I've been doing a thread the last two years, Last Manager Standing, with the idea being you write down the 20 coaches you think are the best in the game at that precise moment, and then check back a year later. Often what one finds is that a sizeable chunk of the names have been sacked. This sport is crazy with the managerial turnaround and talk of a coach being done tends to be premature. Ancelotti is a brilliant mind. If Hodgson can do well in the Premier League at his age, why can't a younger, more qualified Ancelotti?

Dcully

Come on he is not anywhere near the level he once was, stop kidding yourself.

If Hodgson can do well in the Premier League at his age, why can't a younger, more qualified Ancelotti?

He can do well in the PL , ive said that already.
Thats a might lofty fall though dont you think?
So yeah hes well past it imho, lets agree to disagree :P

Mr.Nice Guy

Dcully wrote: »

Come on he is not anywhere near the level he once was, stop kidding yourself.



He can do well in the PL , ive said that already.
Thats a might lofty fall though dont you think?
So yeah hes well past it imho, lets agree to disagree :P

I watched a good bit of his Napoli side this season and felt they just didn't get the breaks. The performances in the CL tell me that there was potential to turn it around had he stayed. Fair enough though, looks like we're not going to get anywhere on this. I believe in Carlo.

MD1990

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Gbamin and Iwobi were missing through injury so not a full team out. Delph didn't start either. And the likes of Adrian, Gomez, Milner, Lallana, Oxlade-Chamberlain and Origi have all featured in big games and acquitted themselves well. The match was decided ultimately by a wonder strike.

Milner played 10 mins. Ox 20.

3 players making there debut for Liverpool as well as Jones,Chivravela & Elliott having no experience.

Embarrasing from Everton who deserved to lose.

Harry Palmr

Rooney looks like a fisherman.

Harry Palmr

Can the FA Cup be saved from death by indifference?

It feels as if every club that could win it has other concerns at this time of year - the Championship is mad competitive with half a division still in with a chance of promotion and the other half fearing League One, the Prem likewise is obsessed with survival, the chance of European football and as things stand hardly any teams likely to be safe but also with no Euro ambition. Meanwhile the sheer number of distractions on and off the pitch over the Christmas period means by early January people are either tired or poor to go shlepping a distance to sit in the muck to watch a second or third string side get beaten. Some of the attendances were dismal even if the big PL sides at home have attracted a 80% plus number.

Sheffield United 2 - 1 AFC Fylde 11,000
Queens Park Rangers 5 - 1 Swansea City 5,700
Crystal Palace 0 - 1 Derby County 15,700
Charlton Athletic 0 - 1 West Bromwich Albion 6,700
Cardiff City 2 - 2 Carlisle United 5,200
Burnley 4 - 2 Peterborough United 8,000
Birmingham City 2 - 1 Blackburn Rovers 7,200

and plenty more like this further down the chain.

Tom Mann Centuria

Still huge for League Two teams. If Carlisle lose their replay to Cardiff, Northampton are guaranteed £250,000 win lose or draw next round. The FA will give that to each league club who goes the furthest in their division. Cobblers and Carlisle the last league two teams standing.

You'd hope they might get a televised game too, which is more money, then when we've beaten Liverpool at Anfield again it'll be exciting to see who we get next.

Johnny Sausage

eigrod wrote: »

Plymouth 3 years ago was the last time we drew a team outside the Premier League. Wolves twice, Everton twice and West Brom since. Due a handy one.

Wolves were in the championship for the first game FYI

LuckyLloyd

The only way it could be saved at this point is if a Champions League spot was awarded to the winner.

Utd’s decision to pull out 20 years ago is a landmark moment where you can split out the shift in attitudes to the cup, but we would have reached this point anyway. Fundamentally the FA Cup is not worth prioritising over league success unless you’re a mid table league one / league two side. It doesn’t have the tv revenue and it doesn’t move the conversation significantly for managers / clubs who miss out on league / European objectives.

Alternatively English football could organise a Christmas / winter break over a two week period and bang out the first two / three rounds with extra time and penos to give it a tournament style feel.

MD1990

League Cup feels like bonus football in some midweeks & it is good to see some of the young players.

FA Cup on weekends should go.
Would be better on midweeks,no replays, like the league cup.

I do think that when a lower league team faces a team higher they should receive all of the money from gate receipts though.

citytillidie

Could you think of Wigan when they won it and got relegated then playing in the champions league, that would not work and what happens if England lose the 4th spot?

citytillidie

MD1990 wrote: »

League Cup feels like bonus football in some midweeks & it is good to see some of the young players.

FA Cup on weekends should go.
Would be better on midweeks,no replays, like the league cup.

I do think that when a lower league team faces a team higher they should receive all of the money from gate receipts though.

5th round is mid week this year

Fitz*

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

Still huge for League Two teams. If Carlisle lose their replay to Cardiff, Northampton are guaranteed £250,000 win lose or draw next round. The FA will give that to each league club who goes the furthest in their division. Cobblers and Carlisle the last league two teams standing.

You'd hope they might get a televised game too, which is more money, then when we've beaten Liverpool at Anfield again it'll be exciting to see who we get next.

There is also the halving of the gate receipts too, so the smaller clubs sometimes just want the big away tie to a PL side, rather than a home tie against a similarly ranked team.

MD1990 wrote: »

I do think that when a lower league team faces a team higher they should receive all of the money from gate receipts though.

Did a PL team give the whole gate receipt to a struggling club in the last couple years? I can't remember who, but I think someone might have done something like that in previous years.

LuckyLloyd

citytillidie wrote: »

Could you think of Wigan when they won it and got relegated then playing in the champions league, that would not work and what happens if England lose the 4th spot?

I’m not saying it’s a good idea but that is what would be required to return the cup to its former status. If a CL place was on offer all the big premier league teams would be prioritising the early rounds. The games where premier league sides were drawn against each other would be massive games again. Upsets would return their meaning, etc.

ArmaniJeanss

Awarding a CL place to FA Cup winner can't be done as it's against the CL rules which state all places must be allocated from the domestic league.
So as a talking point, it's kinda not worth wasting too much time on.

Fitz*

I've only just learned that in the FA Trophy, once both clubs agree in advance, that the game can be decided either via a penalty shoot out or a replay. I wonder if that is an option for the FA Cup also?

LuckyLloyd

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Awarding a CL place to FA Cup winner can't be done as it's against the CL rules which state all places must be allocated from the domestic league.
So as a talking point, it's kinda not worth wasting too much time on.

I’m sure the FA could request an exemption, if they wished. And agree caveats around it, etc.

It’s never going to happen though, I agree. But that’s the silver bullet that would be required to return the Cup to its former glory or whatever.

So long as that isn’t happening replays and pride of place on the calendar should be done away with. ET / pens for all ties and midweek fixtures through the quarter finals is a good idea imo. Time to meet this competition where it is in terms of fan interest and club prioritisation. The status quo only serves to highlight how far it has fallen.

Harry Palmr

Draw on BBC Two at 7 PM (well 20 past probably)

1 Leicester City
2 Queens Park Rangers
3 Fulham
4 Chelsea
5 Wolves / Man Utd
6 West Bromwich Albion
7 Rochdale / Newcastle United
8 Cardiff City / Carlisle United
9 Oxford United
10 Sheffield United
11 Southampton
12 Liverpool
13 Bristol City / Shrewsbury Town
14 AFC Bournemouth
15 Sheffield Wednesday
16 Bristol Rovers / Coventry City
17 Barnsley
18 Man City
19 Middlesbrough / Tottenham Hotspur
20 Reading / Blackpool
21 Watford / Tranmere Rovers
22 Norwich City
23 Millwall
24 Derby County
25 Hull City
26 Brentford
27 Portsmouth
28 Arsenal / Leeds United
29 West Ham United
30 Northampton Town
31 Burnley
32 Birmingham City

Martin Tyler AgueroooOO

I will be interested to see if Arsenal take the game seriously tonight my feeling is they should and play a full strength team. The more Ozil, Pepe, Lacazette and Aubameyang play together and get a feel for each other I think Arsenal have a chance of out scoring any team. They could do a Liverpool under Brendan Rodgers forget about defending and just try and score more.

joe_99

citytillidie wrote: »

what happens if England lose the 4th spot?

4 places is locked in. Uefa did a deal with big leagues to guarantee them spots. Italy got increased from 3 to 4 and qualifiers removed.

citytillidie

joe_99 wrote: »

4 places is locked in. Uefa did a deal with big leagues to guarantee them spots. Italy got increased from 3 to 4 and qualifiers removed.

Yea a deal for the top 4 leagues to not have to go into the qualifiers, if you drop out of the top 4 leagues, start giving CL spots to FA Cup winners could see England's coefficients could take a hit.

It could take a while with England being 30 points ahead of France but if they drop out of the top 4 leagues they will lose a CL place.

.G.

Nothing can save the FA cup mainly because it doesn't pay enough to its winners to be arsed enough about it. It was put well here the other day, can't remember by who, clubs in the premier league are only concerned with staying in it or qualifying for Europe or winning it and those not in it are preoccupied with getting in it.

Maybe if the mental English schedule was ever changed and the amount of games lessened too than clubs might be more willing to throw their best players at it.

The league cup needs binning off altogether unless they embrace the fact its basically a reserves/u23s tournament these days.

Agent Coulson

As someone said on one of the pods over the last few days the Premier League clubs can decide the schedule however they want the money from the Premier League and all the clubs are partners in the Premier League and can vote to change the schedule yet they don't because they want the money this schedule brings them.

BullBlackNova

.G. wrote: »

Nothing can save the FA cup mainly because it doesn't pay enough to its winners to be arsed enough about it. It was put well here the other day, can't remember by who, clubs in the premier league are only concerned with staying in it or qualifying for Europe or winning it and those not in it are preoccupied with getting in it.

Maybe if the mental English schedule was ever changed and the amount of games lessened too than clubs might be more willing to throw their best players at it.

The league cup needs binning off altogether unless they embrace the fact its basically a reserves/u23s tournament these days.

I think this is a big part of it - the Christmas schedule is so intense that clubs have to prioritise certain games. The FA Cup 3rd Round represents, for most of those clubs, the least important of those games and, as such, brings about huge rotation. This means lots of teams get knocked out early and care less as the years go by.

Reduce the Christmas schedule, or change the timing of the cup 3rd round, and that might look a bit different I think.

There is a suggestion further up (I forgot to quote!) to give the winner a CL spot to make teams care. I don't know if this would actually achieve that - look at teams who are in the Europa League and, in many cases, they just don't care until the quarter-final stage or so. It's heavy rotation, etc because even with the big prize on offer, it's an outside chance early on.

That would be the same for the FA Cup IMO - sure, plenty of teams might want to win it to qualify for the CL but those who qualify through the league tend to dominate the cup anyway and, as such, it's an outside bet anyway for other league sides.

Since the year 2000, there has been what, 2 winners who haven't qualified for the Champions League that season? I may be omitting one or two there (I can't remember where Arsenal finished in 2016!) but you get the gist; it's a rarity. I'm not sure that would change drastically - the QFs and SFs might attract one or two more lower sides but, overally, I reckon the winners would still largely come from the group comprising Chelsea, City, etc.

A question I have that is not meant as a slight to fans of any clubs... Since 05/06 when Liverpool beat West Ham, only one final has been won by either Man United or Liverpool, the typically largest supported clubs. In the UK, there was a general decline in interest in the Champions League as these clubs failed to qualify (it was blamed on money or the fact that it wasn't on free-to-air but it's no coincidence that interest grew again with Liverpool's runs in the last two campaigns in terms of media coverage). I wonder is that half the issue - I don't think it's quite as clear cut as Arsenal have done well and they are very well supported in the UK but as the new money sides (Chelsea and City) dominate with smaller fanbases (to start with; this could change!), is there lower viewership, fewer clicks, etc and, as such, a perception of declining interest?

Harry Palmr

The League Cup need to be sacrificed. Use early season League Cup and International dates to get the preliminary rounds dealt with in quick order then split the later main rounds schedule in two - third/forth rounds in November-early December with the third, quarters, semi and final from late February onwards

citytillidie

Harry Palmr wrote: »

The League Cup need to be sacrificed. Use early season League Cup and International dates to get the preliminary rounds dealt with in quick order then split the later main rounds schedule in two - third/forth rounds in November-early December with the third, quarters, semi and final from late February onwards

You do know the FA Cup starts right at the start of the season on August 10th?

Harry Palmr

That why the League Cup and International dates will also be used along with the existing FA Cup prelim dates. Obviously there would be no replays. 27 August was a League Cup day this season - so use it as a FA Cup date next season, 24 September likewise and so on. With a bit of work it could be done.

LuckyLloyd

Well I just looked through some history there and for some reason I had forgotten entirely that Liverpool made the semi finals in 2015! Whereas I could recount the outcome of every European competition Liverpool have been involved in the last 20 years. I also had patchy recollection of FA Cup performance under Klopp. Clearly, this Liverpool fan no longer cares.

Probably true for me since we made the final in 2012 and it didn't move the conversation at all on Dalglish. I concede 8 years later that the Cup indeed does not matter.

citytillidie

Dates in this seasons FA Cup

10th August, 24th August, 7th September, 21st September, 5th October, 19th October for rounds before 1st proper round

1st Round 8th November, 2nd Round 29th November, 3rd Round 3rd January, 4th Round 24th January, 5th Round 4th March, QF 21st March, SF 18th April and Final 23rd May

Fitz*

There is no need to get rid of the entire League Cup, top PL clubs actually use it and want to keep using it as it is a great competition to give their younger players games. The only changes needed to it is to get rid of the 2nd leg of the semi final. It frees up another midweek.

Leave the FA Cup as it is, but change when it is played. Move all games to midweek. This frees up another 2 or 3 weekends that the PL can now play games in. Move the Dec 28th PL game to the January 3rd weekend and ease the burden on the players around Christmas time. This fixture pile up is the primary source of why teams make massive changes to their FA Cup teams. There is a midweek fixture in for end of January in the PL so move that to the FA Cup weekend also. That is just 2 swaps of FA Cup & League weekends, and pretty close together also.

In addition to the 1 that was freed up midweek with the removing of the 2nd leg of the League Cup, this leaves 3 midweeks where teams can play in the FA Cup. But the key part is the Christmas fixture build up is removed, so players have an extra few days rest during it, if the FA Cup games are played weeks later after some rest, they are more likely to play.

LuckyLloyd

citytillidie, as a man who follows the FA Cup as closely as anyone here, what would you change, if anything?

.G.

There's too many rounds then,need to reduce them, particularly the prelim rounds. Would obviously have to reduce the number of clubs allowed to enter it as a result. Bin the League cup, the football league will object to this since its their comp, reduce the number of rounds for the FA cup and start the proper rounds much earlier, get rid of replays too. If a big club is drawn against a lesser club, give the lesser club the choice on where to play the game, home if they want a romance of the cup chance to bin a big club at home or away if they want a big pay day.

The Premier league hold games on FA cup weekends has also lessened its appeal over the years, clubs that go out early use those weekends to play league games if they can.

loyatemu

seed the draw with the lower ranked club getting home advantage. No replays.

it's always going to be problem that most of the clubs involved at this stage have more important league concerns but the above would at least ensure some interesting ties and guarantee attending fans would see a result.

Agent Coulson

I like the idea that has been spoken about over the weekend.

The Retro FA Cup.

All team swear Retro Jerseys and sell them to make money all games end after 90 minutes then penalties if the end in a draw no extra time.

Teams get bigger % prize money if it goes to penalties and they are knocked out.

Tom Mann Centuria

.G. wrote: »

There's too many rounds then,need to reduce them, particularly the prelim rounds. Would obviously have to reduce the number of clubs allowed to enter it as a result. Bin the League cup, the football league will object to this since its their comp, reduce the number of rounds for the FA cup and start the proper rounds much earlier, get rid of replays too. If a big club is drawn against a lesser club, give the lesser club the choice on where to play the game, home if they want a romance of the cup chance to bin a big club at home or away if they want a big pay day.

Such a wonderful Premier league centric view. Fcuk the rest of football because we're tired. Fcuk the non league players that pay their subs every week and turn up and train, and play numerous preliminary rounds for the joy and love of the game, in the mostly vain hope they'll make the first round proper.

Or fcuk the lower football league clubs who don't really care if Liverpool or whoever put out a second string team in the league cup, they'll still take thousands to Anfield and a win still lives long in their history, they don't care who played that day. The record shows, that once, Northampton went to Anfield and beat Liverpool in the League Cup.

Nah, fcuk your suggestions.

/triggered. :pac:

BullBlackNova

.G. wrote: »

There's too many rounds then,need to reduce them, particularly the prelim rounds. Would obviously have to reduce the number of clubs allowed to enter it as a result. Bin the League cup, the football league will object to this since its their comp, reduce the number of rounds for the FA cup and start the proper rounds much earlier, get rid of replays too. If a big club is drawn against a lesser club, give the lesser club the choice on where to play the game, home if they want a romance of the cup chance to bin a big club at home or away if they want a big pay day.

The Premier league hold games on FA cup weekends has also lessened its appeal over the years, clubs that go out early use those weekends to play league games if they can.

Absolutely no chance of that happening anyway.

We're all coming at this from the perspective of fans of a big club but the whole point of the FA Cup is that every team can enter it.

We - myself included - have been criticising a competition for being too congested, at the wrong time of year, etc at a stage when it is whittled down to 64 teams.

There were 736 places in the competition this year. If the FA were to reduce those and block access, they may as well scrap the thing altogether as there'd be no difference between it and the League Cup.

Zaph

They could introduce a rule that replays are only permitted where there's a gap of two divisions or more between the teams, otherwise it's straight to penalties. The FA Cup is hugely important to the finances of lower league teams, and to deprive them of potential money-spinning games against bigger opposition is only going to widen the gap between the haves and have-nots in English football. In some cases the money from the FA Cup has literally been responsible for saving clubs, and do we want to see more clubs go the way of Bury? I appreciate that it's an inconvenience for the top clubs who are also involved in Europe, but they should have enough strength in depth that such replays would be a rarity for them anyway.

.G.

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

Such a wonderful Premier league centric view. Fcuk the rest of football because we're tired. Fcuk the non league players that pay their subs every week and turn up and train, and play numerous preliminary rounds for the joy and love of the game, in the mostly vain hope they'll make the first round proper.

Or fcuk the lower football league clubs who don't really care if Liverpool or whoever put out a second string team in the league cup, they'll still take thousands to Anfield and a win still lives long in their history, they don't care who played that day. The record shows, that once, Northampton went to Anfield and beat Liverpool in the League Cup.

Nah, fcuk your suggestions.

/triggered. :pac:

All of this is true but you're not "saving the cup" without keeping the big teams interested in it. Like it or not, nobody bar the small clubs and their fans and players are arsed about it, thats why it needs "saving"

.G.

Jamie Carragher's views

1) Scrap replays, go straight to pens.
2) PL clubs give higher % of gate receipts & tv income when playing clubs from EFL.
3) Use 1 of the midweeks for replays to play full PL fixture list & lose the PL game on 28th Dec.
4)Carabao Cup have 1 semi at the club that’s drawn out 1st.

Harry Palmr

loyatemu wrote: »

seed the draw with the lower ranked club getting home advantage. No replays.

it's always going to be problem that most of the clubs involved at this stage have more important league concerns but the above would at least ensure some interesting ties and guarantee attending fans would see a result.

The lower league side should be given the choice - home advantage/ likely cupset on TV or away and bag half the gate money (less likely TV coverage and if so on BT not BBC).

Third round money last season was £150,000 per team from the BBC, overseas income was 50,000 per club (BT paid £50k). A sliding scale could be developed to give the advantage to the lower league or smaller capacity club. So Rotherham v Liverpool 100% to Rotherham, AFC Wimbledon v Swansea 70% to the real Dons and so on.

citytillidie

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

citytillidie, as a man who follows the FA Cup as closely as anyone here, what would you change, if anything?

Since they FA want as many teams to take part I would break it down to regional for the prelims.

There is not much that you can do to it. The FA and Football league need to come together about scrapping the League Cup or change that to exclude teams in Europe for that season. Move the semi-finals of the league cup to 1 leg.

FA Cup scrap replays, move the semi-finals out of Wembley.

After draws are done give the lower leagued team the chance if they wish to host the game or play away getting all gate receipts.

There is not much you can do with it domestic cup competitions are falling away as there is just too much football.

Back in the day the FA Cup was big to us all as it was one of the few games live on TV with grandstand doing a full days tv coverage

.G.

Good ideas there, its a shame, I used to love it. Now can't be arsed. The league cup does need to go. France apparently binning theirs after this season because they couldn't get a TV deal for it, English one has a TV deal until 2025 though so not much hope of that going anywhere yet.