39 people found dead in trailer in UK

yourdeadwright

easypazz wrote: »

To clear the matter up can somebody post a link to the relevant EU law as claimed by a poster earlier.

It currently EU law for container traveling by sea to be sealed

Does it matter , just part of a pissing context,
The truth will come out in the next few days anyway f the driver was involved or not

ZiabR

Deleted User wrote: »

It would not cost a lot to install a camera in the container which the driver can see from his dashboard. It would surely cut a lot of this stuff out.

Not if they are asleep.

TheBoyConor

Would not work at all. Containers and tractor units are constantly changing. A tractor unit might pull a container for a day and never pull it again. It might never even return to the country. So a fixed camera won't work.
And you can't use a removable camera because you can't have drivers opening containers and fitting them because they will break the seals and put cargo at risk..

It's just unworkable.

Deterrents for migrants is all that will work.

MrMusician18

Esse85 wrote: »

Because UK authorities would know these people are in the country then, would have passport details etc and would be on the lookout to send them back when caught.

That doesn't make sense. If someone is found without papers they will be flagged anyway.

The reason they don't holiday and overstay is because they can't get visas. The UK government is not going to issue a visa to a young goat shepherd that can't show a reason why he wants to visit, or ties to home.

MrMusician18

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Would not work at all. Containers and tractor units are constantly changing. A tractor unit might pull a container for a day and never pull it again. It might never even return to the country. So a fixed camera won't work.
And you can't use a removable camera because you can't have drivers opening containers and fitting them because they will break the seals and put cargo at risk..

It's just unworkable.



Deterrents for migrants is all that will work.

It's not cameras that are generally used to detect stowaways, it's CO2 sensors.

ohnonotgmail

MrMusician18 wrote: »

That doesn't make sense. If someone is found without papers they will be flagged anyway.

The reason they don't holiday and overstay is because they can't get visas. The UK government is not going to issue a visa to a young goat shepherd that can't show a reason why he wants to visit, or ties to home.

this is true but they cannot remove somebody until they have papers for them. that can take a long time. in the meantime they release them on bail and they are never seen again.

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

It would not cost a lot to install a camera in the container which the driver can see from his dashboard. It would surely cut a lot of this stuff out.

Not feasible with that type of work were it's a different trailer every job. And a driver may have to leave his trailer anyhow.

BorneTobyWilde

Sky now giving an account,
Cab of Truck left Ireland, Dublin to Holyhead on Sunday
By Tuesday cab of Truck arrived in Essex
Trailer arrived in Belgium port Tuesday 3pm and left by sea same day
Arrived Tuesday night, although after midnight 12.30am so Wednesday Morning
Cab of Truck picked it up straight away at 1.05 am
Arrived at industrial part at 1.40 am


Didn't say whether truck done anything else. If he came all that way to move a trailer a few mile
it's weird.

vicwatson

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Sky now giving an account,
Cab of Truck left Ireland, Dublin to Holyhead on Sunday
By Tuesday cab of Truck arrived in Essex
Trailer arrived in Belgium port Tuesday 3pm and left by sea same day
Arrived Tuesday night, although after midnight 12.30am so Wednesday Morning
Cab of Truck picked it up straight away at 1.05 am
Arrived at industrial part at 1.40 am


Didn't say whether truck done anything else. If he came all that way to move a trailer a few mile
it's weird.

He might be shunting for a week or two, no one is saying he went from Ireland just to move this reefer unit. (Or maybe he did if he’s involved)

vicwatson

easypazz wrote: »

To clear the matter up can somebody post a link to the relevant EU law as claimed by a poster earlier.

It currently EU law for container traveling by sea to be sealed

Not to be pedantic but this wasn’t a container, its a refrigerated trailer.

knipex

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Under international law, all shipping containers moved internationally must be sealed by an ISO17712 and CT-PAT approved security barrier , I'm not going looking up pages and pages of EU law for you ,


This load was internationally shipped Belgium to England,


I know they check every continuer brought back to Dublin port for international shipping for a seal and if there is no seal they will pout one on it , Obviously there is human error where one is missed,

BUT is inter EU shipping (Ireland - France, Ireland - UK, UK - Belgium) classed as international shipping ?

Isn't the EU a customs free single market ?

TheBoyConor

And why did the driver open the doors where he did?
What reason would a driver have to open the doors when the lorru is just pulled into the side of the road as shown in those photos?
A driver world never really have any reason to open the container or trailer unless at the final destination.

It appears to me that he was opening it to let them out of it but then saw that they were all frozen dead . That would suggest his complicity in the affair .

However, he then called the cops. If he had known about the whole thing and was involved then why report it to police on the spot, incriminating himself. If I was a driver complicit in trafficking and I discovered that my passengers had all died I wouldn't be ringing the police. I'd keep going, talk to my contacts and try to figure out a way of getting rid. Maybe he panicked and phoned police. Maybe he knew but is playing the innocent.

Why did he open the trailer randomly on the side of the road. That is strange. And that is something I think incriminates him.

McMurphy

Something that needs to be clarified, and I don't know if has already been or not. But did the tractor unit travel from Armagh to Dublin, on to Holyhead - Essex with a load (so getting paid) or did he travel there unloaded (as a unit with no trailer) so unpaid?

Seems a long period of time between getting to Essex and leaving Dublin, so I'm going to presume he's being doing work in Britain here and there before getting to the container.

Would be unusual to travel all that way empty, though that isn't me implying it's suspicious - I'm still very much leaning towards this lad being a patsy for some other unknown.

FrancieBrady

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Something that needs to be clarified, and I don't know if has already been or not. But did the tractor unit travel from Armagh to Dublin, on to Holyhead - Essex with a load (so getting paid) or did he travel there unloaded (as a unit with no trailer) so unpaid?

Seems a long period of time between getting to Essex and leaving Dublin, so I'm going to presume he's being doing work in Britain here and there before getting to the container.

Would be unusual to travel all that way empty, though that isn't me implying it's suspicious - I'm still very much leaning towards this lad being a patsy for some other unknown.

Went as a cab unit seemingly. I'd imagine that is common enough in a trailer hire business though.

funkey_monkey

knipex wrote: »

BUT is inter EU shipping (Ireland - France, Ireland - UK, UK - Belgium) classed as international shipping ?

Isn't the EU a customs free single market ?

Not sure of the posters point, but if it an onward leg with the origin being outside of the EU then it might be classed as international shipping.

funkey_monkey

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Went as a cab unit seemingly. I'd imagine that is common enough in a trailer hire business though.

I'd find it odd. Usually planners/logistics would find something for him to take. Its an expensive trip if there is no money making on the outward leg.

FrancieBrady

funkey_monkey wrote: »

I'd find it odd. Usually planners/logistics would find something for him to take. Its an expensive trip if there is no money making on the outward leg.

Ordinarily yes...but they were not in the freight business per se.

Just my opinion, not based on anything.

easypazz

knipex wrote: »

BUT is inter EU shipping (Ireland - France, Ireland - UK, UK - Belgium) classed as international shipping ?

Isn't the EU a customs free single market ?

There is no EU law requiring containers going on a lorry from say Donegal to London via Dublin having to have a seal put on them when the same container could go via Belfast under EU law and not require a seal.

There is a 13km tunnel between France and Italy, if its necessary to put a seal on a container going on a ferry then the same law would apply there.

easypazz

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Went as a cab unit seemingly. I'd imagine that is common enough in a trailer hire business though.

That would be my thinking. His job could be positioning trailers between clients for the leasing company and not do work for any "regular" haulier.

sdanseo

TheBoyConor wrote: »

And why did the driver open the doors where he did?
What reason would a driver have to open the doors when the lorru is just pulled into the side of the road as shown in those photos?
A driver world never really have any reason to open the container or trailer unless at the final destination.

It appears to me that he was opening it to let them out of it but then saw that they were all frozen dead . That would suggest his complicity in the affair .

However, he then called the cops. If he had known about the whole thing and was involved then why report it to police on the spot, incriminating himself. If I was a driver complicit in trafficking and I discovered that my passengers had all died I wouldn't be ringing the police. I'd keep going, talk to my contacts and try to figure out a way of getting rid. Maybe he panicked and phoned police. Maybe he knew but is playing the innocent.

Why did he open the trailer randomly on the side of the road. That is strange. And that is something I think incriminates him.

It's entirely possible, and probably, that he was out of hours for the day. Generally speaking a driver can work for 15 hours maximum with 9 hours of driving included per day. The 15 hours is known as his spread, or card.

When the card is up, you stop. Doesn't matter where, especially in the UK where VOSA (vehicle operators enforcement) are like a modern Gestapo. They will fine hauliers hundreds of pounds with on the spot visa machines for being just a few minutes over.

As such drivers will park on hard shoulders, laybys, residential streets, and certainly quiet industrial estates to take their 11 hours required rest.

If a driver thinks something is up they will check the load because they would be responsible if they didn't. God forbid a body could have moved or fallen and made a noise, that would be enough. Some drivers can be very laxidasical but I've met many who are absolute perfectionists and if they could open a trailer and strap something down to secure it (in the absence of a seal), they would.

International journeys not involving customs and within the EU are carried under CMR conditions and are not always sealed - and there is no legal requirement to seal them unless travelling under bond. Is it good practice but not universally followed by any means. It is now quite apparent the journey did not originate in Bulgaria which makes the probability of goods under bond much lower - and a seal much less likely to have been required.

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Sky now giving an account,
Cab of Truck left Ireland, Dublin to Holyhead on Sunday
By Tuesday cab of Truck arrived in Essex
Trailer arrived in Belgium port Tuesday 3pm and left by sea same day
Arrived Tuesday night, although after midnight 12.30am so Wednesday Morning
Cab of Truck picked it up straight away at 1.05 am
Arrived at industrial part at 1.40 am


Didn't say whether truck done anything else. If he came all that way to move a trailer a few mile
it's weird.

The above is a very typical description of a driver's day. You are forgetting he took a load from Ireland to UK. He may not have had an immediate reload, and hung around to collect this trailer.

McMurphy

easypazz wrote: »

That would be my thinking. His job could be positioning trailers between clients for the leasing company and not do work for any "regular" haulier.

Doubtful, that would mean he would essentially be working as a shunter, and there's no doubt at all that it would be many many times cheaper to get a local haulier (owner driver or firm) to do such a job.

Still would be odd if the leasing firm didn't have clients needing something brought over on the outward journey, sending an unhitched tractor unit would be unusual, not unheard of, but unusual.

Anyway, this is all hypothetical at the present minute and time, I'm sure all details will emerge soon.

Ashleigh1986

Thought it was very low of sky tv to name the driver of artic last night .
The sun newspaper also named him .
I thought a man is .... " innocent until proven guilty "
Some of the British media have the man .... Hung / drawn and quartered .
In these instances people should not be named until all the evidence is gathered.
If he is innocent I hope he sues them for huge sums .

sdanseo

Ashleigh1986 wrote: »

Thought it was very low of sky tv to name the driver of artic last night .
The sun newspaper also named him .
I thought a man is .... " innocent until proven guilty "
Some of the British media have the man .... Hung / drawn and quartered .
In these instances people should not be named until all the evidence is gathered.
If he is innocent I hope he sues them for huge sums .

I'd feel the same way. Although if it was as cut and dry as several seem to think, there's no reason they would hold him so long. PACE (Police and Criminal Evidence Act) is a powerful tool for UK cops and allows them to search all his related properties but even still not sure why would they do that if there werent very good grounds, since every aspect of this is being hyperanalysed by the media.

armaghlad

TheBoyConor wrote: »

However, he then called the cops. If he had known about the whole thing and was involved then why report it to police on the spot, incriminating himself. If I was a driver complicit in trafficking and I discovered that my passengers had all died I wouldn't be ringing the police. I'd keep going, talk to my contacts and try to figure out a way of getting rid. Maybe he panicked and phoned police. Maybe he knew but is playing the innocent.

From what I can gather he didn’t phone the police. The ambulance crew phoned the police. That’s what raises my suspicions slightly. Surely when calling emergency services he’d have called for both?

paul71

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Under international law, all shipping containers moved internationally must be sealed by an ISO17712 and CT-PAT approved security barrier , I'm not going looking up pages and pages of EU law for you ,


This load was internationally shipped Belgium to England,


I know they check every continuer brought back to Dublin port for international shipping for a seal and if there is no seal they will pout one on it , Obviously there is human error where one is missed,

No the reason you are not looking it up is because you wont find it because there is no such law. The seals on containers moving within the EU are simply security seals to mitigate against the age old problem of theft in transit.

contrary_devil

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Tractor unit could have been in every country in the EU twenty times over since 2017.
Many transport companies set up offices in other countries to cut costs.
Annual motor tax on a truck was up to €5100 until a couple of years ago, and it was the mass exodus of trucks being registered abroad ( and the total loss of tax revenue) that forced the Govt to reduce annual motor tax to €900.

I would suggest you are incorrect, the road tax was reduced because of a case taken in the High Court by Perennial Freight.

skallywag

armaghlad wrote: »

From what I can gather he didn’t phone the police. The ambulance crew phoned the police. That’s what raises my suspicions slightly. Surely when calling emergency services he’d have called for both?

If I am calling the emergency services to say I have a container full of dead people then I would imagine it safe to assume that they are going to contact the police.

skallywag

Deleted User wrote: »

It would not cost a lot to install a camera in the container which the driver can see from his dashboard. It would surely cut a lot of this stuff out.

The containers are constantly changing. They are the big square yokes you see on massive cargo ships. Not trying to be condescending here, but I am not sure if you get that.

sdanseo

skallywag wrote: »

The containers are constantly changing. They are the big square yokes you see on massive cargo ships. Not trying to be condescending here, but I am not sure if you get that.

This was a trailer, not a container, and looks entirely different. It is fixed to its base with wheels, axles, a chassis, lights, air lines and brakes. Containers are literally a metal box. The media referring to it as a container are unambiguously wrong.

They do of course also constantly change, and installing cameras in them would require an equivalent system in every cab. Many haulage companies own far fewer tractor units than trailers and some own no tractor units at all, giving all the work to hauliers. it would need to become a European standard "thing" which would frankly take decades.

banie01

The level of deliberate misinformation circulating regarding the driver, his arrest and dependent upon the source either his release or continued detention is rampant.
People constantly reposting "All charges dropped and released" doesn't make it true.
Indeed at this point no charges have been lain afaik?
The driver is been questioned as a suspect yes, but that's a procedural matter.

I am minded to side with the continuing detention as reported by BBC a further 24hrs have been granted.
Not saying that the driver is a suspect, but certainly is a source of information as to the tractor movements and the opening of the trailer.