NBA Regular Season & Playoffs 2019-20 Thread

ButtersSuki

Didn’t see that coming. To be fair to Miami this is an incredible turnaround from the position they were in down 2-0 and without 2 of their 3 best players.

xgronkjabv6pcl

I'm guessing the narrative will become why didnt LBJ take the shot but really it was a very good pass to Green for a high percentage shot.
Whatever about the miss, they happen but not sure what Morris was doing with the rebound

Carcharodon

Walter Hissing Sandpaper wrote: »

I'm guessing the narrative will become why didnt LBJ take the shot but really it was a very good pass to Green for a high percentage shot.
Whatever about the miss, they happen but not sure what Morris was doing with the rebound

Yea, people will create their own narratives based on already formed opinions but that’s why Green was brought in, Miami didn’t want LeBron to beat them and he made the right pass to Green for a great look

I think the broader narrative should be, how god damn tough are Miami, there is a ton of fight in this dog, they will still most likely lose but considering the injuries they have had, this has been a great effort

xgronkjabv6pcl

Carcharodon wrote: »

I think the broader narrative should be, how god damn tough are Miami, there is a ton of fight in this dog, they will still most likely lose but considering the injuries they have had, this has been a great effort

Phenomenal effort and Spoe needs to be recognised as arguably the 2nd best coach in the NBA at this stage.

The ability for him to maximise the strengths of Robinson & Herro to become such threats against a defence as strong as the Lakers has been unbelievable.

He has used a concoction of various offences like those of GSW & Spurs to turn Herro & Robinsons pretty limited but specialist skillsets into very potent weapons.

As you say the Heat likely will lose but if this doesn't turn Giannis's head then nothing will. He strongly needs to consider an incoming offer from this Heat team.

That is your effective meeting with Pat Riley

ButtersSuki

Oh come on.

This is not Danny Green from the Spurs. He’s been very poor in the bubble. I’m too tired to look at the percentages but it’s been a running joke on one of the regular pods I listen to that “he’s never making a shot again”.

I’m not sure that would be the first pass option off a designed play. Also, why create that shot with so much time left? Even if he made it, Miami has a chance to tie.

So I have to assume the play broke down. It happens.

But, why isn’t LeBron taking that shot? You take that to the hole, hard. You either jump stop, fake, pivot etc to create your shot in the lane, or you create contact and go to the line, or you go to the hole.

He has a history of passing in these situations.

I await the hate.

Carcharodon

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Oh come on.

This is not Danny Green from the Spurs. He’s been very poor in the bubble. I’m too tired to look at the percentages but it’s been a running joke on one of the regular pods I listen to that “he’s never making a shot again”.

I’m not sure that would be the first pass option off a designed play. Also, why create that shot with so much time left? Even if he made it, Miami has a chance to tie.

So I have to assume the play broke down. It happens.

But, why isn’t LeBron taking that shot? You take that to the hole, hard. You either jump stop, fake, pivot etc to create your shot in the lane, or you create contact and go to the line, or you go to the hole.

He has a history of passing in these situations.

I await the hate.

You’re entitled to your opinion, I don’t personally buy into it too much, I believe if he kept on driving into that pack of heat players and took a difficult shot and missed, people would say he made another bad decision

It’s not like Greene is a bum, he already knocked down a few big shots in the game, he is a very experienced player, you can’t rely too much on stats & percentages in a game like this, especially in the final seconds

It’s was also just a fantastic game of basketball, LeBron was absolutely outstanding as was Butler, we can’t let one play over shadow that

The_Kew_Tour

In the 30 years I have supported the Heat this is my favourite team without doubt and that includes our Championship sides.

It's still asking too much I guess, but if only we had the 2 boys fit.........

Still live in hope no matter how small.

Sweet.Science

Jordan-esque from Butler in willing a team to win .

If ADs ankle is not right and Bam recovers even more in 48 hours things could get very interesting

I expect the Lakers to close it out in game 6 though . If they don't there is serious pressure on them in a game 7

xgronkjabv6pcl

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Oh come on.

This is not Danny Green from the Spurs. He’s been very poor in the bubble. I’m too tired to look at the percentages but it’s been a running joke on one of the regular pods I listen to that “he’s never making a shot again”.

I’m not sure that would be the first pass option off a designed play. Also, why create that shot with so much time left? Even if he made it, Miami has a chance to tie.

The Lakers were down not tied. Why run down the clock to take a shot whether 2 or 3 instead of taking a shot as quickly as possible?
Teams previously applied the logic you are suggesting but that is old-school logic and has been shown to be less advantageous than taking a quicker shot.

ButtersSuki wrote: »

So I have to assume the play broke down. It happens.

But, why isn’t LeBron taking that shot? You take that to the hole, hard. You either jump stop, fake, pivot etc to create your shot in the lane, or you create contact and go to the line, or you go to the hole.

He has a history of passing in these situations.

I await the hate.

No hate but you're simply wrong imo. It's the job of the best players to take the best decision for their team to win. When LBJ blows by Butler, Robinson helps(leaving Green open) and the 3rd play collapses to help, it's simply a higher percentage shot to kick to a 3pt specialist who shoots 40% for his career at the top.
He's not been spectacular this year but he shot almost 45% from deep last year for a title winning teams and he's only 32 years old.

Was Jordan slated for giving it up to Kerr in G6. One can comfortably argue that the shot presented to Jordan was a higher percentage shot than the one presented to LBJ.

Jordan passed but Kerr scored. You might recall Kerr was shooting 38% during that playoffs which was a bit less than his season average.

If Green made it, like Kerrmade it, this wouldn't even be a conversation. It's results bias, little more.

Sweet.Science

AD injury was non contact . Aggravating a contusion of the heel doesn't sound legit to me

ButtersSuki

Walter Hissing Sandpaper wrote: »

The Lakers were down not tied. Why run down the clock to take a shot whether 2 or 3 instead of taking a shot as quickly as possible?
Teams previously applied the logic you are suggesting but that is old-school logic and has been shown to be less advantageous than taking a quicker shot.



No hate but you're simply wrong imo. It's the job of the best players to take the best decision for their team to win. When LBJ blows by Butler, Robinson helps(leaving Green open) and the 3rd play collapses to help, it's simply a higher percentage shot to kick to a 3pt specialist who shoots 40% for his career at the top.
He's not been spectacular this year but he shot almost 45% from deep last year for a title winning teams and he's only 32 years old.

Was Jordan slated for giving it up to Kerr in G6. One can comfortably argue that the shot presented to Jordan was a higher percentage shot than the one presented to LBJ.

Jordan passed but Kerr scored. You might recall Kerr was shooting 38% during that playoffs which was a bit less than his season average.

If Green made it, like Kerrmade it, this wouldn't even be a conversation. It's results bias, little more.

Jordan passed to Kerr? I did not know that. Thanks for that. Insert roll eyes emoji here _____. Ffs.

I’ll reply later in full. Too tired.

LuckyLloyd

There’s no hate. You’re entitled to whatever opinions you like, no matter how stupid they might be. He gave a guy shooting 3 - 6 from 3 point range on the night a wide open look from the top of the key.

Butler was phenomenal, as was LeBron. A great ding dong battle all night. As noted above though, an immense coaching job by Spolestra all series.

Both teams expended a mass amount of energy so I wouldn’t consider Sunday a given either way.

xgronkjabv6pcl

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Jordan passed to Kerr? I did not know that. Thanks for that. Insert roll eyes emoji here _____. Ffs.

I’ll reply later in full. Too tired.

Too tired to reply in full but decided that an infantile response was required in the interim.

Just reply with your points like I did, the above is unnecessary and frankly quite childish.

That's the type of response that causes conversations and debates to descend into drivel as they immediately start the conversation in antagonistic manner.

As I said, just reply with a solid argument. Nothing else required.

ButtersSuki

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

There’s no hate. You’re entitled to whatever opinions you like, no matter how stupid they might be. He gave a guy shooting 3 - 6 from 3 point range on the night a wide open look from the top of the key.

Butler was phenomenal, as was LeBron. A great ding dong battle all night. As noted above though, an immense coaching job by Spolestra all series.

Both teams expended a mass amount of energy so I wouldn’t consider Sunday a given either way.

Ok...:rolleyes:

Gregk961

Once again I'll say it, the playoffs have been incredible this year. I was content enough with the finals being a walk over because the rest was exceptional, but the finals have turned out pretty damn good too.

xgronkjabv6pcl

ESPN, LBJ, Vogel wrote: »

With less than 10 seconds left and the Los Angeles Lakers trailing by one Friday, LeBron James appeared to be putting the final touches on a 40-point masterpiece to clinch his fourth NBA title. Draped by seemingly the entire Miami Heat defense, James, who led the league in assists for the first time in his career this season, whipped a pass to a wide-open Danny Green at the top of the key.

Green, a two-time champion and 40% career 3-point shooter whose nickname is "Deadshot" because of his reputation as a marksman, was signed by L.A. last offseason for moments such as this one: spacing the floor and capitalizing on James' ability to create shots.

Green let it fly with no defender within 8 feet of him, according to data from Second Spectrum. The ball clanked off the front rim with 7.1 seconds remaining, and Miami held on to win Game 5 111-108, drawing within 3-2 of the Lakers in the NBA Finals.

"I mean, if you just look at the play, I was able to draw two defenders below the free throw line and find one of our shooters at the top of the key for a wide-open 3 to win a championship," James said after finishing with a gaudy stat line of 15-for-21 shooting, 13 rebounds, 7 assists and 3 steals. "I trusted him, we trusted him, and it just didn't go.

"You live with that. You live with that. It's one of the best shots that we could have got. ... Danny had a helluva look. It just didn't go down. I know he wishes he can have it again."

Lakers coach Frank Vogel said James was "ready to take on [Miami's] whole team," but "he made the right play."

"Danny is one of our best shooters, he had a great look, and we live with the results," he said.

I've read a couple of other pieces and watched a few post game reactions. The general consensus seems to be that he made the right play.

The one thing that has been questioned is whether Green was the right player to take the shot. Personally I think yes but once put in that set, LBJ can't be blamed for it as he made the correct decision.

If anyone deserves the critique it's Vogel, similar to the critique for leaving Morris in.

ButtersSuki

Walter Hissing Sandpaper wrote: »

I've read a couple of other pieces and watched a few post game reactions. The general consensus seems to be that he made the right play.

The one thing that has been questioned is whether Green was the right player to take the shot. Personally I think yes but once put in that set, LBJ can't be blamed for it as he made the correct decision.

If anyone deserves the critique it's Vogel, similar to the critique for leaving Morris in.

Ah here. If you’re honest with yourself you know full well there is zero chance Vogel is going to publicly criticize LeBron even if he would prefer LeBron took the final shot.

xgronkjabv6pcl

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Ah here. If you’re honest with yourself you know full well there is zero chance Vogel is going to publicly criticize LeBron even if he would prefer LeBron took the final shot.

What are you talking about exactly? Vogels comments?? No coach criticises their player there, that's a given. Of course he prefers LBJ to take the shot all else equal but ultimately he wants the best shot to be taken
In this case the best shot was a pass to Green, that seems to be the consensus.

I simply referred to Vogel being in the firing line if anyone. LBJ shouldn't take the criticism and tbh I haven't read anything yet which suggest LBJ made the wrong decision to pass other than what you said. I'd be eager to read a decent opposing argument.

The criticism -if any- should be levelled at Vogel if Green was not the right choice to take the shot. Personally I feel he was the right choice but that is largely a separate debate.

The play was executed as planned by LBJ ergo little criticism should be thrown his way.

ButtersSuki

Walter Hissing Sandpaper wrote: »

What are you talking about exactly? Vogels comments?? No coach criticises their player there, that's a given. Of course he prefers LBJ to take the shot all else equal but ultimately he wants the best shot to be taken
In this case the best shot was a pass to Green, that seems to be the consensus.

I simply referred to Vogel being in the firing line if anyone. LBJ shouldn't take the criticism and tbh I haven't read anything yet which suggest LBJ made the wrong decision to pass other than what you said. I'd be eager to read a decent opposing argument.

The criticism -if any- should be levelled at Vogel if Green was not the right choice to take the shot. Personally I feel he was the right choice but that is largely a separate debate.

The play was executed as planned by LBJ ergo little criticism should be thrown his way.

Two words: David Blatt.

xgronkjabv6pcl

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Two words: David Blatt.

Ok so you have given an exception to the general rule, that doesn't mean it's not the general expectation that coaches don't criticise their players in such a scenario.
People remember such examples because they don't happen with regular frequency.

Are you going to present an argument to the original point regarding LBJ's decision which you felt was wrong?

ButtersSuki

Walter Hissing Sandpaper wrote: »

Ok so you have given an exception to the general rule, that doesn't mean it's not the general expectation that coaches don't criticise their players in such a scenario.
People remember such examples because they don't happen with regular frequency.

Are you going to present an argument to the original point regarding LBJ's decision which you felt was wrong?

Ok:

There were 16.8 seconds left when the play started, not more than 24. Someone above said you go early. Going early only makes sense when you have a 2 for 1 possession opportunity when the shoct clock is in your favour. At 16 seconds, you don't have the opportunity to go 2 for 1 possession wise that >24 seconds present; i.e. say there's 33 seconds left, you take a quick shot leaving ideally about 3+seconds left AFTER the opposition run a full (or as close to full) 24 seconds off their last possesion. 2 for 1s are designed so that you get the LAST possesion of the game, not give the opposition that.

Green shoots with 8.6seconds left. Why? Why give Miami that amount of time - assuming he made the shot (which he didn't)?

They were down 1, not 2. They didn't need a 3 totie or take the lead. This more than any other reason says take it to the hole and initiate contact. Do you honestly think if there's contact that the refs aren't calling it LeBron's way (superstar call or not)? Look at all of +1's he's had in this series, this game alone - incl. thhe one with approx 1:30 left. The guy is just so strong that even if he takes a lot of contact you fancy him to make the bucket too. And as they're only one down he doesn't even need to make the basket, he just needs a foul to go to the line for 2. And if he does that with 2 or less seconds remaining Miami are in real trouble. But even if he did this and scored he's driving with 9+ seconds left in the game.

Someone mentioned Green's career or perhaps it was last season's stats. Doesn't matter. He's not shooting well in the bubble, that's undeniable.

The David Blatt reference was in the Cavs Bulls series a few years ago where LeBron didn't like the play so scratched it and ran his own. That's what I was referring to.

Someone mentioned results-driven in that Kerr's shot went it so it was the right play. Well by that logic Green's didn't so therefore - again using that logic - it was not thre right play. BTW, I don't subscribe to that kind of logic, just turning it back on the poster who presented same. My point here is that I do feel this was not the best play for that set of circumstances.

BTW, LeBron travelled as he gathered the ball from the inbounds play. Care to comment on that?

K.O.Kiki

LeBron had a monstrous run in the 4th, but facts of the matter are that he's 35 years old and played 42 minutes.

If you're expecting him to be able to drive and score, after making himself the focal point for the quarter, you're daft :pac:

He still had 40-13-7 and was +7 for the game.

xgronkjabv6pcl

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Ok:

There were 16.8 seconds left when the play started, not more than 24. Someone above said you go early. Going early only makes sense when you have a 2 for 1 possession opportunity when the shoct clock is in your favour. At 16 seconds, you don't have the opportunity to go 2 for 1 possession wise that >24 seconds present; i.e. say there's 33 seconds left, you take a quick shot leaving ideally about 3+seconds left AFTER the opposition run a full (or as close to full) 24 seconds off their last possesion. 2 for 1s are designed so that you get the LAST possesion of the game, not give the opposition that.

Green shoots with 8.6seconds left. Why? Why give Miami that amount of time - assuming he made the shot (which he didn't)?

As I pointed out, this is old-school logic.

Coaches/analysts/statisticians have shown that running down the clock in order to reduce the chance of your opponent scoring while potentially passing up a higher percentage play results in a lower probability of success than taking a quicker shot irrespective of the time remaining.

Modern analysis suggests that you should take that shot as quickly as possible within the confines of being an advantageous shot.

I'll root out the articles and analysis I have read on the topic if you care to see them but it's something that is covered ad nauseam in recent years.

ButtersSuki wrote: »

They were down 1, not 2. They didn't need a 3 totie or take the lead. This more than any other reason says take it to the hole and initiate contact. Do you honestly think if there's contact that the refs aren't calling it LeBron's way (superstar call or not)? Look at all of +1's he's had in this series, this game alone - incl. thhe one with approx 1:30 left. The guy is just so strong that even if he takes a lot of contact you fancy him to make the bucket too. And as they're only one down he doesn't even need to make the basket, he just needs a foul to go to the line for 2. And if he does that with 2 or less seconds remaining Miami are in real trouble. But even if he did this and scored he's driving with 9+ seconds left in the game.

Yes they didn't need a three to take the lead but a three obviously puts them in a more advantageous position especially in light of freeing up time for the opposition to take a shot. If they take a 2 point shot-as per your own logic- they do not have the opportunity to respond if the Heat score on the subsequent play.
If they score a 3pt shot, they are guaranteed overtime unless the Heat can score a 3pt shot themselves which is lower probability shot all else equal.

Furthermore this is a game of fine margins and %. If LBJ is presented with a shot with a probability of success of circa 30%(read that somewhere) yet Green is presented with a shot of circa 40%(career average & 50% on night seems fair), the expected outcome of both scenarios yield 0.6 points in LBJs case and 1.2 points in Greens case.

That means the shot presented to Green was twice as valuable as that presented to LBJ.
We can obviously add on some expected value for LBJs increased probability of being fouled but unfortunately I'm not sure of the statistics there nor am I sure how to factor in the "superstar call" stuff so I wont pretend I do.

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Someone mentioned Green's career or perhaps it was last season's stats. Doesn't matter. He's not shooting well in the bubble, that's undeniable.

40% career and 50% in the game with a proven championship pedigree. He was the undoubted choice. 3pt shooting is high variance, he has proven his ability.

ButtersSuki wrote: »

The David Blatt reference was in the Cavs Bulls series a few years ago where LeBron didn't like the play so scratched it and ran his own. That's what I was referring to.

Someone mentioned results-driven in that Kerr's shot went it so it was the right play. Well by that logic Green's didn't so therefore - again using that logic - it was not thre right play. BTW, I don't subscribe to that kind of logic, just turning it back on the poster who presented same. My point here is that I do feel this was not the best play for that set of circumstances.

BTW, LeBron travelled as he gathered the ball from the inbounds play. Care to comment on that?

Yes that is terrible logic. I mentioned Kerr but only as a demonstration that even the best player ever has shown an ability to pass the ball in the biggest moments too.

I dont care if LBJ travelled in that spot. It had no impact on the play and is a distraction from the conversation imo.

eagle eye

K.O.Kiki wrote:

He still had 40-13-7 and was +7 for the game.

That +7 is a stupid metric.
Davis was +7 as well, Green was +12, Butler was only +5 and Robinson was +7 as well.
The two best players on the floor, and be va long way were Jimmy Butler and LBJ. Any metric that has anyone else even close to those two is massively flawed.

Coneygree

Imagine if the Lakers lose it from here. All the talk of the past few days will do a huge 180. A lot depends on Davis' condition.

xgronkjabv6pcl

Coneygree wrote: »

Imagine if the Lakers lose it from here. All the talk of the past few days will do a huge 180. A lot depends on Davis' condition.

If they do, irrespective of what side you fall on the debate, imo the GOAT conversation is effectively closed.

In terms of legacy, LBJ just cant lose this championship.

eagle eye

Coneygree wrote:

Imagine if the Lakers lose it from here. All the talk of the past few days will do a huge 180. A lot depends on Davis' condition.

Well the Heat have to find a way to give Jimmy Butler two minutes per quarter off. No way he can he keep up the level he is at playing that many minutes.

xgronkjabv6pcl

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Well that sums it up perfectly then doesn’t it?
Doesn’t matter if LeBron travels on a potential game winning play?! Ok, sure. :rolleyes:

Exactly as I said, you've presented a point which is largely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Irrespective of whether LBJ travelled-I know, he has travelled lots- it made no difference to the development of the play.

Genuinely don't know why you're rolling your eyes. You're making a point with little relevance to the discussion at hand.

Do you believe that LBJ's travel in this case gave him an advantage in the subsequent play?

xgronkjabv6pcl

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Do I believe the travel gave him an advantage? Yes.

Because it should be Miami ball!!!! How hard is that to understand?

We all know that this happens in the NBA to all players. That is never a call that is being made against any player.

You're completely moving away from the point of the discussion. If you want discuss whether travels such as this should be glossed over then go ahead but that's a separate discussion. Try to stay on point.

If I grant you that LBJ travelled near half court then that's fine, it happens. If he travelled attacking the basket then I think that is different.

Travelling at half court or catching the ball while completely stagnant had no impact on the play. I assume you can understand the practical difference in the two scenarios.

jk23

I don't think this is going to matter on Sunday, I think it was the Heats last stand, I think they will run out of gas in a game 6

Jimmy Butler has really taken his star to a new level in these playoffs, one of the best stories of the playoffs...