NBA Regular Season & Playoffs 2019-20 Thread

xgronkjabv6pcl

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Dwight Howard

I guess he's undoubtedly a HOF player now?

I'd imagine he was in with a shout anyway but I suspect he gets in now that he has a chip?

Sounds a bit crazy given his rep and recent production but I'd say he has the accolades.

Coneygree

Walter Hissing Sandpaper wrote: »

I guess he's undoubtedly a HOF player now?

I'd imagine he was in with a shout anyway but I suspect he gets in now that he has a chip?

Sounds a bit crazy given his rep and recent production but I'd say he has the accolades.

Howard was an absolute lock even before this season in my eyes.

Stolen from Reddit, but one hell of a resume prior to this season:
• 8× NBA All-Star (2007–2014)

• 5× All-NBA First Team (2008–2012)

• All-NBA Second Team (2014)

• 2× All-NBA Third Team (2007, 2013)

• 3× NBA Defensive Player of the Year (2009–2011)

• 4× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2009–2012)

• NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2008)

• NBA All-Rookie First Team (2005)

• 5× NBA rebounding leader (2008–2010, 2012, 2013)

• 2× NBA blocks leader (2009, 2010)

Easy to forget as his decline has been quite spectacular but prime Howard was utter domination.

LuckyLloyd

Agreed - at his peak he was utterly ridiculous.

xgronkjabv6pcl

Coneygree wrote: »

Howard was an absolute lock even before this season in my eyes.

Stolen from Reddit, but one hell of a resume prior to this season:
• 8× NBA All-Star (2007–2014)

• 5× All-NBA First Team (2008–2012)

• All-NBA Second Team (2014)

• 2× All-NBA Third Team (2007, 2013)

• 3× NBA Defensive Player of the Year (2009–2011)

• 4× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2009–2012)

• NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2008)

• NBA All-Rookie First Team (2005)

• 5× NBA rebounding leader (2008–2010, 2012, 2013)

• 2× NBA blocks leader (2009, 2010)

Easy to forget as his decline has been quite spectacular but prime Howard was utter domination.

Totally agree, probably more of a what ballot question than does he make it.

Yao Ming, Jack Sikma, Dikembe Mutombo & T-Mac all recently inducted and he compares favourably to them.

I suppose more of a fear that his attitude would have gotten in the way which would have been a shame.

Media now presents the opportunity to cast such a shadow over players that who knows how it might be skewed.

ButtersSuki

If Howard's career had ended 5-6 years ago we'd have been in awe of his career. Injuries aside - which have undoubtedly hampered him, the biggest damage done to himself and his reputation have been self-inflicted. He's his own worst enemy.

Equally valid however though is that the enty floor for the HOF is very low based on some of the inductees.

He's a lock.

ButtersSuki

jk23 wrote: »

What would he have to average over say 3/4 years?

He averaged 25.3 ppg this regular season in 67 games.
Say he plays 65 games a year - allowing for rest, load management, injuries etc. That's 195 games. Thre ppg totals I'm going to use as examples are 3 year averages BTW:

195 x say 20pts per game = 3,900.

195 x 21pts per game = 4,095.

195 x 22pts per game = 4,290.

195 x 23pts per game = 4,485.

195 x 24pts per game = 4,680.

195 X 25pts per game = 4,875.

I think 195 Regular Season games is easily achievable, as I think all of the average over 3 year points totals are up to 23ppg - after that I'm not so sure he hits those numbers as an average over 3 years.

Either way I think (barring injury) he'll shatter the points total when you factor in year 4 and beyond etc.


For context, Jordan averaged 20ppg as a 40 year old with Washington.

xgronkjabv6pcl

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Agreed - at his peak he was utterly ridiculous.

There are a few players not there yet that if omitted will be a shame.

Billups & Ben Wallace spring to mind, the latter has 4 DPOY awards.

One player almost sure to be omitted is D.Rose.

Assuming not much changes in his career between now and retirement, he'll be the only MVP to date that will be omitted from HOF.

ButtersSuki

Walter Hissing Sandpaper wrote: »

There are a few players not there yet that if omitted will be a shame.

Billups & Ben Wallace spring to mind, the latter has 4 DPOY awards.

One player almost sure to be omitted is D.Rose.

Assuming not much changes in his career between now and retirement, he'll be the only MVP to date that will be omitted from HOF.

Mitch Richmond is in the HOF. Rose will get in. And yes I know he has a ring, but he was a bench player.

Rose will get in on Youngest Player to Win MVP. I'm not saying I agree with it, but I can't see him not getting in based on some of the people in there. It seems to be as much a popularity contest now as anyting else.

eagle eye

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Agreed - at his peak he was utterly ridiculous.

Agreed, only weakness was his free throws.

xgronkjabv6pcl

eagle eye wrote: »

Agreed, only weakness was his free throws.

And any semblance of a go to post move.

Elite athlete and fantastic defender but offensively inept in the block. If he didnt go straight through or over his opponent he had little else.

LuckyLloyd

https://twitter.com/ESPNStatsInfo/status/1315638355846103041?s=20

:eek:

xgronkjabv6pcl

@Carcharodon apologies in advance now.

Zach Lowe mentioned to Windhorst on his podcast that he was releasing this piece.

Only sitting down to read it now:
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/30070633/lebron-james-vs-michael-jordan-why-goat-debate-different-now

jk23

Walter Hissing Sandpaper wrote: »

@Carcharodon apologies in advance now.

Zach Lowe mentioned to Windhorst on his podcast that he was releasing this piece.

Only sitting down to read it now:
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/30070633/lebron-james-vs-michael-jordan-why-goat-debate-different-now

Really enjoyed to that piece by Zach Lowe, describes how I feel about MJ Vs LeBron ....I can't deny that LeBron is unbelievable but just the way he did it just makes me side with Jordan.

Leaving Cleveland before he won a title to team up with two top ten players in the same conference to dominate is not really a GOAT move, a player like LeBron should have players dying to come to play with him but he build a super team in Miami with Wade and Bosh

eagle eye

Well for me Jordan isn't only the GOAT basketball player, he's the GOAT sportsperson.

xgronkjabv6pcl

eagle eye wrote: »

Well for me Jordan isn't only the GOAT basketball player, he's the GOAT sportsperson.

Wayne Gretzky has always been someone whos dominance in his sport was extremely impressive.

That said, comparing athlete's within sports and across eras-even within eras- is often a fool's errand, like apples to oranges.

Taking that and then attempting to compare athletes across sports and across eras feels a little more apples to elephants.

It must be one of the more futile discussions in sports..

eagle eye

Walter Hissing Sandpaper wrote:

It must be one of the more futile discussions in sports..

Well you have your opinion,vice been watching multiple sports for a long, long time.
I can tell you that Usain Bolt is the greatest track and field athlete I've ever seen, Tiger Woods is the greatest golfer, Tom Brady is the greatest quarterback, Gretzky the greatest hockey player, Serena Williams the greatest female tennis player and Michael Jordan the greatest of them all.
There's loads of other sports where there's an argument over who is the greatest but from all I've seen over the years there was nobody that dominated like Jordan.
And I mean he scored 63 points against the great Celtics team of Bird, Ainge, Walton, McHale, Parrish et al in a playoff game in the Boston Garden and still lost. That was early on his career and he just got better and better year after year, always learning, always working harder. The fact that he still owns the ppg average is a big pointer to how great he was and he was a great defender as well.

xgronkjabv6pcl

eagle eye wrote: »

Well you have your opinion, I've been watching multiple sports for a long, long time.
I can tell you that Usain Bolt is the greatest track and field athlete I've ever seen, Tiger Woods is the greatest golfer, Tom Brady is the greatest quarterback, Gretzky the greatest hockey player, Serena Williams the greatest female tennis player and Michael Jordan the greatest of them all.
There's loads of other sports where there's an argument over who is the greatest but from all I've seen over the years there was nobody that dominated like Jordan.
And I mean he scored 63 points against the great Celtics team of Bird, Ainge, Walton, McHale, Parrish et al in a playoff game in the Boston Garden and still lost. That was early on his career and he just got better and better year after year, always learning, always working harder. The fact that he still owns the ppg average is a big pointer to how great he was and he was a great defender as well.

I'm sure you have been watching sports a long time but no amount of sports knowledge could make trying to conclude who the Super-GOAT is a fruitful endeavour imo.

You're of course entitled to your opinion but for me trying to conclude who the best sportsperson ever is like trying to predict a share price, weather or Covid numbers in exactly 6 months, there are infinite variables to consider with such a large margin of error that it is effectively pointless.

Again just an opinion.

xgronkjabv6pcl

Breaking down the best players of this past season.

Always a solid basis for his conclusions:

LuckyLloyd

Walter Hissing Sandpaper wrote: »

Breaking down the best players of this past season.

Always a solid basis for his conclusions:

Seems a reasonable list! Curry and KD back in the mix for this season and it will be interesting to see how they fare.

xgronkjabv6pcl

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Seems a reasonable list! Curry and KD back in the mix for this season and it will be interesting to see how they fare.

I think it's a good list too. Curry I can see back in it but I think major question marks over KD.

I know advancements in sports science move at a phenomenal pace but achilles tears seem to be near impossible to recover from for NBA players.

Obviously some caveats with age etc but Kobe, Cousins, Wesley Matthews, Rudy Gay never returned to form.

Study wrote: »

According to a 2013 medical study that identified 18 players who suffered major Achilles injuries over a 23-year span (1988-2011), seven players never returned to the league. Players who returned missed an average of 56 games and saw their PER decline in their first and second seasons back. A 2015 CBS Sports article found that among 14 players who returned from Achilles injuries since 1992, they averaged fewer minutes while both their field goal and three-point percentages dropped, on average. There are very few complete success stories.

Hopefully he does recover but at 32, I tend to think he'll never be a Top 10 player again. Again hopefully I'm wrong.

LuckyLloyd

The Lowe article is a good read. The GOAT debate has been going for around 7 years or so now and it’s been a constantly moving target as LeBron progresses his career.

Leaving aside the power of nostalgia, there’s a simplicity and symmetry to Jordan’s accomplishments that makes his case highly graspable. And, as such, it was never going to matter what LeBron did after 2010 - 2011 for some people. He moved teams and he had a very poor finals series and that closed the case forever in some minds. He could win the next two titles as Finals MVP and he still wouldn’t move the needle for some, because his record has blemishes in the way MJ’s doesn’t (better to lose before the finals or not play versus losing a finals series as far as that goes).

Their career arcs and the decisions within them diverged a long time ago, and a 4th title from a 3rd team in a 2nd conference is just a completely different context in which to measure the worth of an entire career. LeBron has now played with a huge volume of supporting casts; three different co star alignments (plus Bosh; plus Love; plus the terrible Cleveland rosters early in his career; the 2018 roster; the Lakers 2019 roster); a huge variety of coaches; in a 2000s NBA landscape where the flow and strategy of the game was one thing; in the post 2013 landscape where the deep shot being King is another.

There’s so much more there to unpick when compared to MJ. That’s not to say MJ’s career was static. The documentary does a good job covering how the Bulls organisation and the roster evolved over the years. As did his competition. But for his championship years he always had the same coach, the same second option, the same GM and the same owner. And it makes it all a lot easier to weigh up and assess. There are just less moving parts involved.

There are other things going on here too, let’s not forget. LeBron didn’t pioneer the idea of a “super team”, but he has certainly taken an ownership over his playing career in a way no star before him ever did. He is largely responsible for a new era of player options and player power and this is most certainly disliked by a subset of NBA fans as a result. He is also becoming increasingly political in a strident and unapologetic way, and this will also be viewed negatively in comparison to MJ. As much as I see these things as huge positives, I accept others see it differently.

In the end, the only parts of the debate worth attacking anymore are the ‘LeChoke isn’t even no.2, Kobe / Bird / Magic / Russel / Hakeem (delete as desired) were better’ hold outs. Most of the ardent MJ category accept LeBron has a case and is a strong no.2, at least. It’s progress, I’ll take it. People will believe whatever they want to believe at the end of the day, and that’s okay. Ideally we’d all appreciate the level LeBron is at and try to catch it and savour as much of it as we can before it’s gone. Because there can’t be much more of it - maybe not even another year, we don’t know. Time is firmly against him now and we could be waiting a while to see someone express this level over such a long period of time. Though I certainly expect that I will see someone come along to eclipse LeBron (and MJ) if I’m lucky enough to live another couple of decades...that is the nature of human progression.

eagle eye

Good post Lloyd. I'm in the category that wouldn't really argue with LeBron as no. 2 all time.

There's a chance that he, and even MJ, get eclipsed rather soon though if Giannis keeps improving.

jk23

Walter Hissing Sandpaper wrote: »

I think it's a good list too. Curry I can see back in it but I think major question marks over KD.

I know advancements in sports science move at a phenomenal pace but achilles tears seem to be near impossible to recover from for NBA players.

Obviously some caveats with age etc but Kobe, Cousins, Wesley Matthews, Rudy Gay never returned to form.



Hopefully he does recover but at 32, I tend to think he'll never be a Top 10 player again. Again hopefully I'm wrong.

The only player I can think of who got back to near full form post Achilles was Dominique Wilkins so there is hope for Kevin Durant and also his game is not based solely on being athletic

xgronkjabv6pcl

The only player in my eyes with a ceiling high enough in the current era to even flirt with anything close to MJ/LBJ/Kareem/Magic or anyone else in the conversation is Zion.

He obviously has an infinitely long distance to travel before anything can be said but on pure ceiling, the scope is there.

Giannis is phenomenal but he has fewer dimensions to his offensive game, less fluidity and didn't possess the raw talent Zion has at 20.

Giannis may eventually go down as the most versatile two-way player of all time, the signs are certainly there for that.
However, listening to JJ Redick among others talk about the way Zion almost instantaneously grasps the nuances of the NBA game and applies them makes me think he's the only one that could get there.

Those players who reach the top have a gravity that separates them. MJ, LBJ, Magic all had that, Giannis doesn't quite seem to capture the imagination.
He's young and he may get there but the gap between him and his peers is not that big. There is little between him and AD on pure talent and production. As highlighted in the video above, he believes a case can be made for AD as the best in the NBA.

I obviously don't think he will ever reach the heights of the best players ever but if there is anyone in the NBA who has the raw talent to work with, it has to be Zion imo.

LuckyLloyd

I don't think anyone currently active in the NBA or due to be drafted this year is the one. LeBron was massively hyped for years before he was drafted in an era before social media. When the next messiah is coming we'll know about it for years before they step inside an NBA court.

Giannis's game isn't well rounded imo and he's problematic to build around. Zion's body is unlikely to facilitate years at the top.

Though this is a good way to start understanding how good LeBron is and MJ was. Steph Curry has had a direct impact on the game being changed, was a two time MVP and no - one would see him as coming close to either. You have to get to a league MVP level and stay there for multiple years; carry it into the playoffs and win multiple championships as Finals MVP; and stay at that level or close to it year in, year out for a decade or more.

And yet, someone will eventually come and do all of that. And I think that's always been a core problem in the GOAT debate - some people refuse to believe MJ will ever be topped. But it doesn't work that way. Nothing lasts forever.

Coneygree

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I don't think anyone currently active in the NBA or due to be drafted this year is the one. LeBron was massively hyped for years before he was drafted in an era before social media. When the next messiah is coming we'll know about it for years before they step inside an NBA court.

Giannis's game isn't well rounded imo and he's problematic to build around. Zion's body is unlikely to facilitate years at the top.

Though this is a good way to start understanding how good LeBron is and MJ was. Steph Curry has had a direct impact on the game being changed, was a two time MVP and no - one would see him as coming close to either. You have to get to a league MVP level and stay there for multiple years; carry it into the playoffs and win multiple championships as Finals MVP; and stay at that level or close to it year in, year out for a decade or more.

And yet, someone will eventually come and do all of that. And I think that's always been a core problem in the GOAT debate - some people refuse to believe MJ will ever be topped. But it doesn't work that way. Nothing lasts forever.

Emoni Bates would appear to be that guy based off the level of hype at such a young age.

xgronkjabv6pcl

Jared Dudley on with Simmons and Russillo(fantastic imo) talking about the title run, laughing at Clippers, dismissing Miami, bubble life, him and LBJ watching The Last Dance together and even LBJ holding back on the passive aggressive tweets. Loads in there.

If you're like me and wouldn't choose Boston Bill generally, it's still well worth a listen for some candid info.

ButtersSuki

Walter Hissing Sandpaper wrote: »

Jared Dudley on with Simmons and Russillo(fantastic imo) talking about the title run, laughing at Clippers, dismissing Miami, bubble life, him and LBJ watching The Last Dance together and even LBJ holding back on the passive aggressive tweets. Loads in there.

If you're like me and wouldn't choose Boston Bill generally, it's still well worth a listen for some candid info.

Listened to the pod but didn't see the video. Not sure i'd watch it having previously listened but Dudley was very energetic, prob. still high on the win to be fair. Suprprised he went as hard on the Clippers as he did, esp. as he's hoping to be back in the league next year - it was funny.

The pod has another hour+ without Dudley. In it, they discuss (briefly) how in hindsight the Lakers were lucky that Playoff P didn't join with LeBron. Worth listeningto.

For Forks Sake

Clippers handing Tyrone Lue a 5-year contract. That seems...unwise.

chips1234

For Forks Sake wrote: »

Clippers handing Tyrone Lue a 5-year contract. That seems...unwise.

maybe kawhi can do the same job as lebron did for him and coach the team to a title strange decision imo