Voting reform, Dail Scandal and Politican's greed [See post 172]

PeadarCo

Jolly Red Giant wrote:

Writing a few numbers on a ballot paper every few years is not democracy - I am in favour of participatory democracy based on workplace and community based committees

Jolly Red Giant wrote:

The Dail bar is not a canteen - there is a separate (highly subsidised) restaurant for food - the Dail bar is used to ply people with drink and do backroom deals.

Jolly Red Giant wrote:

Solidarity members don't use the Dail bar because it is one more mechanism for sucking people into being dependent on a political system designed to preserve the rule of the elites.

Is it any wonder why Solidarity members struggle for votes in elections given the complete lack of respect they have for not only their colleagues of other persuasions but voters themselves.

The one thing the Irish voting system can not be faulted on is the level of engagement TD's are required to have with the public at large. To describe voting as just writing on the ballot paper every couple of years is very nieve. The Healy Raes are the most infamous example of how engaged TD's must be with their constituents. Every successful TD does what they do to a somewhat lesser degree(at least on apperances). To the topic of the post it's the reason I have no issue with politicans getting a decent wage as for a good politican it's nearly a 24hr job. Obviously for solidarity members it might be a bit different as based on what you have said arguing about ideology is more important engaging with the ordinary person on the street. And as a result they might have a bit more time on their hands.

Describing the Dail bar as way of politicians luring people into it to corrupt them and make them dependant on them is completely and utterly laughable. As mentioned in this post it's the reverse.

L1011

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

Writing a few numbers on a ballot paper every few years is not democracy - I am in favour of participatory democracy based on workplace and community based committees

And this attitude is why it is very likely Solidarity will have no TDs at the next election. Either because the actual democracy we have votes them out or they keep leaving

quokula

I don't really understand why this is seen as such a big deal.

If a housemate asked me to vote for them on polling day because they couldn't get out for any reason, it would not necessarily be morally wrong to do so, but it would rightly be illegal because the vote would be anonymous and I could therefore vote against his wishes, and on a scale of millions of people it would be open to abuse.

Those arguments don't stand within the Dail, and I don't see how it is in any way corrupt to get somebody else to vote on your behalf. In the UK where they have the division lobbies, they have a system of asking someone opposed to you to not vote, in order to make up for you not being present. In real terms that is exactly the same thing, but not seen as controversial at all when conducted correctly.

James Brown

quokula wrote: »

I don't really understand why this is seen as such a big deal.

If a housemate asked me to vote for them on polling day because they couldn't get out for any reason, it would not necessarily be morally wrong to do so, but it would rightly be illegal because the vote would be anonymous and I could therefore vote against his wishes, and on a scale of millions of people it would be open to abuse.

Those arguments don't stand within the Dail, and I don't see how it is in any way corrupt to get somebody else to vote on your behalf. In the UK where they have the division lobbies, they have a system of asking someone opposed to you to not vote, in order to make up for you not being present. In real terms that is exactly the same thing, but not seen as controversial at all when conducted correctly.

Democracy, accountability, credibility and basically their paid job.

How does your housemate know you'll vote how he wants? How does the people who elected your housemate feel about a third party using his vote? How would the person who paid him to in part to cast votes, feel about him using a friend to cast a vote? How does the tax payer feel about him getting paid even though he assigns some of his job to others?

It undermines the legitimacy of the Dail IMO.

quokula

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Democracy, accountability, credibility and basically their paid job.

How does your housemate know you voted how he wanted? How does the people who elected your housemate feel about a third party using his vote? How would the person who paid him to in part cast votes, feel about him using a friend to cast a vote?

It undermines the legitimacy of the Dail IMO.

I literally answered your question in my post. My housemate doesn't know I voted how he wanted, and that's why it's illegal.

In the Dail this is not the case. There is total accountability amongst TDs in their voting record. Who's finger happened to be on the button is irrelevant as long as the vote that TD intended to cast gets cast.

If it turns out someone was running around making votes for people against their intended vote then that would be an issue, but it's not what happened.

What happened is somebody wanted to vote X, they couldn't be present to press the button for whatever reason, so they got somebody else to vote X for them instead. Frankly if an important knife edge vote went in the opposite direction just because a TD had a dentist appointment that day and wasn't allowed to get somebody to vote for them that would be far worse for democracy, accountability and credibility.

There's a valid question about the frequency of this happening and if it could be considered a sign of laziness or whatever. But I can't see how there can be any argument that it's corrupt or illegitimate.

James Brown

quokula wrote: »

I literally answered your question in my post. My housemate doesn't know I voted how he wanted, and that's why it's illegal.

In the Dail this is not the case. There is total accountability amongst TDs in their voting record. Who's finger happened to be on the button is irrelevant as long as the vote that TD intended to cast gets cast.

If it turns out someone was running around making votes for people against their intended vote then that would be an issue, but it's not what happened.

What happened is somebody wanted to vote X, they couldn't be present to press the button for whatever reason, so they got somebody else to vote X for them instead. Frankly if an important knife edge vote went in the opposite direction just because a TD had a dentist appointment that day and wasn't allowed to get somebody to vote for them that would be far worse for democracy, accountability and credibility.

There's a valid question about the frequency of this happening and if it could be considered a sign of laziness or whatever. But I can't see how there can be any argument that it's corrupt or illegitimate.

Yeah, the people we elected, who got someone else to vote on their behalf, (while likely claiming expenses) said so, so it must be true.

Apologies. My analogy wasn't on point, I'm trying to use politicians in the same scenario.
Basically, it's a big deal if anyone cares about decisions made for the country or are bothered about who gets elected on their one vote.
We shrug off too much as is IMO. This is cross party pretty much.

If you trust the people you elected, that can't be arsed to turn up maybe, to choose a proxy, you didn't elect, to cast votes that effect you, then sure, what's the big deal?
I'll send one of my mates into the job Monday, but I'll show my face so's I get paid.

quokula

Matt Barrett wrote: »

If you trust the people you elected, that can't be arsed to turn up maybe, to choose a proxy, you didn't elect, to cast votes that effect you, then sure, what's the big deal?
I'll send one of my mates into the job Monday, but I'll show my face so's I get paid.

I elected them to decide what way to vote. I didn't elect them based on who has the best button-pressing finger.

I really don't understand why that bit matters, as long as the correct decisions get made.

To go along with your analogy with sending one of your mates to do your job, it's not really the same. If I hire an architect to build a house, I won't moan about him getting someone else to actually lay the bricks, as long as it's to his design.

James Brown

quokula wrote: »

I elected them to decide what way to vote. I didn't elect them based on who has the best button-pressing finger.

I really don't understand why that bit matters, as long as the correct decisions get made.

To go along with your analogy with sending one of your mates to do your job, it's not really the same. If I hire an architect to build a house, I won't moan about him getting someone else to actually lay the bricks, as long as it's to his design.

Because a third party is voting not the person you elected and we can't be sure of the legitimacy at that point.

Nope. The analogy would be you hire an architect to build your house, one you like and he replaces himself with another architect he knows and tells him how he'd like him to build your house. He can say it was his design and we can take his word I suppose. How would you know if it wasn't?

If any donkey can go in and vote, it must be just the expenses they turn up for otherwise they'd all stay at home and get Uber eats to vote for them.
Personally I prefer my politicians to respect the job given to them by them doing it.

Jolly Red Giant

dulpit wrote: »

But you did use it for personal use. You chose to donate it to your party. It's the same claptrap the shinners used come out with about taking the industrial wage, but actually took the whole salary and just donated it to party. If you really believed in it, leave the money behind for the exchequer to use...

Leaving the money behind for the rest of them to put in their pockets - not a chance. I am putting it to far better use.

Jolly Red Giant

PeadarCo wrote: »

Is it any wonder why Solidarity members struggle for votes in elections given the complete lack of respect they have for not only their colleagues of other persuasions but voters themselves.

The one thing the Irish voting system can not be faulted on is the level of engagement TD's are required to have with the public at large. To describe voting as just writing on the ballot paper every couple of years is very nieve. The Healy Raes are the most infamous example of how engaged TD's must be with their constituents. Every successful TD does what they do to a somewhat lesser degree(at least on apperances). To the topic of the post it's the reason I have no issue with politicans getting a decent wage as for a good politican it's nearly a 24hr job. Obviously for solidarity members it might be a bit different as based on what you have said arguing about ideology is more important engaging with the ordinary person on the street. And as a result they might have a bit more time on their hands.

Describing the Dail bar as way of politicians luring people into it to corrupt them and make them dependant on them is completely and utterly laughable. As mentioned in this post it's the reverse.

Being a parish pump politicians kissing babies and going to funerals is not progressive. It creates and interdependence based on the abuse of power by the politicians.

Politicians are supposed to represent the people who elected them - how are they supposed to know what it is like for people to live on the average industrial wage or less when they are on multiples of that in salary (and most of them also have other income streams - like the large number of landlords we have in the Dail).

L1011 wrote: »

And this attitude is why it is very likely Solidarity will have no TDs at the next election. Either because the actual democracy we have votes them out or they keep leaving

The interesting thing here is the reason why you and the rest of the population actually get to vote every 4-5 years is directly as a result of the actions of left-wing activists in the past. If it was up to the political elites it would still be old men of property who would be the only people allowed to vote.

L1011

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

).


The interesting thing here is the reason why you and the rest of the population actually get to vote every 4-5 years is directly as a result of the actions of left-wing activists in the past. If it was up to the political elites it would still be old men of property who would be the only people allowed to vote.

Left wing activists that respected representative democracy

Not until we have democracy in the workplace can we even attempt to consider ourselves such.

bobbyss

How did that Rae fellow clock in ( or vote) and be in funeral same day?

Bobeagleburger

bobbyss wrote: »

How did that Rae fellow clock in ( or vote) and be in funeral same day?

Was he paid his expenses for that day?

Only if there is a financial fraud to all this will it gain traction imo.

bobbyss

6 wrote:

Was he paid his expenses for that day?

6 wrote:

Only if there is a financial fraud to all this will it gain traction imo.

Appatently they can 'sign in' by swiping in. This apparently proves attendance. Gates open at 7 30 it seems.

How would ayone know you left at 7 31? Or better still have someone use ylur card to swipe in. I really don't know how it works.
In some jobs you are required to sign in and sign out. Not the Dail it seems. What abiut in event of fire? What are the procedures? Someone swiped in but not swiped out must be on the promises?

PeadarCo

Jolly Red Giant wrote:

Being a parish pump politicians kissing babies and going to funerals is not progressive. It creates and interdependence based on the abuse of power by the politicians.

Jolly Red Giant wrote:

Politicians are supposed to represent the people who elected them - how are they supposed to know what it is like for people to live on the average industrial wage or less when they are on multiples of that in salary (and most of them also have other income streams - like the large number of landlords we have in the Dail).

I don't know how that is supposed to refute my point in fact I'd argue it just backs it up. The biggest issue with parish pump politics is that politicians are too connected with voters to the detriment of big picture issues. A good example being the housing crisis. Parish pump politics means politicians support Nimby movements in Dublin. They lobby against extra housing space at a local level because they are afraid of losing votes even though housing space is badly needed. Your idea that politicians corrupt the electorate is comical because their are countless examples of the opposite being the case.

Parish pump politics literally means engaging with everyone ignoring age, job, gender, pay grade etc. Hads how they understand how people survive and what their needs are. Take the Healy Raes while not politicians I'd be fans of do you honestly think they just turn up to some event and stand mute. No they go out engage with people talk to them. This is far more important than any salary. A politcan will never be able to understand how everyone lives because the electorate is a large diverse set of people who's needs and lives are constantly changing that can't be easy categorised. So they go out to different events on a regular basis and talk to people.

However again I understand given the Solidarity parties obsession with ideology engaging with the ordinary person on the street might be frightening. Because that means having to address people's needs which will not always be in line with the Solidarity Bible.


Follow any politcan on social media, even just pay attention and on a fairly regular basis you will see politicians putting up signs advertising meetings. Politicians deserve a decent wage because they are very public roles and all that comes with that good and bad.


To be honest it's very easy to see from your posts how communists states turn into police states which lack the basic freedoms we take for granted. A theme going through your posts is that voters are stupid and are corrupted by outside influences and they need guidance. It's not to big a jump from this to say people don't need to listened to(ie no free elections etc) and they need to be protected from "corrupting" influences(ie no freedom of expression etc) and those bad influences need to locked away for the good of society(ie political prison camps).

L1011

The possibility that there's been some dodgy signing in for other TDs has been poked at by a few journos. I suspect someone knows something.

beggars_bush

L1011 wrote: »

The possibility that there's been some dodgy signing in for other TDs has been poked at by a few journos. I suspect someone knows something.

Two brothers
I wonder do they have a rota for who clocks in for who...

L1011

beggars_bush wrote: »

Two brothers
I wonder do they have a rota for who clocks in for who...

And you know that even if this is the case it won't have the slightest impact on their electability.

Well, it could actually help it...

McMurphy

quokula wrote: »

I literally answered your question in my post. My housemate doesn't know I voted how he wanted, and that's why it's illegal.

In the Dail this is not the case. There is total accountability amongst TDs in their voting record. Who's finger happened to be on the button is irrelevant as long as the vote that TD intended to cast gets cast.

If it turns out someone was running around making votes for people against their intended vote then that would be an issue, but it's not what happened.

What happened is somebody wanted to vote X, they couldn't be present to press the button for whatever reason, so they got somebody else to vote X for them instead. Frankly if an important knife edge vote went in the opposite direction just because a TD had a dentist appointment that day and wasn't allowed to get somebody to vote for them that would be far worse for democracy, accountability and credibility.

There's a valid question about the frequency of this happening and if it could be considered a sign of laziness or whatever. But I can't see how there can be any argument that it's corrupt or illegitimate.

Why make them press a button at all then in your case? Sure a show of hands would suffice with the results shown projected onto the side wall of the chamber, and everyone could.nod in agreement or scowl in disagreement with the results until they had a result that satisfied the biggest pact in the Dail.

Fingerprint recognition. Job done.

mycro2013

There must be an election coming up, and Leo and he's media buddies have will this managed to last. A slow drip feed of Information, sound bites from tds.

The cynic in me says nothing will happen, this has been ongoing for years. There needs to be independent monitoring of the system. The vested interests will not self regulate.

is_that_so

mycro2013 wrote: »

There must be an election coming up, and Leo and he's media buddies have will this managed to last. A slow drip feed of Information, sound bites from tds.

The cynic in me says nothing will happen, this has been ongoing for years. There needs to be independent monitoring of the system. The vested interests will not self regulate.

You just change the rules and the use of technology. Oh and no election till the Spring, probably April May at the earliest.

mycro2013

is_that_so wrote: »

You just change the rules and the use of technology. Oh and no election till the Spring, probably April May at the earliest.

I like yourself would hope that this would happen but some bull**** gdpr interpretation will render the technology obsolete. These tds are a class act.

is_that_so

mycro2013 wrote: »

I like yourself would hope that this would happen but some bull**** gdpr interpretation will render the technology obsolete. These tds are a class act.

GDPR is about private data, they are public. Signing in to activate their voting panel is one to do it.

Collecting an attendance allowance from our state but not actually being in attendance is fraud. What is wrong with some people that they refuse to accept this?

Michael Healy-Rae urged to explain how he claimed Dáil expenses when he was in Kerry

Absolutely unacceptable that Healy-Rea, and his soulmates in corruption in the Oireachtas, are being treated with kid gloves here. The days of John O'Donoghue and his expenses (read that to refresh your memories of the scale of it all) are not, unfortunately, in the past. This tolerance of low-level corruption is the culture which allowed O'Donoghue - elected by the same constituency as Healy-Rea, instructively enough - to make international news headlines with his own extraordinary ripping off of the Irish taxpayer.

Jolly Red Giant

L1011 wrote: »

Left wing activists that respected representative democracy

Clearly you know little of the history of the struggle to gain the vote.

L1011

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

Clearly you know little of the history of the struggle to gain the vote.

Considering your clear disrespect for the idea I don't want to know what revisionist nonsense you believe the history to be

Your pathetic justification for taking expenses you didn't have to shows you have little connection with reality, truth or fact when it challenges your viewpoint

Phoebas

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

Leaving the money behind for the rest of them to put in their pockets - not a chance. I am putting it to far better use.

Leaving the money with the Exchequer to pay for public services.

This idea that the Government will only squander my money and I know best how to put my own money to use is something that usually comes from the right - but I guess at the extremes the left and the right can be very similar.

Capt'n Midnight

L1011 wrote: »

We have quite a good system, vastly superior to Scotland as well as many other neighbours. If it was all 5 seats or indeed larger it'd be better;

The reason it's 3 to 5 seats is to balance out the effect where big voter getters benefit in three seaters, while more than five means the last person can get in with a tiny vote.

purifol0

I see people here still see GDPR as a solution and panacea. Sadly it can be abused by those in power (govt & civil service, the church) much as they abuse all laws. Recently GDPR is being cited as the reason retired politicans pensions (plural as some have many) cannot be disclosed. Its also a scapegoat for denying info to adult adoptees about their biological parents.

The solution to the problem of remote voting isnt technical or legal. It's enforcement, and time and again the electorate has failed to step up to the plate and vote for anyone that will dare attempt to change the system.