Galway traffic

?Cee?view

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118546392#Comment_118546392

I'm more asking about the concept of "traffic evaporation". Is this a thing that's been proven to happen? Is it kind of the opposite of induced demand?

Some of the misinformation relating to the bike lanes in Salthill

https://irishcycle.com/2022/01/27/dear-galway-residents-please-dont-back-the-scaremongering-or-sit-on-the-sideline/

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118546404#Comment_118546404

Ya it is kind of the opposite of induced demand. Plenty of International examples, but for a recent Irish example:

"

https://www.rte.ie/news/regional/2020/0924/1167238-cycleway-dublin/

"Dún Laoghaire's Director of Infrastructure and Climate Action Robert Burns said new data gathered by the council shows that congestion has eased for drivers since the route was installed.

He said on the busiest day, which is Sunday, journey time for cars travelling from the city direction to Dún Laoghaire has dropped by four minutes from 13 minutes to nine minutes.

He said this is also the busiest day for cycling and to him that suggests some people are choosing to get out of the car and use the cycle route, a process sometimes described as traffic evaporation.

"

?Cee?view

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118546451#Comment_118546451

Thanks. Are there any reports that show that the fewer cars has led to more bikes? I suppose what I mean is, could the people in the cars just be staying away rather than changing to bikes (which obviously wouldn't be desirable)?

Unrealistic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118546343#Comment_118546343

I think it's a positive that traffic evaporation is being mentioned and brought into everyday discussion because it is an important part of the debate.

For a peer reviewed paper demonstrating that it is real this is a good option:

https://www.icevirtuallibrary.com/doi/pdf/10.1680/muen.2002.151.1.13

For something quick and easy, this is worth a look. https://thecityfix.com/blog/traffic-evaporation-what-really-happens-when-road-space-is-reallocated-from-cars/

While it can't be proven that this would arise in Salthill if the trail goes ahead, the fact that it is a widely verified phenomenon means it can be expected and the trial would give an opportunity for it to be demonstrated (or not, as the case may be).

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118546476#Comment_118546476

True one may get that, but it can also occur that people will change the travel patterns of there driving to the Prom so the distribution of car traffic is more even. Can also occur when price of fuel is rising - like is occurring at the minute.

Will see the same phenomena apply in the surrounding areas of Woodquay / Newcastle when the Salmon Weir Bridge is made into a bus gate.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118546397#Comment_118546397

They are protecting their children's lives and safety. The irony is that they are more efficient users of space than most of the 80% empty vehicles beeping and overtaking them.

CowboyTed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118545711#Comment_118545711

Well i saw three comment since 1st Dec

So approval from someone who is not from Galway and two against....

Where is the resounding approval of the proposals from December?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118546397#Comment_118546397

Won't jump down your throat at all 😉

Its a fair question.

So, from a legal perspective, a cyclist can take any part of the lane. They can also cycle 2 abreast legally. They can also cycle 3 abreast when overtaking. Thats the legal side of things out of the way, or as yer man says "thats the law and thats a fact".

As for the parts of the video where you can see 3 abreast, you could argue either way that one of the 3 were overtaking/being undertaken during the clip, without more of each clip it would be hard to say yay or nay in a definitive way.

As to the reasoning behind it, I'd ask you to put yourself in the bike seat of the people cycling near the white line and ask why they might be in that position in the lane. Its either (a) to protect the kids cycling on their inside from 2-3 tonne vehicles or (b) designed to produce a reaction.

As can also be seen multiple times during that clip, adopting a position close to the kerb encourages dangerous overtaking maneuvers with each one in the video showing cars coming within touching distance of adult cyclists, a few of the clips show child carriages on the back of the bikes with kids.

As well as the horn blowing to intimidate children, other issues of note include the the over-taking on a solid line and passing within 1 meter of a cyclist on a 50kph road.

I think if you were to go to every person in those clips and ask them, I think you would have 100% of them saying 100% of those situations would be improved for all road users with the addition of protected bike lanes. Segregate the modes, eliminate the X (with X = conflict, danger, delay, impediment etc etc etc etc)

CowboyTed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118546148#Comment_118546148

I think if they win it is nothing... Salthill is full of Solicitors and barristers that are going to be more that helpful to the people of Salthill...

Lets be clear there is only one Councillor supporting this from the West ward... Cllr. Higgins hasn't expressed views in the last few weeks... I think that should show you where public sentiment has gone for this...

So lost the councillors, the business community, emergency services including the Garda,.... Now it looks like it has been done legally either...

I said it was hair brained and I looking good...

xckjoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118546397#Comment_118546397

It's not that it's "blocking the cars on purpose", it's taking a central position on the road so you don't have people trying to squeeze past where there isn't space to do it safely. Cycling close to the edge of the road gives drivers the illusion of being able to safely overtake without them being sure that they can. So what inevitably happens is the drivers go for it, encounter a car coming the other way, swerve in to avoid that car and either hit the cyclist, force them off the road or under the tyres. It also doesn't leave any safety margin for the cyclist. If they hit a section of poor road surface (and roads are generally in worse condition near the side), they can end up under the car. Basically if you couldn't safely overtake a car sized object, you shouldn't be overtaking a cyclist. It's actually the same logic behind the 2 abreast cycling. I won't comment on the 3 abreast as that seems to be a sore point for people. I feel it would just be nit picking in this case anyway

I believe the same thing is taught if you're learning to ride a motorcycle. Take the centre of the road so people are less likely to attempt dangerous overtaking maneuvers. It's purely a safety thing. I don't think anyone on a bike cares about being overtaken, as long as it's done safely.

CowboyTed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118546451#Comment_118546451

They are saying it saved traffic on Sunday... Seriously are we putting this stuff in for Sunday traffic congestion?

Why weren't anyone campaigning about traffic congestion on Sundays in Galway?

Unrealistic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118546397#Comment_118546397

"But, at the start of the video for example, there are two abreast with the adult way out towards the centre."

I cycle this way if I'm with young kids too. If I don't, and I cycle behind the kids, it encourages reckless close passes from drivers coming from behind. It might be only 1 in 10 drivers but if you're overtaken by 50 drivers over the course of your journey that's 5 times your kids are put in serious danger.

"At approx. 1.02 and 1.10 bikes are three abreast (and yes, I know those are kids again)."

I think this may be the Knocknacarra Cycle Bus or someone people who are part of that adopting a similar methodology on an informal trip. I'm not part of Knocknacarra Cycle Bus but I've read their safety manual and I'm familiar with how they work. In theory, the kids stay in single file on the inside, some of the adults stay in single file on the outside as a protection buffer and to guide the kids, giving a two abreast train. Then you other adults going ahead to each junction, staying there while the cycle bus passes and then overtaking the bus again to reach the next junction. That is the one time when it is strictly legal to be three abreast on Irish roads; when a faster person is overtaking two slower people cycling two abreast. But in this case I think it might be more down to kids natural instinct to want to be beside one another to chat, and drifting out of single file.

Is this not just blocking cars on purpose? Is it designed to produce a reaction?

The intention is to highlight that the group of cyclists should be treated like a tractor or other slow moving vehicle, and drivers should wait for a gap in oncoming traffic and do a standard overtaking manoeuvre. If you don't do that, and stay to left, too many drivers won't slow down, will gamble that the gap between you and the oncoming car is wide enough for them and try to squeeze through with inches to spare. It's potentially lethal and you don't want it happening as an adult, never mind with young kids. The RSA recognises this and the latest edition of the Rules of the Road has a couple of sections about how cyclists should be taking the 'primary position' in certain situations.

The only reaction this type of road positioning is intended to produce is to get drivers to slow as they approach from behind, check for oncoming traffic, and overtake when safe to so. It's in no way intended to piss people off so, thank you for asking, because it's good to get an opportunity to explain the real motivations.

CowboyTed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118546487#Comment_118546487

Let put it this way...

Where is the study that shows the most used amenity in the City, the Prom will not suffer with access issues... At the moment people drive to and park on the Prom and go for a walk... That is what the cyclist want severely curb for traffic report which measures Sundays... People are very annoyed with this, poorly planned and thought out...

There won't be a councillor that touch this for years if you loose... If you loose big you could be talking at least a decade...

CowboyTed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118546397#Comment_118546397

I just see some bad drivers... It is highly selective...

Sorry we can do the same video of poor cyclists...

Some are beeping to make sure you know I am here, this is a practice which is done in India, saying don't drift out as I coming around you...

So the public consultation closed at 4pm. All that is left now is for the council to review the responses, present the summary of those responses to the councillors and the councillors choose options 1 or 2.

Outside of that we'll have to wait and see if a curveball is thrown (legal or otherwise)

?Cee?view

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118546684#Comment_118546684

What about Option 3?

zell12

Anyone noticing more motorists switching off engines at traffic lights? consequence of high petrol costs?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118546744#Comment_118546744

Option 3 is not going to be presented as an option according to a comment from the CEO (I think) in a recent article. I mentioned and linked to it on here in the last few days but I can't find it right now.

Basically option 3 was listed as an option purely to allow respondents a way to disagree with either option, but it won't be a final option.

Why they decided to do it like this, I couldn't tell you

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118546779#Comment_118546779

They didn't, it launched with Option 1 and 2 only. Donal Lyons and the Village Salthill used their influence to have it added.

It was never an "option" for consideration.

Unrealistic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118546776#Comment_118546776

Are drivers actively switching off or are there just more cars around now that do this automatically?

I remember the first time I encountered that. Rented a Volvo V40 on a visit to Finland 11 years ago and I was going through the usual stress of trying to figure out an unfamiliar car and find my way out of the airport and onto the road to my destination. The engine switched off at the first traffic lights and I thought I'd stalled and I was frantically turning the ignition when the lights turned green. By the third set of traffic lights it finally dawned on me what was happening. I used to read Car magazine every month at the time, so I had an idea this feature existed, I would have been very confused otherwise.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118546776#Comment_118546776

Cars have been doing this all by themselves for years.

That's why we should have amber before green so these people can kick their car back into life and be ready to go. Preferably put WhatsApp away too.

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118546617#Comment_118546617

I would suggest to read it again, they selected Sunday as it was the busiest day.

They could have selected any day - one can apply it to any day one chooses to measure.

Saturday or Sunday would be good measures to compare the Prom before and after; especially for the summer months. March -> May, mid week days would be useful when the Schools are open.

CowboyTed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118546779#Comment_118546779

It will be asked very quickly how may Option 3 were registered... If that is high, there will be trouble as this would look very anti democratic... They effectively would be acting against the will of the people...

Good Luck with that... If this isn't a resounding success someone's head goes on the block...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118546451#Comment_118546451

I live in the Dunlaoghaire area and traffic has never been worse and thats before many people working from home have to go back.

The Monkstown road is taking all the traffic heading to Dunlaoghaire now that half the coast road has been converted into a two way cycle lane.

The cycle lane is empty most of the day and putting a much heavier traffic burden on the Monkstown road has made cycling here much more dangerous. The only segregation on the Monkstown road is painted lines and the space for cars is two narrow so cars are encroaching on cyclists. Many people do not like cycling on the two way cycle lane as it can be full of lycra wearing speeding male cyclists so they cycle on the Monkstown road and its unsafe.

So when anyone talks to you about traffic evaporation I can tell you from personal experience its nonsense.

I am considering selling up now because traffic is backed up on my road all day,journeys that used to take a few minutes are now taking five times as long,cycle lanes are going in everywhere but from October to April there is little demand for this form of transport.

I feel my enjoyment of my neighbourhood has been impacted very badly and I say this as someone who has always cycled and managed to live fifty yearsof my life without demanding cycle lanes.

If you cant cope with cycling in traffic then maybe you should stick to walking on the footpath or drive or take public transport.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118546617#Comment_118546617

Yes, the two way cycle lane is mostly used for sunday outings and it was busy during lockdown because there was nowhere to go.

The sandymount two way scheme would have been utilised in the same way,nice trip on the bike for people,many of whom probably dont even live in the area.

It would have caused total chaos on the Merrion Road with traffic backed up to Dalkey and Sandymount village would have been destroyed,the cycle lane would be empty from october to April too.

The idea that people are going to get out of their cars and commute by bike is not realistic,some will but unless your workplace or your school is within five km of your home people will continue to drive no matter how unpleasant that experience becomes.

And the facilities in Dunlaoghaire and in Salthill and in every seafront area in the country need to be accessible to everyone but particularly the elderly and those with disabilities and no, suggestions to buy adult sized trikes is not a solution.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118546341#Comment_118546341

What is with that group of people spreading themselves over the whole road, I would never have put my children in danger like that.

Also one of the women has two children in another segment has two children in a cargo bike,neither child has a helmet on and neither has the mother.

I see this everyday, one woman was speeding downhill yesterday in a bicycle lane full of fallen leaves with traffic whizzing by, her three year old was not securely tied and neither did he have a helmet on. If the parent lost control of that contraption that child would have been turfed out head first into traffic.

Its so irresponsible, take whatever chances you want with your own safety but dont put your child in danger.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118546554#Comment_118546554

Fantastic support from locals for the cycleway throughout social media, I didn't actually realise how much the local people of Salthill wanted it until you bought it up on this thread. Shocking behaviour from some motorists on that video. Every beep and misbehaviour is proof that good cycle amenities need to be implemented and motorists need to be re-routed or retrained.

yer man!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118547362#Comment_118547362

You’d have a heart attack here in the Netherlands where I am, not a helmet in sight!