Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)

Dyr

FrancieBrady wrote: »

WOuld be good to be a fly on the wall listening to whatever the DUP are debating among themselves there before going to vote. Seems very animated, whatever is being discussed.

They're probably going to accuse someone of Witchcraft

Fogmatic

Can't remember if I already mentioned it, but it may be of interest that there are usually a few recent Brexit topics in the general section of the UK PC Advisor/Tech Advisor site. There's a good cross-section of British opinion there (but more contributions from over here wouldn't do any harm!). This is one if the latest Brexit threads
https://www.techadvisor.co.uk/forum/speakers-corner-16/brexit-deal-agreed-today-news-4712888/

I guess that means no pre christmas election

prawnsambo

Rjd2 wrote: »

Cummings and Johnson despite what twitter might think are not fools, but I don't see where they can make up the seats they will lose from Scotland and possibly remain tory areas.

They may be no fools, but they've done extremely foolish things. The double prorogation being one of them. All that did was waste time that they really needed to get their deal over the line and even that deal seems to have been cobbled together in a rush of panic over what no deal might actually mean. So now Johnson has lost face over his 'do or die' comment (another mistake) and is now going into an election without a finalised brexit deal. On top of which, he's alienated party members and the DUP. The latter couldn't really be avoided but the former was completely his own fault. Mistake after misjudgment. Dominic Cummings' "We'll see how clever Mr. Grieve is" was a perfect illustration of how far up their own fundaments they were.

Sam Russell

prawnsambo wrote: »

They may be no fools, but they've done extremely foolish things. The double prorogation being one of them. All that did was waste time that they really needed to get their deal over the line and even that deal seems to have been cobbled together in a rush of panic over what no deal might actually mean. So now Johnson has lost face over his 'do or die' comment (another mistake) and is now going into an election without a finalised brexit deal. On top of which, he's alienated party members and the DUP. The latter couldn't really be avoided but the former was completely his own fault. Mistake after misjudgment. Dominic Cummings' "We'll see how clever Mr. Grieve is" was a perfect illustration of how far up their own fundaments they were.

Well, having lost every important vote and action since BJ became PM tends to lend the lie to that. Talking of lies ---

hometruths

Just shows how monumentally f*cked UK politics is, that in some peoples minds the amendment allowing EU nationals to vote in UK general elections is perfectly reasonable.

farmchoice

schmittel wrote: »

Just shows how monumentally f*cked UK politics is, that in some peoples minds the amendment allowing EU nationals to vote in UK general elections is perfectly reasonable.

are you suggesting that eu nationals who reside in the uk should not be allowed to vote?

Joe_ Public

Provided they have resided in the uk for a certain period of time, its more than reasonable. Issue here is it would likely rule out a December election and probably even a Jan one too. Possibly not likely to be chosen by speaker anyway.

farmchoice

farmchoice wrote: »

are you suggesting that eu nationals who reside in the uk should not be allowed to vote?

In a general election?
We don't let EU citizens other than British vote here.

hometruths

farmchoice wrote: »

are you suggesting that eu nationals who reside in the uk should not be allowed to vote?

Yes. Is that a strange view to hold?

And I think it is a particularly bonkers suggestion in the context of the UK at the minute, more suited to extreme grass roots activists than the main opposition party.

farmchoice

Deleted User wrote: »

In a general election?
We don't let EU citizens other than British vote here.

dont we? i thought we did once they are resident have a pps no etc, i stand corrected if wrong.

KindOfIrish

schmittel wrote: »

Just shows how monumentally f*cked UK politics is, that in some peoples minds the amendment allowing EU nationals to vote in UK general elections is perfectly reasonable.

Not allowing British living in other EU countries to vote, that alone makes "the brexit referendum" void and shows how monumentally f*cked Uk politics is.

Hurrache

It's a pretty big constitutional change to allow EU citizens to vote in their GE, I don't think it's something that should be rushed through, anywhere, but especially a country that's trying to leave the EU. The obvious undercurrent is that they'd vote for pro remain parties and those advocating a 2nd ref.

My mind on allowing 16 year olds to vote changes with every 16 or 17 year old I interact it. But I suppose in fairness that also applies to adults currently allowed to vote.

farmchoice

schmittel wrote: »

Yes. Is that a strange view to hold?

And I think it is a particularly bonkers suggestion in the context of the UK at the minute, more suited to extreme grass roots activists than the main opposition party.

apologies i should have checked before i posted not after, no eu citizens can not vote in Ireland in parliamently elections only in euro elections.

hometruths

farmchoice wrote: »

dont we? i thought we did once they are resident have a pps no etc, i stand corrected if wrong.

They are only allowed to vote in local elections. This is in common with most of the rest of Europe, cannot think of any EU country that allows EU nationals to vote in their national/general elections.

ETA - sorry, just seen post above, no worries.

El Weirdo

farmchoice wrote: »

apologies i should have checked before i posted not after, no eu citizens can not vote in Ireland in parliamently elections only in euro elections.

And local elections.

hometruths

Even Luxembourg, where about 50% of the adult population are foreign don't allow it.

They had a referendum on it in 2015 which was defeated by 78% - 22%
Though obviously only 50% of the population were eligible to vote in it!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Luxembourg_constitutional_referendum

Strazdas

Hurrache wrote: »

It's a pretty big constitutional change to allow EU citizens to vote in their GE, I don't think it's something that should be rushed through, anywhere, but especially a country that's trying to leave the EU. The obvious undercurrent is that they'd vote for pro remain parties and those advocating a 2nd ref.

My mind on allowing 16 year olds to vote changes with every 16 or 17 year old I interact it. But I suppose in fairness that also applies to adults currently allowed to vote.

Given that a hard Brexit might impact on them in the severest way imaginable and they are UK taxpayers, one could argue they have every right to be involved in the vote.

Joe_ Public

Hurrache wrote: »

It's a pretty big constitutional change to allow EU citizens to vote in their GE, I don't think it's something that should be rushed through, anywhere, but especially a country that's trying to leave the EU. The obvious undercurrent is that they'd vote for pro remain parties and those advocating a 2nd ref.

My mind on allowing 16 year olds to vote changes with every 16 or 17 year old I interact it. But I suppose in fairness that also applies to adults currently allowed to vote.

Very salient points. Its the timing here that is as much an issue as the principle. EU nationals can vote in local elections, european elections, assembly elections, mayoral elections. But general elections? No can do. Why should that be?

Hurrache

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Very salient points. Its the timing here that is as much an issue as the principle. EU nationals can vote in local elections, european elections, assembly elections, mayoral elections. But general elections? No can do. Why should that be?

I suppose it's an argument that being allowed to vote for a country's government is that it's a privilege to citizens of that country. Although I do believe citizens of commonwealth countries are allowed to vote in the UK's general elections so that sorta puts a hole in that argument.

Kermit.de.frog

Hurrache wrote: »

It's a pretty big constitutional change to allow EU citizens to vote in their GE, I don't think it's something that should be rushed through, anywhere, but especially a country that's trying to leave the EU. The obvious undercurrent is that they'd vote for pro remain parties and those advocating a 2nd ref.

My mind on allowing 16 year olds to vote changes with every 16 or 17 year old I interact it. But I suppose in fairness that also applies to adults currently allowed to vote.

It's just another wrecking amendment by the remain elements in parliament trying to overturn the result of the referendum while avoiding an election at all costs.

Professor Moriarty

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It's just another wrecking amendment by the remain elements in parliament trying to overturn the result of the referendum while avoiding an election at all costs.

Great isn't it? More power to them.

Hurrache

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It's just another wrecking amendment by the remain elements in parliament trying to overturn the result of the referendum while avoiding an election at all costs.

How can they be avoiding an election at all costs when they have offered an election on the basis of 2 amendments being added? It's the Tory's that will be avoiding the election on this basis because they know what it will mean to allow EU citizens and those aged from 16 upwards to the numbers.

If they wanted to avoid an election at all costs they can simply sit on their hands and admire the fixed term parliament act.

Enzokk

schmittel wrote: »

Yes. Is that a strange view to hold?

And I think it is a particularly bonkers suggestion in the context of the UK at the minute, more suited to extreme grass roots activists than the main opposition party.

Well the UK allows citizens of the Commonwealth to decide who will be leader so I see no good reason why people from the EU should not be allowed the same privilege? Why is someone who is paying taxes any different to someone from France?

As for what could happen in an election, here is the view of Professor John Curtice,

https://twitter.com/theousherwood/status/1189177875997569024?s=20

So he is of the opinion of a split vote with a record number of non-Tory and non-Labour MPs getting in. This means Labour is most likely to form a coalition as the Tories would need a majority on its own to rule.

quokula

Hurrache wrote: »

How can they be avoiding an election at all costs when they have offered an election on the basis of 2 amendments being added? It's the Tory's that will be avoiding the election on this basis because they know what it will mean to allow EU citizens and those aged from 16 upwards to the numbers.

If they wanted to avoid an election at all costs they can simply sit on their hands and admire the fixed term parliament act.

It's also pretty clear that if the amendments don't pass (which they likely won't as the opposition don't have a majority without the Tory rebels, who side with them on Brexit specific stuff but less so on things like this), they'll still vote for the election.

liamtech

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It's just another wrecking amendment by the remain elements in parliament trying to overturn the result of the referendum while avoiding an election at all costs.

Thanks for clearing that up

Its obviously nothing to do with

• The fact that any Brexit will be bad for britain
• britain is being run by a man who puts his own career above his country, and his party for that matter
• The leave campaign lied through its teeth during Ref1, a campaign in which BoJo played a key role
• The fact that Scotland will, at its next oppertunity, leave the UK
• The fact that it has re-ignited Green V Orange Politics in NI
• The fact that the only reason BoJo is against Ref2 is that he would lose and his career would be over

Your right - its just those pesky remainers who have the audacity to care about jobs, the economy, the NHS, and the state of the Union - damn them and there progressive liberal politics

Vote Tory One One One - (NOTE: given the UKs antiquated electoral system, voting Tory no 1, Once, is sufficient)

quokula

Enzokk wrote: »

Well the UK allows citizens of the Commonwealth to decide who will be leader so I see no good reason why people from the EU should not be allowed the same privilege? Why is someone who is paying taxes any different to someone from France?

As for what could happen in an election, here is the view of Professor John Curtice,

https://twitter.com/theousherwood/status/1189177875997569024?s=20

So he is of the opinion of a split vote with a record number of non-Tory and non-Labour MPs getting in. This means Labour is most likely to form a coalition as the Tories would need a majority on its own to rule.

While I could see a Labour / SNP coalition (with Plaid, Green and Alliance support), I find it hard to imagine Lib Dems supporting one, based on their behaviour and rhetoric the past few years, along with the various new recruits.

They're basically just the remain-supporting wing of the Tory party these days and I could easily see a Conservative / Lib Dem coalition with some nominal concession on Brexit that allows them to save face, like a referendum on Deal / No Deal / Remain with a single transferable vote that practically guarantees the middle option of deal.

hometruths

My point was that it is yet another example of the extreme trench warfare that British politics has become thanks to Brexit.

Both sides are so fixated on the issue and divided that they are proposing absolutely bananas stuff just to frustrate the other side; little by little over the past three years they have all lost touch with reality and pragmatism.

That applies equally to: "don't worry if we have to ration medicines in No Deal, we'll suck it up just like the Blitz for the sake of getting Brexit done" or "we'll allow EU nationals to vote on strength of an amendment to a General Election bill"

Both of the above are extreme suggestions, that in any other time would be recognised as such. Now they are party policy.

It is mind boggling.

ambro25

Strazdas wrote: »

Given that a hard Brexit might impact on them in the severest way imaginable and they are UK taxpayers, one could argue they have every right to be involved in the vote.

Some of us already voted with our (ex-) tax-paying feet instead, and I'm quietly confident that many more will yet, before this charade is over.

So now I pay my taxes in Luxembourg, instead of Sheffield. And I don't mind no GE vote in Luxembourg, either: all political parties here, and the vast bulk of the (national) electorate, know very well which side of their socio-economic development is best-buttered by imported manpower -highly-skilled and not- so they look after us foreigners very well indeed, voting rights or not.

That 2015 referendum, btw: it's back on the political debating schedule, expect a rerun before long. I won't mind the result either way, either: it's about identity politics, sure...but with none of the xenophobia observed in the UK (and elsewhere).

The proof in the pudding is Luxembourg continually topping the poll league of pro-European sentiment (linked a few pages ago, IIRC).

On the topic of the UK allowing under-16s and/or taxpaying EU citizens a GE vote, it is just nonsensical posturing (or virtue signalling, take your pick): the operational record of the Electoral Commission these past 3+ years makes it clear that it would just be another organisational clusterf**** of epic proportions, with probably less than a quarter of those additionally entitled to vote by new UK legislation getting voting cards in time for the big day. Really plenty of form by the EC there (just lookup the sheer catastrophe that were the 2019 EU MEP elections in the UK on that front). And very under-reported in our brave new post-truth world, of course.

Joe_ Public

Lets be honest about it. If these amendments are passed it means there cant be an election for several months and gov would pull the motion. Whether so intended or not, it would effectively wreck the gov motion.