Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)

liamtech

quokula wrote: »

While I could see a Labour / SNP coalition (with Plaid, Green and Alliance support), I find it hard to imagine Lib Dems supporting one, based on their behaviour and rhetoric the past few years, along with the various new recruits.

They're basically just the remain-supporting wing of the Tory party these days and I could easily see a Conservative / Lib Dem coalition with some nominal concession on Brexit that allows them to save face, like a referendum on Deal / No Deal / Remain with a single transferable vote that practically guarantees the middle option of deal.

Unfortunately i agree with you

Tell me how

liamtech wrote: »

I’ve been wondering what the special place in hell looks like for those who promoted Brexit without even a sketch of a plan how to carry it safely.

- Donald Tusk

And damn right

The best thing about that quote from Tusk, was his emphasis on the word 'sketch'. It is never communicated quite as strongly when written.

Here it is again from the 19 second mark.

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1093118050352672768

Kermit.de.frog

liamtech wrote: »

And now ALL LEAVERS are adamant that there cannot be a second referendum

Yes.

I think most leavers would accept another referendum so long as the result of the first is carried out first.

Or is that too reasonable?

trellheim

The "guarantees" (the nonsense you are presumably going to bring up) given meant NOTHING. Defence and tax are up for grabs now.

We are screwed.

fk sake . quote TEU/TFEU paragraphs number that state that defence and tax are up for grabs and stop repeating daily mail headlines .

It is now 1223 days (as of writing this) that the Referendum by the UK to Leave the EU was held and 212 days since they were supposed to leave originally post A50 trigger. Its a disaster just for certain peoples agendas to come to the fore instead .

MadYaker

What happens to the Tory MPs who lost the whip if there’s an election? Can they still run as conservatives? Some of them are heavy hitters in safe Tory seats so you’d imagine Johnson would want them back in the fold.

gooch2k9

Have the DUP made any statement on their election stance today? I'm assuming it will be the same as yesterday as they had no red lines to be met.

For those that think they will lose seats to the UUP I wouldn;t bet on it. The UUP are seen as "done" in a lot of areas since the GFA, and unionists won't wander far from the DUP in case the other side get to much influence. Even a Brexit general election will only be about one thing in NI.

L1011

gooch2k9 wrote: »

Have the DUP made any statement on their election stance today? I'm assuming it will be the same as yesterday as they had no red lines to be met.

For those that think they will lose seats to the UUP I wouldn;t bet on it. The UUP are seen as "done" in a lot of areas since the GFA, and unionists won't wander far from the DUP in case the other side get to much influence. Even a Brexit general election will only be about one thing in NI.

They won't lose seats to the UUP themselves. But the UUP will suck votes away in some seats and allow SF or Alliance in

BorneTobyWilde

I think the Tories live in a world of their own where they think the whole country wants to leave under any circumstances. I see them getting a big waKE up call, this is not 2016, everyone now knows the score, and will vote for Lib Dems, SNP and Labour, and the wackos will vote for Brexit Party. Can't see them gaining a single seat.

An Ciarraioch

Extension now legally official:

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2019/10/29/brexit-european-council-adopts-decision-to-extend-the-period-under-article-50/?utm_source=dsms-auto&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Brexit%3a+European+Council+adopts+decision+to+extend+the+period+under+Article+50

Duane Dibbley

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

I think the Tories live in a world of their own where they think the whole country wants to leave under any circumstances. I see them getting a big waKE up call, this is not 2016, everyone now knows the score, and will vote for Lib Dems, SNP and Labour, and the wackos will vote for Brexit Party. Can't see them gaining a single seat.

I think the Tories will get a majority in the GE.

Kermit.de.frog

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

I think the Tories live in a world of their own where they think the whole country wants to leave under any circumstances.

Not true. They have delivered a deal that the EU supports. Not leaving under "any circumstances".

listermint

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Yes.

I think most leavers would accept another referendum so long as the result of the first is carried out first.

Or is that too reasonable?

Yes it is unreasonble. even the most ardent brexiteers (MOGG) said that a second vote on the final deal was needed.

Since when is this not acceptable to the likes of yourself a not so ardent brexiteer.

quokula

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Not true. They have delivered a deal that the EU supports. Not leaving under "any circumstances".

In fairness they only started negotiating that deal when the Benn act forced their hand.

And then they only half heartedly attempted to get it through parliament - parliament voted for it to get a second reading and go through proper due process, but the government pulled it and decided to try for an election rather than allowing any scrutiny.

Kermit.de.frog

listermint wrote: »

Yes it is unreasonble. even the most ardent brexiteers (MOGG) said that a second vote on the final deal was needed.

Since when is this not acceptable to the likes of yourself a not so ardent brexiteer.

Firstly i'm not British so I can't be a "brexiteer".

Secondly I don't care who said what about another referendum.

I respect democracy and I accept the vote and expect the decision to be carried out before any other options are considered.

I accept you are upfront in not accepting the majority vote, however. I think that is anti democratic but each to their own.

Enzokk

Hold your horses, there may not be a election after all,

https://twitter.com/joepike/status/1189210635374092288?s=20

Bumped into Dominic Cummings.

Me: Ready for the campaign Mr Cummings?
DC: We’re not going to have one.
Me: Really?
DC: They’ll vote for EU citizens and we’ll have to pull it.

So if they vote to enfranchise EU citizens then the bill will be pulled. The reality is that giving EU citizens a vote is easier than 16 year olds as they are already on the register and you could legislate that only those registered to vote in EU elections can vote in a general election.

I think it would make more sense to give 16 year olds the vote but logistically it makes more sense to give EU citizens a say. Another interesting night ahead watching Parliament,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moucT6XyaaI

Frank Bullitt

https://twitter.com/eucopresident/status/1189217874788925441

There is something tragically sad about this tweet.

liamtech

Enzokk wrote: »

Hold your horses, there may not be a election after all,

https://twitter.com/joepike/status/1189210635374092288?s=20



So if they vote to enfranchise EU citizens then the bill will be pulled. The reality is that giving EU citizens a vote is easier than 16 year olds as they are already on the register and you could legislate that only those registered to vote in EU elections can vote in a general election.

I think it would make more sense to give 16 year olds the vote but logistically it makes more sense to give EU citizens a say. Another interesting night ahead watching Parliament,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moucT6XyaaI

Its outrageous if they do that

English and other british citizens had the right to vote in the Scottish IndyRef1 - why wouldn't EU nationals have the right to vote now??

Cummings really is nuts

LeinsterDub

If the government pull it what's to stop the opposition putting their own motion forward?

Tell me how

Gintonious wrote: »

https://twitter.com/eucopresident/status/1189217874788925441

There is something tragically sad about this tweet.

I just copied the tweet and came here to post the same sentiment.
It really does feel eerily depressing. And to think that John Bercow is soon to exit the stage and that it isn't too long before Merkel moves aside, I have a sense that the dark times may actually be ahead rather then having come through them.

liamtech

I hope i dont get in trouble for this - but all these anonymous 'No 10 Sources are clearly Dominic Cummings - and this tweet sums it up nicely

https://twitter.com/Vadievi/status/1189219309219991553

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="und" dir="ltr"> <a href="https://t.co/o3l7Ae8yGV">pic.twitter.com/o3l7Ae8yGV</a></p>&mdash; Anthony Cunningham (@Vadievi) <a href="

https://twitter.com/Vadievi/status/1189219309219991553?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&quot;&gt;October

29, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js&quot; charset="utf-8"></script>

Rjd2

liamtech wrote: »

I hope i dont get in trouble for this - but all these anonymous 'No 10 Sources are clearly Dominic Cummings - and this tweet sums it up nicely

https://twitter.com/Vadievi/status/1189219309219991553

Alex Wickham who I like is probably the worst.

Alex just say its Cummings please.

Enzokk

liamtech wrote: »

Its outrageous if they do that

English and other british citizens had the right to vote in the Scottish IndyRef1 - why wouldn't EU nationals have the right to vote now??

Cummings really is nuts

Classic Dom I guess.


Jess Philipps just had her time on the bill, she is quite good. I will link Ian Dunt's highlights of her speech here and you can open the link and read his consequent tweets about her speech,

https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1189224879134052353?s=20


Brilliant speech that makes a lot of sense from someone not stuck in a bubble but who also has shown more guts to follow what she feels is right and not what is right for her career.

Kermit.de.frog

Amendments not selected.

Election likely to go ahead.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/oct/29/brexit-latest-news-general-election-debate-boris-johnson-faces-backlash-from-tories-over-plan-to-hold-election-before-passing-withdrawal-bill-live-news

MPFGLB

London will be key in this election

Traditionally a strong Labour area but the feeling is very anti Labour on the ground

I am looking forward to getting the odd flyer through the door and maybe a few candidates round for the first time ever
I live in Lambeth where no one campaign in GEs as the Labour majority is so strong
In past where i live no one would know there was an election on

I am guessing it will be very different this time

LeinsterDub

MPFGLB wrote: »

London will be key in this election

Traditionally a strong Labour area but the feeling is very anti Labour on the ground

I am looking forward to getting the odd flyer through the door and maybe a few candidates round for the first time ever
I live in Lambeth where no one campaign in GEs as the Labour majority is so strong
In past where i live no one would know there was an election on

I am guessing it will be very different this time

This election is going to be an unpredictable **** show. Brexit party will spoil Tories from the right, lib dem on the left. While Labour will also be out flanked by Lib Dems in certain seats unless they agree a pact. Expect to see people getting elected with 25% of the vote in places. No way it can be predicted

Rjd2

LeinsterDub wrote: »

This election is going to be an unpredictable **** show. Brexit party will spoil Tories from the right, lib dem on the left. While Labour will also be out flanked by Lib Dems in certain seats unless they agree a pact. Expect to see people getting elected with 25% of the vote in places. No way it can be predicted

Agreed. Be very wary of anyone right now calling any outcome with any certainty,,although obviously the experts on twitter will disagree.

Tell me how

Enzokk wrote: »

Classic Dom I guess.


Jess Philipps just had her time on the bill, she is quite good. I will link Ian Dunt's highlights of her speech here and you can open the link and read his consequent tweets about her speech,

Brilliant speech that makes a lot of sense from someone not stuck in a bubble but who also has shown more guts to follow what she feels is right and not what is right for her career.

Why aren't there more politicians like her though? Is it that people prefer politicians who seem to be talking about society and policy like they understand exactly what is going on.

People like Jess who are entirely motivated in representing their constituents best interests stand out as being unusual which is somewhat depressing.

Shelga

I don't agree with giving the vote to 16 and 17 year olds. 18 has been the legal age of adulthood for a long time and I think it's about the right age to be given the right to vote.

I do agree with giving giving people who've been living in the UK for a long time the right to vote in a GE- why not? The issues affect them as much as anyone else, and they should have a say. Say, any taxpayer that has been living there for 5+ years. I'd have no issue with bringing that in in Ireland either.

Regarding Labour's position on Brexit- I can somewhat see the logic in it, and they're in a difficult position, but it's going to be an extremely hard sell on the doorstep to Leave voters. "Vote for us and we'll drag on Brexit negotiations for another 6-12 months before even getting to the stage of bringing a BRINO WA to parliament, so we won't be able to make our own trade deals, and it may fail again, and then we'll be no further forward then we are today, or you can vote Remain, but we have no feelings on it either way."

Or you can vote for Tory/BXP, who'll offer you the easy soundbite solution you crave.

Kermit.de.frog

The Tories have the easy solution. They have a deal.

Give them a majority and deal goes through with no silly wrecking amendments.

Simple.

Mr.Nice Guy

I think Labour are playing with fire with the games they are playing over these amendments. I don't see this going down well with most of the electorate.