Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)

eire4

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I think Labour are playing with fire with the games they are playing over these amendments. I don't see this going down well with most of the electorate.

Agreed. I think Labour will suffer maybe even quite badly. The SNP I can see increasing its hold on Scotland from the current 36 of 59 seats to something in the 40's and the Liberal Democrats with only 19 seats currently could easily double or more that number.

manbitesdog

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I think Labour are playing with fire with the games they are playing over these amendments. I don't see this going down well with most of the electorate.

Over the exact date? Most of the electorate won’t know or care how the date was arrived at, and it will be ancient history by the time of the poll.

Zubeneschamali

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

They have delivered a deal that the EU supports.

They have negotiated two different deals that the EU agreed to.

They have delivered nothing as yet.

Mr.Nice Guy

manbitesdog wrote: »

Over the exact date? Most of the electorate won’t know or care how the date was arrived at, and it will be ancient history by the time of the poll.

Over this:

https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/status/1189136234557382656

manbitesdog

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Over this:

https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/status/1189136234557382656

I thought that wasn’t selected?

Edit: just doublechecked, it wasn’t.

Spanish Eyes

One option of many that was not explained to those voting was.....Norway style exit.

They are out of the EU, but have retained many of the benefits. Could have been a compromise solutiion but the ERG refused to contemplate anything other than a total exit.

At this stage let them at it. I feel so sorry for those who have been hoodwinked and are now members of the cult. But there we are.

Zubeneschamali

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The Tories have the easy solution. They have a deal.

Give them a majority and deal goes through with no silly wrecking amendments.

Simple.

Starting the next 10 years of national humiliation in trade talks.

No, the LibDems have the real easy solution. Revoke A50, things go back to normal. The end.

Mr.Nice Guy

manbitesdog wrote: »

I thought that wasn’t selected?

That there are Labour MPs pushing for it is the problem. If it were on the cards, the Tories would surely pull it and that would leave Labour look like they are playing games. It seems the Johnson/Cummings strategy is to offer a people vs parliament narrative, and Labour aren't doing themselves any favours with these ideas their MPs are throwing around which play into the Tory's hands.

Zubeneschamali

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

One option of many that was not explained to those voting was.....Norway style exit.

Sorry, voting in what, the Referendum?

Norway was the preferred option of many Leavers before the referendum, the Telegraph was in favour of Leave adopting it as the official position. But the Brexiteers charged straight past Norway to the hardest of Brexits immediately after they won, and May went with them.

It is still Labour policy to negotiate some sort of Norway style deal and put it to a referendum.

Capt'n Midnight

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

One option of many that was not explained to those voting was.....Norway style exit.

They are out of the EU, but have retained many of the benefits. Could have been a compromise solutiion but the ERG refused to contemplate anything other than a total exit.

At this stage let them at it. I feel so sorry for those who have been hoodwinked and are now members of the cult. But there we are.

They don't want Norway or Norway +
they want Norway + + + + + + +

IIRC its 7 BIG upgrades they want compared to the existing Norway deal on things like the four freedoms, passporting and other banking rules, Schengen, the UK wants a say in EU rules and Norway pays about the same per capita as the UK.

About the only issue sorted is the Irish Sea border means you don't need a Norway - Sweden/Finland type hard border.

Spanish Eyes

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Sorry, voting in what, the Referendum?

Norway was the preferred option of many Leavers before the referendum, the Telegraph was in favour of Leave adopting it as the official position. But the Brexiteers charged straight past Norway to the hardest of Brexits immediately after they won, and May went with them.

It is still Labour policy to negotiate some sort of Norway style deal and put it to a referendum.

I think I meant to post on another thread re Brexit, but you know yourself!

Anyway, I agree with you, and said similar.

manbitesdog

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

That there are Labour MPs pushing for it is the problem. If it were on the cards, the Tories would surely pull it and that would leave Labour look like they are playing games. It seems the Johnson/Cummings strategy is to offer a people vs parliament narrative, and Labour aren't doing themselves any favours with these ideas their MPs are throwing around which play into the Tory's hands.

Most people do not follow the machinations of Westminster in that kind of detail. These questions dominated the news cycle for all of about 3 hours on a Tuesday afternoon. And then they weren’t even selected. Only political anoraks will recall it at all in about a week.

Rjd2

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

That there are Labour MPs pushing for it is the problem. If it were on the cards, the Tories would surely pull it and that would leave Labour look like they are playing games. It seems the Johnson/Cummings strategy is to offer a people vs parliament narrative, and Labour aren't doing themselves any favours with these ideas their MPs are throwing around which play into the Tory's hands.

Steven Bush who is probably the best journo about (and to the left) was adamant all day these could not be selected. Posturing to say the least.

FrancieBrady

manbitesdog wrote: »

Most people do not follow the machinations of Westminster in that kind of detail. These questions dominated the news cycle for all of about 3 hours on a Tuesday afternoon. And then they weren’t even selected. Only political anoraks will recall it at all in about a week.

All the Tories are looking for is a general sense of Lab etc, blocking the 'will of the people' again.

Mr.Nice Guy

manbitesdog wrote: »

Most people do not follow the machinations of Westminster in that kind of detail. These questions dominated the news cycle for all of about 3 hours on a Tuesday afternoon. And then they weren’t even selected. Only political anoraks will recall it at all in about a week.

People don't need to follow it in detail:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1197214/General-Election-news-Labour-vote-Richard-Burgon-Corbyn-UK-EU-citizens-2019-Brexit

If there's a stigma out there that Labour wanted voters aged 16, as well as EU citizens, to vote, then that is something the Tories will gladly seize upon. It's already all over the news cycle and there are memes popping up at their expense.

Kermit.de.frog

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Starting the next 10 years of national humiliation in trade talks.

That is the UK's problem.

It is not a problem for us.

So I don't get it as a point of argument.

Tell me how

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

People don't need to follow it in detail:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1197214/General-Election-news-Labour-vote-Richard-Burgon-Corbyn-UK-EU-citizens-2019-Brexit

If there's a stigma out there that Labour wanted voters aged 16, as well as EU citizens, to vote, then that is something the Tories will gladly seize upon. It's already all over the news cycle and there are memes popping up at their expense.

The Express could hardly be used as to provide an unbiased general view on any particular topic.

prawnsambo

Apparently 10 of the Tory rebels have met with Johnson and have had the whip restored.

manbitesdog

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

People don't need to follow it in detail:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1197214/General-Election-news-Labour-vote-Richard-Burgon-Corbyn-UK-EU-citizens-2019-Brexit

If there's a stigma out there that Labour wanted voters aged 16, as well as EU citizens, to vote, then that is something the Tories will gladly seize upon. It's already all over the news cycle and there are memes popping up at their expense.

Yeah, memes on Twitter maybe, a site the vast majority of people have never even used. This will be forgotten about by tomorrow, and most of the people voting in December will probably never have been aware of it.

Tea Shock

10 of the 21 Tory's who had the whip removed a few weeks ago are back in the Tory party. One is not Amber Rudd which was surprising. They could have given it back to Ken Clarke seeing as he is retiring anyway - but no!

This could be the first hint of a new chaotic parliament (again) on the way!

FrancieBrady

Tea Shock wrote: »

10 of the 21 Tory's who had the whip removed a few weeks ago are back in the Tory party. One is not Amber Rudd which was surprising. They could have given it back to Ken Clarke seeing as he is retiring anyway - but no!

This could be the first hint of a new chaotic parliament (again) on the way!

Ken may have told him where to shove it.

Capt'n Midnight

Joe_ Public wrote: »

As regards votes for eu citizens or 16 year olds, would there be time to get them on the electoral register? It shuts down for november so not even sure they could make an application right now, unless they can make some provision for it.

Edit: just heard norman smith saying it would take a year to organise it, so not exactly relevant to the actual poll. Still doesn't stop the possibility of an amendment of course.

It's not going to take a year as many younglings and EU citizens are already registered to vote in the local elections. The issue is whether those already registered will be allowed to vote.

A millon a month is normal at the moment so "a year" is complete BS.
In total, 1,966,876 applications were submitted in the eight weeks to 27 October

Graphs
https://www.gov.uk/performance/register-to-vote/registrations-by-age-group#from=2019-06-01T00:00:00Z&to=2019-10-01T00:00:00Z




The councils in the UK already register people are 16,
or 14 if you are in Scotland.

https://www.gov.uk/register-to-vote

You’re eligible to register to vote in elections if you’re both:

aged 16 or over (or 14 or over in Scotland)
a UK citizen (or an Irish, EU or Commonwealth citizen with a permanent UK address)

...


If you live abroad
...
are a British citizen
left the UK within the last 15 years

CelticRambler

liamtech wrote: »

Because any other way would purposefully disenfranchise the leave vote. ...

Not if it was an STV choice - put all the leave options on the ballot, plus remain/revoke and let people rank their choice. That would be fair. Your suggestions are all variations on the them of "them or us" - the most undemocratic form of democracy, long proven to reinforce tribal/polar attitudes.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It's just another wrecking amendment by the remain elements in parliament trying to overturn the result of the referendum while avoiding an election at all costs.

Remind us again which part of "Take back control" the Leave campaign said they didn't want the UK parliament to exercise ...?

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Not true. They have delivered a deal that the EU supports. Not leaving under "any circumstances".

Who's delivered a deal? :eek: Last I heard, Johnson had taken the latest proposed EU deal and walked off in a huff with it ... :pac:

Kermit.de.frog

Arch brexiter Mark Francios has just been speaking in the commons.

This fellow a couple of months a go should have been arrested for impersonating a police officer in his own constituency!



:pac:

(no really)

kowloon

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

This fellow a couple of months a go should have been arrested for impersonating a police officer in his own constituency!

Is that not just a politician in a ride-along with the police? Maybe they had no non-police marked stab vests.

prawnsambo

kowloon wrote: »

Is that not just a politician in a ride-along with the police? Maybe they had no non-police marked stab vests.

Yeah, there are actual police officers there. Kind of nuts that they wouldn't have spotted Francois waddling around in their gear.

Kermit.de.frog

It is illegal for anyone else who is not a police officer to wear police gear regardless. There are no exceptions.

Meanwhile profanity on BBC parliament just now! :pac:

https://twitter.com/damocrat/status/1189261555172630528

gooch2k9

What time are the votes on? Just lads/ladies cursing and "debating" at the moment.

Strazdas

Prof. John Curtice making the suggestion that it might be difficult for Johnson to win a majority. He thinks the SNP and Lib Dems will score big and eat into the Con and Lab vote.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/shelagh-fogarty/professor-john-curtice-makes-surprising-prediction/

Tell me how

What is going on in the HoC is what regular Parliamentary debate consists of.
MP's expressing concern that children may lose time in practising for their school nativity plays and therefore there should not be an election and others suggesting that polling stations could be in pubs before yet another suggests that that might be culturally insensitive for many members of society to have to visit a pub in order to vote.

High drama it is not, but I'm strangely still listening to it.