Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)

Charles Babbage

First Up wrote: »

There isn't an EU passport line in Schipol (or Frankfurt). Its either Schengen or queue. Its electronic in many EU airports but Irish and UK flights still go through the passport control part of the terminal.

Not true.

EU citizens can use the machines and there is a short queue.

Russman

First Up wrote: »

Its highly probable the UK will join the 60+ countries with visa free access to the EU. They will lose some benefits of membership but they'll get 90 days. Enough for holidays and business trips but residency might need more.

But would that not depend on whatever policy the UK decide on, if the EU are going to go with a reciprocal arrangement ? Obviously whether Patel follows through on the plan or its just electioneering is another thing.

Surely the gaping hole is the NI border though. A car load of non Irish get off the ferry in Rosslare and head up to Larne and across. Are there already passport checks going from NI to GB ? I've no idea off the top of my head, but would have thought that whatever about goods being checked, the idea of passport control would freak the Unionists out altogether.

First Up

CelticRambler wrote:

Just thinking about it a bit more, this could play havoc with Ryanair's (and maybe Easyjet's) operations. They surely won't have access to the visa (waiver) database at the boarding gates in Stansted, Liverpool or East Midlands, so the Blue Passports won't be screened for visa compliance until they arrive at some regional airport in France or Spain or Poland, many of which have only one flight a day (if even that) and little in the way of holding facilities. I suppose airlines will have to add another box to their check-in process, requiring British passport holders to confirm that they have a valid ETIAS clearance.

Charles Babbage wrote:

EU citizens can use the machines and there is a short queue.

There ia no queue or check within Schengen

First Up

Russman wrote:

Surely the gaping hole is the NI border though. A car load of non Irish get off the ferry in Rosslare and head up to Larne and across. Are there already passport checks going from NI to GB ? I've no idea off the top of my head, but would have thought that whatever about goods being checked, the idea of passport control would freak the Unionists out altogether.

Passports are checked at Rosslare.

lawred2

The ETIAS program is two years away right?

First Up

First Up wrote: »

Passports are checked at Rosslare.

Not for British purposes though.
EU citizens can come and go.
Will Irish immigration be checking them to see if they have these UK permits incase they wander north of the border?

First Up

Deleted User wrote:

It depends on the airport. You might be lucky and have an EU queue. You might be unlucky like me and arrive late at night just after a flight from Uzbekistan.

Charles Babbage wrote:

EU citizens can use the machines and there is a short queue.

Well, yes - Irish and UK flights arrive in the "international" area and there can be an EU line in the passport queue.

But there is a queue and a check, either manual or electronic

CelticRambler

First Up wrote: »

OK; I hadn't realised they have to apply for the waiver in advance. But Irish and UK passports join that queue.

It's essentially the same as the ESTA system, or any other online/e-visa. I had the chance to experience a side-by-side comparison during the summer when I travelled to Kenya with my son. I had my e-visa bought and paid for two months in advance, he decided to get an on-the-spot (cheaper) visa. I was through immigration a full three hours before him, not because the process is inherently more complex, but I was in the queue where everyone had their documentation in order and he was in the queue where, by definition, everyone was missing something.

It'll be the same for the Blue Passport holders: by definition, as non-EU citizens, they'll need a visa waiver. It doesn't really matter whether or not they can apply for it at the destination airport (using their non-EU data plan) - they'll still need to be pulled off to one side while they wait for their application to be processed, with the risk of consequent knock-on effects on other transport connections.

First Up

Deleted User wrote:

Not for British purposes though. EU citizens can come and go. Will Irish immigration be checking them to see if they have these UK permits incase they wander north of the border?

For EU citizens I assume not.

WomanSkirtFan8

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Not for British purposes though.
EU citizens can come and go.
Will Irish immigration be checking them to see if they have these UK permits incase they wander north of the border?

With us staying in the EU and UK outside, one would have to assume this would more than likely be the situation.

First Up

WomanSkirtFan8 wrote:

With us staying in the EU and UK outside, one would have to assume this would more than likely be the situation.

Interesting question. We support each other for the CTA now but that's a sort of "mini Schengen" inside the EU. It remains to be seen if we are inclined to support a non EU country's immigration policy

WomanSkirtFan8

WomanSkirtFan8 wrote: »

With us staying in the EU and UK outside, one would have to assume this would more than likely be the situation.

How and why.
We do check arrivals from outside the EU for British immigration purposes - this suits us both.

Why would we be checking if say a French truck driver driving to Dublin and then returning to France has a valid Visa in case he decides to take a spin to see Armagh while here.

First Up wrote: »

Interesting question. We support each other for the CTA now but that's a sort of "mini Schengen" inside the EU. It remains to be seen if we are inclined to support a non EU country's immigration policy

Or if we even can. We probably could physically check it if we wanted to but it would be treating non Irish EU citizens as different which probably wouldn't be allowed.

First Up

First Up wrote: »

Interesting question. We support each other for the CTA now but that's a sort of "mini Schengen" inside the EU. It remains to be seen if we are inclined to support a non EU country's immigration policy

The CTA has been in place since the founding of the state when neither country was in the EEC/EU so there is no reason why it cannot work after the UK leaves the EU.


The CTA does not apply to non Irish/UK citizens, so no change there.

First Up

Deleted User wrote:

The CTA has been in place since the founding of the state when neither country was in the EEC/EU so there is no reason why it cannot work after the UK leaves the EU.

Nothing sacred or untouchable about the CTA. New laws over-ride old ones.

robinph

Deleted User wrote: »

The CTA has been in place since the founding of the state when neither country was in the EEC/EU so there is no reason why it cannot work after the UK leaves the EU.


The CTA does not apply to non Irish/UK citizens, so no change there.

If NI is resolved with a hard border "somewhere" and the rest of GB no longer in the EU then there is zero reason for Ireland to keep the CTA. In the absence of NI it just doesn't make sense anymore for Ireland to be in some weird agreement like that.

Charles Babbage

robinph wrote: »

If NI is resolved with a hard border "somewhere" and the rest of GB no longer in the EU then there is zero reason for Ireland to keep the CTA. In the absence of NI it just doesn't make sense anymore for Ireland to be in some weird agreement like that.

NI is never going to 'resolved' with a requirement for passports to go to GB, so this is fairytale thinking.

Winters

Charles Babbage wrote: »

NI is never going to 'resolved' with a requirement for passports to go to GB, so this is fairytale thinking.

Unless travelling from Ireland (26 counties) to Britain no? If we so choose.

First Up

First Up wrote: »

Nothing sacred or untouchable about the CTA. New laws over-ride old ones.

Would any Irish political party want to be known as the party that scrapped the CTA and have a border across the island!

robinph

robinph wrote: »

If NI is resolved with a hard border "somewhere" and the rest of GB no longer in the EU then there is zero reason for Ireland to keep the CTA. In the absence of NI it just doesn't make sense anymore for Ireland to be in some weird agreement like that.

It does for the hundreds of thousands of Irish citizens living and working in the UK as sell as the hundred or so thousand UK citizens living and working in Ireland.

CelticRambler

Deleted User wrote: »

robinph wrote: »

If NI is resolved with a hard border "somewhere" and the rest of GB no longer in the EU then there is zero reason for Ireland to keep the CTA. In the absence of NI it just doesn't make sense anymore for Ireland to be in some weird agreement like that.

It does for the hundreds of thousands of Irish citizens living and working in the UK as sell as the hundred or so thousand UK citizens living and working in Ireland.

The CTA is entirely in the gift of the British Government, who - as recently as 2008 - have shown a perfect willingness to scrap it in favour of "border security". That attempt was scuppered most notably by a certain demographic in NI who identify as British and objected most vociferously to the idea that they would be subject to any kind of border down the Irish Sea.

Hands up everyone who thinks that a Johnson-led government with Priti Patel in the cabinet would put NI sensibilities ahead of "border security" in the 2020s ...

CelticRambler

CelticRambler wrote: »

The CTA is entirely in the gift of the British Government, who - as recently as 2008 - have shown a perfect willingness to scrap it in favour of "border security". That attempt was scuppered most notably by a certain demographic in NI who identify as British and objected most vociferously to the idea that they would be subject to any kind of border down the Irish Sea.

Hands up everyone who thinks that a Johnson-led government with Priti Patel in the cabinet would put NI sensibilities ahead of "border security" in the 2020s ...

The main point of the CTA is the right to live and work without any hindrance in either jurisdiction if you are a citizen of either, the security measures were only for the transit between the two states, in reality verifying whether you were citizens of either country.
Any security measures were, I suppose to stop Islamic terrorists from using Ireland as a base to attack the UK.

CelticRambler

Deleted User wrote: »

The main point of the CTA is the right to live and work without any hindrance in either jurisdiction if you are a citizen of either, the security measures were only for the transit between the two states, in reality verifying whether you were citizens of either country.
Any security measures were, I suppose to stop Islamic terrorists from using Ireland as a base to attack the UK.

Well, no ... it was part of a long-standing desire by the UK government (i.e. GB government) to "take back control" of their borders. They weren't the least bit bothered by the rights of British or Irish citizens to live and work in the other country, and as equal members of the EU at the time, that wasn't really as much of an issue as it had been before (although it would have allowed GB to clamp down on Irish benefit spongers in England)

It was a huge deal for them to have to scrap an otherwise carefully constructed project because of the reaction of those NI-who-identify-as-British residents, and one has to wonder if abandoning the full package of customs and immigration controls envisaged prepared at least some of the terrain for the Brexit movement.

Edit: much of the CTA was suspended during the Troubles. I provided a link to an academic paper on the topic in a previous iteration of this thread.

reslfj

First Up wrote: »

UK passport holders already go through passport control entering Schengen. So do we.

Its highly probable the UK will join the 60+ countries with visa free access to the EU.

Alle passports are checked/scanned at both entry and exit from the Schengen area (including transit in an airport).

It will likely require more than a small FTA deal UK-EU and the deal it must include a section on mutual security for a UK passports to substitute a valid Schengen visa.

The EU27 is ready to negotiate the needed security text.
I think passports will end up being enough for UK and EU27 citizens traveling.

Lars

Please note:
Travel is not as such any part of EU's FoM rules, but is a part of each each country's immigration laws. FoM for people is in an EU sense about moving your permanent address and a right/duty to work within 3 months after the move.

For Schengen members these laws are identical for e.g. short time entry. This is then enforced at the Schengen non-Schengen borders (e.g. international airports) for people with papers (passports/visas).

Refugees and asylum seekers are totally another story.

reslfj

Russman wrote: »

... A car load of non Irish get off the ferry in Rosslare and head up to Larne and across.
Are there already passport checks going from NI to GB ?

Every person will have the go through passport control to enter the CTA - be that in Ireland or the UK.

All EU passports allows 90 entry into both Ireland and the UK. Why should EU citizens travel via Ireland to an UK destination, when they can as easily travel directly to the UK?

Lars

First Up

reslfj wrote:

All EU passports allows 90 entry into both Ireland and the UK. Why should EU citizens travel via Ireland to an UK destination, when they can as easily travel directly to the UK?

Some restrictions on entry may be applied after Brexit.

reslfj

First Up wrote: »

Some restrictions on entry may be applied after Brexit.

You need to document this.

If the UK will want a FTA of any substance and including security cooperation entry with normal EU bio metric passports will surely be part of such a deal.

The UK will need to find ways to attract and keep more people working in the UK. The populations are ageing in most other countries too.

You do understand that post Brexit UK will be have a very,very weak negotiation position ?

Lars

First Up

reslfj wrote:

You do understand that post Brexit UK will be have a very,very weak negotiation position ?

I understand that perfectly well. You asked why would people bother to enter the UK through Ireland. I explained to you that after Brexit the UK may impose restrictions on immigration from the EU so Ireland might be used as a back door.

Strazdas

Interesting stat this evening that there are only 380,000 Irish born people living and working in the UK in 2019, down from 430,000 in 2011.

Seems like Brexit is playing havoc with the migration stats (the recovery of the Irish economy would be another factor too of course).

CelticRambler

Strazdas wrote: »

Seems like Brexit is playing havoc with the migration stats (the recovery of the Irish economy would be another factor too of course).

Not exactly. Brexit has only exacerbated a trend that was already developing before the referendum was announced, i.e. the gradual repatriation of earlier immigrants when their home country's economy improved (largely thanks to beneficial membership of the EU). Brexit was fought on the basis of a mixture of obsolete ideas regarding EU migration and the (?deliberate) attempts to blame the EU for the UK's failure to control non-EU migration.

Strazdas

CelticRambler wrote: »

Not exactly. Brexit has only exacerbated a trend that was already developing before the referendum was announced, i.e. the gradual repatriation of earlier immigrants when their home country's economy improved (largely thanks to beneficial membership of the EU). Brexit was fought on the basis of a mixture of obsolete ideas regarding EU migration and the (?deliberate) attempts to blame the EU for the UK's failure to control non-EU migration.

One wonders though if Brexit has hastened the exodus. The same figures report that net EU immigration is down to 48k (a pittance for a developed country of 65 million people).