Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)

Dytalus

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I would rather not be a member of such a club that seeks to punish those who dare to leave particularly a country like the UK who have contributed so much financially and defence wise.

The EU have failed to overturn another referendum.

This is to be celebrated regardless of what side you are on.

It's not a case of 'punishing'. Once the UK leaves the EU, Europe will no longer be looking after UK interests - merely its own. The UK will not be a member, the European leaders will be under no obligation to take what the UK wants into account in future negotiations. Trade deals are not made to be altruistic, states aim to be as selfish as possible with them while still making sure the other side is happy to sign it. Nations do not conduct diplomacy to make things easy for the other guy. The UK has, with the rhetoric its used during the Brexit fiasco, likely burned down most good will it earned in the EU. When the time comes for diplomacy, the EU will be looking to get the best deal possible for itself, something it does when interacting with every non-EU country.

And the EU has proven very, very good at it.

And "the EU has failed to overturn another referendum"? What are you on, and can I have some?

The EU has no control over the UK's internal politics. It doesn't vote in Parliament, or appoint judges to its courts. The UK has failed to implement Brexit entirely of its own accor - the EU has only tried to protect itself.

Russman

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The EU have failed to overturn another referendum.

Care to give an example of them even trying to overturn the UK referendum ?

Russman

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I would rather not be a member of such a club that seeks to punish those who dare to leave.

So, if you didn't renew your gym membership, would you regard it as punishment when they don't let you use the facilities any more ?

Christy42

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I would rather not be a member of such a club that seeks to punish those who dare to leave particularly a country like the UK who have contributed so much financially and defence wise.

The EU have failed to overturn another referendum.

This is to be celebrated regardless of what side you are on.

No one tried to punish them. They have simply not bent over and let the UK make demands of the EU. If anything short of giving someone everything they could want is punishing that is a high bar.

This is an international agreement. The EU has looked out for its own interests nothing more. Why do people believe the EU owes the UK favourable treatment at the cost of EU members?

The EU has never tried to overturn the election. They would have welcomed it being overturned but they made no attempt at it.

But yay back on the Lisbon hobby horse as if we haven't been on that enough.

ambro25

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I would rather not be a member of such a club that seeks to punish those who dare to leave particularly a country like the UK who have contributed so much financially and defence wise.(...)

You still don't understand the redistributive nature of the EU, do you?

And is that a grudging acceptance of the case for an EU-coordinated approach to defence, that I spot in your Brexiteer prose?

CrabRevolution

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I would rather not be a member of such a club that seeks to punish those who dare to leave particularly a country like the UK who have contributed so much financially and defence wise.

The EU have failed to overturn another referendum.

This is to be celebrated regardless of what side you are on.

Are the EU "punishing" Ghana, Barbados or Thailand by not giving them the benefits of membership of the EU despite not being a member?

PeadarCo

Dytalus wrote: »

It's not a case of 'punishing'. Once the UK leaves the EU, Europe will no longer be looking after UK interests - merely its own. The UK will not be a member, the European leaders will be under no obligation to take what the UK wants into account in future negotiations. Trade deals are not made to be altruistic, states aim to be as selfish as possible with them while still making sure the other side is happy to sign it. Nations do not conduct diplomacy to make things easy for the other guy. The UK has, with the rhetoric its used during the Brexit fiasco, likely burned down most good will it earned in the EU. When the time comes for diplomacy, the EU will be looking to get the best deal possible for itself, something it does when interacting with every non-EU country.

And the EU has proven very, very good at it.

And "the EU has failed to overturn another referendum"? What are you on, and can I have some?

The EU has no control over the UK's internal politics. It doesn't vote in Parliament, or appoint judges to its courts. The UK has failed to implement Brexit entirely of its own accor - the EU has only tried to protect itself.

It's fairly standard Brexiter rhetoric. Any negative consequences most of which were pointed out by "project fear" and are continuely pointed out by opponents of Brexit are a result of the EU "punishing" the UK. The stuff you mention is a natural consequence of Brexit.

Zubeneschamali

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I would rather not be a member of such a club that seeks to punish those who dare to leave

Even if this was an accurate picture of the situation, you're saying you'd rather take the punishment? Prefer to suffer outside than sit inside the nice cosy club?

listermint

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I would rather not be a member of such a club that seeks to punish those who dare to leave particularly a country like the UK who have contributed so much financially and defence wise.

The EU have failed to overturn another referendum.

This is to be celebrated regardless of what side you are on.

I take it then, you will be renouncing your Irish Citizenship and moving to good ould blighty for the heave ho grind against the wheel to make UK great again ?


Whats that saying again, hurling from the ditch...

johnnyskeleton

Mod note:

I regret to inform posters that user "Brickster69" will not be joining us for the next 24 hours

Leroy42

I never understand this argument that the EU is punishing the UK. According to Johnson, Farage and the likes, the EU is nothing but a drain on UK resources and they get nothing out of it, in fact they are being held back by membership of it.

So what could the EU possibly do that would limit the UK, or punish them as they claim?

CrabRevolution

Leroy42 wrote: »

I never understand this argument that the EU is punishing the UK. According to Johnson, Farage and the likes, the EU is nothing but a drain on UK resources and they get nothing out of it, in fact they are being held back by membership of it.

So what could the EU possibly do that would limit the UK, or punish them as they claim?

It's similar to the "No-deal will be so devastatingly catastrophic for the EU that they'll fold and give us a deal on our terms. At the same time, no-deal will have negligible impact on us because we will simply plan for it" line. A paradoxical contradiction.

johnnyskeleton

Since we are talking about Brexit paradoxes, if the UK is so adverse to an unelected international body making rules for sovereign nations to follow, then they should logically do the decent thing and resign their UN Security Council Seat.

Or if not, maybe they should be honest with themselves and admit that they like the UN because they get to lord it over other countries and so that is good unelected international law, but the EU treats them as an equal so that's bad, albeit partially elected, international law.

Tell me how

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Since we are talking about Brexit paradoxes, if the UK is so adverse to an unelected international body making rules for sovereign nations to follow, then they should logically do the decent thing and resign their UN Security Council Seat.

Or if not, maybe they should be honest with themselves and admit that they like the UN because they get to lord it over other countries and so that is good unelected international law, but the EU treats them as an equal so that's bad, albeit partially elected, international law.

We are way beyond pointing out paradoxes.

Johnson talking about the problem with immigrants thinking that they own the UK was trolling level of commentary for someone who reminisces about the Empire.

listermint

Tell me how wrote: »

We are way beyond pointing out paradoxes.

Johnson talking about the problem with immigrants thinking that they own the UK was trolling level of commentary for someone who reminisces about the Empire. And is an immigrant himself

Fixed that up there for ya

ancapailldorcha

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Or if not, maybe they should be honest with themselves and admit that they like the UN because they get to lord it over other countries and so that is good unelected international law, but the EU treats them as an equal so that's bad, albeit partially elected, international law.

Realpolitik means that while all 28 EU members might be equal in EU law, they are not equal in terms of influence. When it deigns to do so, we have seen the UK lead the EU in an Anglocentric direction with the prime example being Margaret Thatcher pushing for the creation of a comprehensive single market during the administration of Jacques Delors.

Professor Moriarty

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Realpolitik means that while all 28 EU members might be equal in EU law, they are not equal in terms of influence. When it deigns to do so, we have seen the UK lead the EU in an Anglocentric direction with the prime example being Margaret Thatcher pushing for the creation of a comprehensive single market during the administration of Jacques Delors.

The irony.

sondagefaux

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I would rather not be a member of such a club that seeks to punish those who dare to leave particularly a country like the UK who have contributed so much financially and defence wise.

The EU have failed to overturn another referendum.

This is to be celebrated regardless of what side you are on.

Brexit is it's own punishment. The EU27 have done nothing to punish the UK, and won't be playing any part in a decision, if it happens, to have another referendum.

In fact, reports of what EU27 leaders have said at the European Council meeting suggest most of them want the UK to leave asap.

Here's some of that self-inflicted punishment that the Brits seem to want more and more of since they elected a Tory-led government in 2010:

https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2019/dec/10/number-of-europes-poorest-regions-in-uk-more-than-doubles

It's amazing what self-harm people will vote for when their national press is dominated by papers owned by far-right wing billionaires.

Kermit.de.frog

sondagefaux wrote: »

Brexit is it's own punishment. The EU27 have done nothing to punish the UK, and won't be playing any part in a decision, if it happens, to have another referendum.

In fact, reports of what EU27 leaders have said at the European Council meeting suggest most of them want the UK to leave asap.

Here's some of that self-inflicted punishment that the Brits seem to want more and more of since they elected a Tory-led government in 2010:

https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2019/dec/10/number-of-europes-poorest-regions-in-uk-more-than-doubles

It's amazing what self-harm people will vote for when their national press is dominated by papers owned by far-right wing billionaires.

This is all total nonsense feeding in to a narrative that countries have to belong to the EU to be successful.

No one is falling for that one and it will certainly stir a lot of debate across countries in the EU when the UK is perfectly fine and perfectly successful outside it.

This is what the EU naturally fear. They know the French, Italian, Germans will be looking on and it will drive debate.

It will certainly blunt the EU taking more sovereignty, that's for sure as countries ask why they have to abide by rules inflicted on them from Brussels and Frankfurt - particularly through the ECB.

This should be seen as a positive thing for meaningful reform of the EU and repatriation of powers to individual countries. We can also put an end to nonsense like an EU army and Parliament. We don't need any of these things.

Never did.

listermint

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

This is all total nonsense feeding in to a narrative that countries have to belong to the EU to be successful.

No one is falling for that one and it will certainly stir a lot of debate across countries in the EU when the UK is perfectly fine and perfectly successful outside it.

This is what the EU naturally fear. They know the French, Italian, Germans will be looking on and it will drive debate.

It will certainly blunt the EU taking more sovereignty, that's for sure as countries ask why they have to abide by rules inflicted on them from Brussels and Frankfurt - particularly through the ECB.

This should be seen as a positive thing for meaningful reform of the EU and repatriation of powers to individual countries. We can also put an end to nonsense like an EU army and Parliament. We don't need any of these things.

Never did.

Says the guy living it up in Ireland.

Always makes me amused.

Classic hurler from a ditch. Like. Literally he epitome of it.


Excellent. Keep up the obvious good work.

Kermit.de.frog

You say that but the reality is Brexit is happening and you have nothing positive to say just personal jibes.

The EU one way or another is a wounded, diminished entity and I know that hurts deep for some.

If your attitude prevails then they will have learned absolutely nothing from this and they will try business as usual taking more and more sovereignty (which I believe will ultimately end in tears).

We need reform and it takes big events like Brexit to drive reform.

PropJoe10

Gonna be interesting viewing this evening. You just feel that the likes of Kenneth Clarke and Phillip Hammond are going to be big misses from this next parliament, at a time when sanity and experience are needed. Interesting times ahead.

CrabRevolution

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

This is all total nonsense feeding in to a narrative that countries have to belong to the EU to be successful.

No one is falling for that one and it will certainly stir a lot of debate across countries in the EU when the UK is perfectly fine and perfectly successful outside it.

This is what the EU naturally fear. They know the French, Italian, Germans will be looking on and it will drive debate.

It will certainly blunt the EU taking more sovereignty, that's for sure as countries ask why they have to abide by rules inflicted on them from Brussels and Frankfurt - particularly through the ECB.

This should be seen as a positive thing for meaningful reform of the EU and repatriation of powers to individual countries. We can also put an end to nonsense like an EU army and Parliament. We don't need any of these things.

Never did.

You still haven't explained why any country should get the benefits of being in a club despite not being a member, and why not getting those benefits is "punishment".

maebee

Sky News exit poll predicting 368 seats for Conservatives, 191 for Labour. Johnson will have his majority. The DUP will be surplus to requirements.

irishproduce

If the conservatives get a large majority. I think it shows that those in parliament who conspired to slow it and stop were in fact acting against the will of the people all along.

McGiver

Kermit.de.frog wrote:

This is all total nonsense feeding in to a narrative that countries have to belong to the EU to be successful.

Name one European country that is successful (whatever the definition of that is) and:
1.is not a member of the EU
2. is not closely associated with it
3. doesn't have oil (or other import natural resources)
4. is not a micro/city state
5. is not a tax haven or OFC

Think we'll be waiting for your list of countries for a long time.

McGiver

Kermit.de.frog wrote:

This is what the EU naturally fear. They know the French, Italian, Germans will be looking on and it will drive debate.

The EU is the Germans, the Italians, the French......

Akrasia

maebee wrote: »

Sky News exit poll predicting 368 seats for Conservatives, 191 for Labour. Johnson will have his majority.

The British will deserve the mess they are going to find themselves in

Duke of Url

Glad the election is completed. Brexit can now start and NI and Scotland can decide their futures.

Also the EU can move on.

thecretinhop

u leftie clowns have taking a beating.. go on de kermit