Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)

brickster69

RobMc59 wrote: »

This could all become a struggle for power between the EU and a UK which in effect will be nothing more than a vassal state of an increasingly voracious US which sees the EU as a threat.I suspect this could be the case regardless of who is in power in the whitehouse.
The UK as we know it is done for imo but the new version that emerges could potentially be an even more destabilising toxic place,more akin to putin`s russia.
Any kind of success on a world stage for this new Britain/UK will be a threat to the EU`s ambitions for the future.
I hope in the future that the UK realises the disastrous course it has taken is a mistake and will attempt to rejoin the EU but I think the rest of the EU has quite rightly had a bellyful of the UK.

First thing Boris will do now is to repeal the Benn Act.

sondagefaux

brickster69 wrote: »

First thing Boris will do now is to repeal the Benn Act.

It becomes moot anyway once the Withdrawal Agreement Bill is enacted.

Spanish Eyes

What will we do if the WA is enacted and things go on as before, while it is a uk issue regarding all their potentially magnificent Trade Agreements with non EU?

Mass hysteria or shrug of the shoulders? Feck them is my view, but anyway.

ltd440

Now that Boris has his majority, does anybody think it will be plain sailing and that he will have the UK out by 1st of Feb.

Or is going to have to have some faux argument with the EU so he can claim it as a victory/bloody nose against the oppressors even if it takes longer, basically like taking the long way around to get to WA

FrancieBrady

ltd440 wrote: »

Now that Boris has his majority, does anybody think it will be plain sailing and that he will have the UK out by 1st of Feb.

Or is going to have to have some faux argument with the EU so he can claim it as a victory/bloody nose against the oppressors even if it takes longer, basically like taking the long way around to get to WA

Cynical me could see him using the DUP's demands to go back looking to change the WA and use that failure to crash them out.

Not quite convinced that his ultimate goal isn't to cash in the chips of the financial speculators/pariahs like Moggs etc

Rjd2

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Cynical me could see him using the DUP's demands to go back looking to change the WA and use that failure to crash them out.

Not quite convinced that his ultimate goal isn't to cash in the chips of the financial speculators/pariahs like Moggs etc

Who knows with Boris.

I'd be willing to bet that with his current majority the DUP will not enter his thoughts for a long time. He seemed genuinely pissed of with them regarding the last brexit bill. DUP have a remarkable knack of alienating everyone who deals with them.

FrancieBrady

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Ireland, Spain and Cyprus have obtained what effectively amounts to a veto over the elements of the Withdrawal Agreement regarding their respective national concerns:

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1205509343900241925

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1205509348308455425

Compare and contrast to the representation given to the affected parts of the UK (Scotland NI and Wales) as their 'Union' negotiated the future. Locked out with a 'leave it to your betters' colonial arrogance.

Rjd2 wrote: »

Who knows with Boris.

I'd be willing to bet that with his current majority the DUP will not enter his thoughts for a long time. He seemed genuinely pissed of with them regarding the last brexit bill. DUP have a remarkable knack of alienating everyone who deals with them.

I never intended to imply he would use them because he was concerned about them. He would use them for his own ends.

woohoo!!!

As a soon to be third country, all the talks will be left to the negotiators. EU leaders simply won't be meeting Johnson as much anymore, not that they particularly want to. They'll be looking after their own countries interests and UK is a rival competitor. More poaching of UK business, more get their skilled expats home. If I was there and not tied down, then I'd exit for sure.

Sturgeon will play Johnson like a fiddle, bide her time and set out to make it inevitable that Scotland's future is outside the UK, which an arrogant Westminster will ably assist with.

Hard to see the NI assembly ever getting up and running again, DUP arrogance will live long in the memory.

FrancieBrady

woohoo!!! wrote: »

As a soon to be third country, all the talks will be left to the negotiators. EU leaders simply won't be meeting Johnson as much anymore, not that they particularly want to. They'll be looking after their own countries interests and UK is a rival competitor. More poaching of UK business, more get their skilled expats home. If I was there and not tied down, then I'd exit for sure.

Sturgeon will play Johnson like a fiddle, bide her time and set out to make it inevitable that Scotland's future is outside the UK, which an arrogant Westminster will ably assist with.

Hard to see the NI assembly ever getting up and running again, DUP arrogance will live long in the memory.

I suspect the Assembly will be up and running again shortly. The DUP need it to rebuild some semblance of control. Mind you they could drastically miscalculate again and dig their hole a bit deeper.

Bit cynical

ltd440 wrote: »

Now that Boris has his majority, does anybody think it will be plain sailing and that he will have the UK out by 1st of Feb.

Or is going to have to have some faux argument with the EU so he can claim it as a victory/bloody nose against the oppressors even if it takes longer, basically like taking the long way around to get to WA

Pretty sure they will be out on that day and into the transition period.

Bit cynical

ballsymchugh wrote: »

because it wasn't a deal that labour brexiters could vote for (bar a few kate hoey types). if it was a norway style deal or had continued customs union, then it could have been wrapped up ages ago. May alienated moderates in her own party, never mind the opposition.

Sure and that point was made earlier. But a Norway style deal was never on offer by the UK government. It was always May's deal or a harder deal. By voting against May's deal they, in effect, voted for the harder deal. They made themselves useful idiots for the ERG.

Water John

No doubt the UK will be out on the 31st Jan 2020. It's then the real negotiations start. The EU already have via Merkel and Macron laid down real markers.
It's towards the end of next year we'll see what Johnson is made of.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/13/brexit-eu-leaders-call-for-swift-ratification-after-tory-victory

RobMc59

woohoo!!! wrote: »

As a soon to be third country, all the talks will be left to the negotiators. EU leaders simply won't be meeting Johnson as much anymore, not that they particularly want to. They'll be looking after their own countries interests and UK is a rival competitor. More poaching of UK business, more get their skilled expats home. If I was there and not tied down, then I'd exit for sure.

Sturgeon will play Johnson like a fiddle, bide her time and set out to make it inevitable that Scotland's future is outside the UK, which an arrogant Westminster will ably assist with.

Hard to see the NI assembly ever getting up and running again, DUP arrogance will live long in the memory.

As a British person I'm gutted about leaving the EU but am trying to be philosophical over it. It's plain to see by the continued 'UK bad, and they're going to pay' rhetoric still evident here that perhaps Irish posters haven't adopted that attitude -if it goes pear shaped for Johnson he has no one else to blame it's all his own doing,along with the idiots who betrayed their class by voting for him.

Bit cynical

woohoo!!! wrote: »

Hard to see the NI assembly ever getting up and running again, DUP arrogance will live long in the memory.

However remember the NI assembly need to meet and vote periodically in order to maintain the protocol on the special status for NI. Can't do that if they are not in session.

X111111111111

It's incredibly depressing that the remain side have taken so long to accept the democractic will of the majority of the UK. They have spent the last few years doing anything they can, throwing huge amounts of money and spin on overturning the result of a referendum exhausting every single avenue in an attempt to get their way. The parallels with the democracts in the US refusing to recognise president Trump as their President is uncanny. Liberals have to learn to accept democracy and all the trapping that come with it.

timetogo1

X111111111111 wrote: »

It's incredibly depressing that the remain side have taken so long to accept the democractic will of the majority of the UK. They have spent the last few years doing anything they can, throwing huge amounts of money and spin on overturning the result of a referendum exhausting every single avenue in an attempt to get their way. The parallels with the democracts in the US refusing to recognise president Trump as their President is uncanny. Liberals have to learn to accept democracy and all the trapping that come with it.

Well the anti EU side took 40 years and finally got their way. It's only been 3 years since the referendum.

looksee

RobMc59 wrote: »

As a British person I'm gutted about leaving the EU but am trying to be philosophical over it. It's plain to see by the continued 'UK bad, and they're going to pay' rhetoric still evident here that perhaps Irish posters haven't adopted that attitude -if it goes pear shaped for Johnson he has no one else to blame it's all his own doing,along with the idiots who betrayed their class by voting for him.

Why should the Irish be philosophical about Brexit? I am also a Brit, and disgusted with the result - and have lost a great deal of interest in the whole thing, let them stew. But for Ireland it means upset, expense and aggravation over something that is not of their making.

First Up

X111111111111 wrote:

It's incredibly depressing that the remain side have taken so long to accept the democractic will of the majority of the UK. They have spent the last few years doing anything they can, throwing huge amounts of money and spin on overturning the result of a referendum exhausting every single avenue in an attempt to get their way. The parallels with the democracts in the US refusing to recognise president Trump as their President is uncanny. Liberals have to learn to accept democracy and all the trapping that come with it.

The delays to Brexit have been caused by the failure of those democratically elected to the UK parliament to support the agreement between the EU and not one but two UK Prime Ministers. You can't have it both ways.

There is much satisfaction in Brussels and across the 27 that the UK might finally be able to govern itself and we can all move on.

RobMc59

looksee wrote: »

Why should the Irish be philosophical about Brexit? I am also a Brit, and disgusted with the result - and have lost a great deal of interest in the whole thing, let them stew. But for Ireland it means upset, expense and aggravation over something that is not of their making.

I feel exactly the same but it's done and we all have to suck it up and get on with it whether we like it or not.

woohoo!!!

RobMc59 wrote: »

As a British person I'm gutted about leaving the EU but am trying to be philosophical over it. It's plain to see by the continued 'UK bad, and they're going to pay' rhetoric still evident here that perhaps Irish posters haven't adopted that attitude -if it goes pear shaped for Johnson he has no one else to blame it's all his own doing,along with the idiots who betrayed their class by voting for him.

The opposition towards the end only really had a stop Johnson and another hung parliament message. Or yet more paralysis. Also, Corbyn was very clearly off putting. So looking back, no wonder that enough folk voted to give Johnson his majority, even if it was a hold your nose vote. Either way, the EU wanted a decisive win and get on with it, and a reluctant UK was never ideal.

From an Irish perspective, there is an acceptance that we're on a different course to UK and if this sets us in conflict, then we need to defend our interests. We'll see more of this during the upcoming negotiations. And there will be villification of the other side from both quarters as we've seen to date. The days of paddy tugging the cap at his betters are done.

Ultimately this expression of English nationalism, which drives Brexit, is likely to see the break up of the union. The genie is out of the bottle and there's no going back. I do look forward to Brexiteer exceptionalism being disappointed in the months and years ahead, of course the EU being blamed will cover up their own inadequacies.

woohoo!!!

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I suspect the Assembly will be up and running again shortly. The DUP need it to rebuild some semblance of control. Mind you they could drastically miscalculate again and dig their hole a bit deeper.

It'll take a lot of back tracking from the intransigent position that the DUP have hoisted their petard on. And I suspect all they have is more of the same. Thankfully, more and more folk are seeing them for exactly what they are, supremacists.

J Mysterio

This whole episode has strongly affected my view of the UK and English people in particular. I had thought them to be quite pragmatic, sensible and decent. That is no longer the case.

It has also reaffirmed my support for the EU. I will strongly support them in the upcoming negotiations. The UK can not be allowed competitive advantage. Their relationship to and with the EU will be inferior to what they now enjoy.

I still believe the whole episode to be a catastrophic misjudgement by UK politicians and public, but it will be very difficult to sympathise with them when it inevitably goes pear shaped and they suffer for their hubris. The UK had a chance to look at the reality - the truth - and reevaluate. They doubled down in this election and they will deserve what they get.

J Mysterio

Just look at the current cabinet. These people have been given a vote of confidence and have been returned as MPs (Morgan - who didnt stand - aside). It is a list of Tories almost unparalleled in their ignorance, arrogance, ineptitude and nastiness.

PM: Boris Johnson

Foreign Affairs: Dominic Raab

Chancellor: Sajid Javid

Home Secretary: Priti Patel

Duchy of Lancaster: Michael Gove

Health: Matt Hancock

Business: Andrea Leadsom

Trade: Liz Truss

Education: Gavin Williamson

Environment, Rural Affairs: Theresa Villiers

Digital, Culture, Media, Sport: Nicky Morgan

Chairman: James Cleverly

LuckyLloyd

J Mysterio wrote: »

Just look at the current cabinet. These people have been given a vote of confidence and have been returned as MPs. It is a list of Tories almost unparalleled in their ignorance, arrogance, ineptitude and nastiness.

PM: Boris Johnson

Foreign Affairs: Dominic Raab

Chancellor: Sajid Javid

Home Secretary: Priti Patel

Duchy of Lancaster: Michael Gove

Health: Matt Hancock

Business: Andrea Leadsom

Trade: Liz Truss

Education: Gavin Williamson

Environment, Rural Affairs: Theresa Villiers

Digital, Culture, Media, Sport: Nicky Morgan

Chairman: James Cleverly

Arguably the most right wing cabinet since before the welfare state.

ancapailldorcha

I'm actually much more worried about Britain's constitution than I am about Brexit. The argument that Johnson is devoid of ideology and lazy collapses here when he can just delegate to people who have rather repugnant views. I'm so grateful for the EU as the kind of damage that Priti Patel could wreak on Ireland without it would be horrific.

ancapailldorcha

J Mysterio wrote: »

This whole episode has strongly affected my view of the UK and English people in particular. I had thought them to be quite pragmatic, sensible and decent. That is no longer the case.

It has also reaffirmed my support for the EU. I will strongly support them in the upcoming negotiations. The UK can not be allowed competitive advantage. Their relationship to and with the EU will be inferior to what they now enjoy.

I still believe the whole episode to be a catastrophic misjudgement by UK politicians and public, but it will be very difficult to sympathise with them when it inevitably goes pear shaped and they suffer for their hubris. The UK had a chance to look at the reality - the truth - and reevaluate. They doubled down in this election and they will deserve what they get.

I have to say that my enthusiasm for living here has suffered more than a few dents over the years. London is such a wonderful, diverse cosmopolitan city but there's just so much ugliness in British society today.

Various parties have allowed most of the country to rot and because FPTP means that you can win with a lot less than half of the popular vote so that Southeastern England governs the whole of the UK and, quel surprise the country is governed in their interests. Even Blair could only win by courting the Conservative vote.

It's hard for me to argue otherwise. We know what Johnson is. Clearly and truly and yet the electorate voted for him. I think they need to have their Brexit now along with whatever constitutional havoc he intends to wreak. They truly deserve it at this stage.

A Dub in Glasgo

Good piece from Tony Connelly on the RTE website. Some home truths are about to hit Johnson

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2019/1213/1099064-tory-landslide-irish-sea/

McGiver

sondagefaux wrote:

Albania? Belarus? Bosnia-Hercegovina? Georgia? Kosovo? Moldova? Montenegro? North Macedonia? Serbia? Russia? Turkey? Ukraine?

San Marino and Monaco....

J Mysterio

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Good piece from Tony Connelly on the RTE website. Some home truths are about to hit Johnson

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2019/1213/1099064-tory-landslide-irish-sea/

I simply won't be able to further accept or tolerate any Britishers future complaints about Johnson having mislead them or their crying out that 'this wasn't what they voted for' etc. etc.

The public made their horrible choice in the EU referendum and they have more than doubled down on it with a huge Johnson Tory majority, despite all that transpired in the meanwhile.

They were lied to in the referendum and it was pointed out. Leave cheated and broke the law, but that wasn't worth properly investigating. No time to ensure the proper working of their democracy, just ignore the reality and facts and carry on.

The ridiculous idea that carries such weight: 'we had a vote and leave won, that's democracy'. Well, no. It wasn't democracy. It was cheating and lies created from within and without to unfairly influence a badly misjudged advisory referendum. It was illegitimate in innumerable ways.

Virtually the entire cabinet has screwed up several times with massive gaffes, lied, shifted their positions and intentionally mislead the public, yet they are returned and entrusted with the future of the UK and dragging it out of the EU to some vague promised land.

Toxic nationalism (arrogance, exceptionalism) and a society sick with a corrupt media unfettered by serious regulation, promoting hate and division to further the interest of a priviliged few.

CelticRambler

McGiver wrote: »

San Marino and Monaco....

The former is very closely aligned with Italy; the latter is very closely aligned with France. Not sure the Brits could cope with the open borders and vassal-state-like compliance with so many EU directives.