Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)

Enzokk

If you have an agreement with another person or entity and within that agreement there is a clause that either may request an extension of talks to secure a deal, what does it say when one side unilaterally decides to rip up that part of the already reached agreement?

https://twitter.com/PietEeckhout/status/1206956676638744577?s=20

Everyone always looks at the extension as something the UK may want to ask for. But the Agreement is neutral: the EU may want to ask for this as well: see Art 132(1). Who says the EU has never had this in mind when negotiating the Agreement? 3/

And even if the EU did not have this in mind: the text is clear: there is scope for an extension decision by the Joint Committee before 1 July 2020. But the Bill will exclude this even before the Agreement enters into force. 4/

So if Johnson does this, it goes against the good faith principle in the agreement and would not be a good first step to deal with the EU as a third country.

https://twitter.com/JMPSimor/status/1206963961112989699?s=20

Bit cynical

Enzokk wrote: »

So if Johnson does this, it goes against the good faith principle in the agreement and would not be a good first step to deal with the EU as a third country.

https://twitter.com/JMPSimor/status/1206963961112989699?s=20

It could be amended so that it would not apply in the event that the EU requested, in which case the UK would consider that request, but the UK would not initiate a request itself.

Bit cynical

Enzokk wrote: »

So if Johnson does this, it goes against the good faith principle in the agreement and would not be a good first step to deal with the EU as a third country.

https://twitter.com/JMPSimor/status/1206963961112989699?s=20

It could be amended so that it would not apply in the event that the EU requested, in which case the UK would consider that request, but the UK would not initiate a request itself.

In any case I think it is more a signal of intent rather than anything else. If the UK really wanted an extension they would repeal the Act and then request it.

Enzokk

Bit cynical wrote: »

It could be amended so that it would not apply in the event that the EU requested, in which case the UK would consider that request, but the UK would not initiate a request itself.

In any case I think it is more a signal of intent rather than anything else. If the UK really wanted an extension they would repeal the Act and then request it.

It could, but that would run contrary to the Johnson bluster about leaving on the 31st December 2020 and how much money it is costing the UK to stay. The costs increase if the transition is extended. So once again the hope is that Johnson will break another promise he made to the electorate to just keep the negotiations on a good footing, not even to get a deal.

So another point to watch in the negotiations on how Johnson will juggle all of the balls that is in the air still. Also, I got the idea that Tusk was always pragmatic when it came to messaging the domestic audiences, do we know how the new EU President will approach this? Will the reaction be as pragmatic with a third country?

brickster69

Enzokk wrote: »

Also, I got the idea that Tusk was always pragmatic when it came to messaging the domestic audiences, do we know how the new EU President will approach this? Will the reaction be as pragmatic with a third country?

Yeah very pragmatic Tusk is. Good job Markel never did it or her car industry would be destroyed.

https://twitter.com/donaldtuskEPP/status/1202532538033590272

J Mysterio

That's a remarkable image.

lawred2

That's not really a gun thing he's doing with his fingers is it? Why would he put that picture of himself doing that up?

Water John

Maybe he just has a sense of humour. He is also retiring and doesn't give a fiddlers.

Strazdas

lawred2 wrote: »

That's not really a gun thing he's doing with his fingers is it? Why would he put that picture of himself doing that up?

Not a 'finger gun' sign anyway....the thumb is always raised when doing that

Mr.Nice Guy

Stupid thing to tweet out. It does look like a gun and from reading the reaction it's what you'd expect from the Trump/Brexit supporters.

hotmail.com

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Stupid thing to tweet out. It does look like a gun and from reading the reaction it's what you'd expect from the Trump/Brexit supporters.

What's the connection between Brexit voters who are British and Americans who vote for Trump. Do Irish people just throw out Trump stuff now during every debate on politics.

Mr.Nice Guy

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Stupid thing to tweet out. It does look like a gun and from reading the reaction it's what you'd expect from the Trump/Brexit supporters.

Agreed.

It's a disgraceful image; clearly a provocation as if to say, "Wish I could shoot this guy".

As a long-standing, seasoned - often respected politician, Tusk should know better.

If Nigel Farage did this to a very senior liberal political leader, we know what the reaction would be.

54and56

Enzokk wrote: »

So if Johnson does this, it goes against the good faith principle in the agreement and would not be a good first step to deal with the EU as a third country.

Isn't the proposal that the new law would prevent the PM from asking for an extension? That wouldn't preclude the EU from asking for and BoJo accepting their request for an extension.

The right in the PD for both parties to be able to ask for an extension is a unilateral right but not an obligation. If you decide not to use the right, and write that prohibition into law, it doesn't undermine the PD, it just means you're confirming in as hard a manner as possible that you won't be using said right.

Mr.Nice Guy

hotmail.com wrote: »

What's the connection between Brexit voters who are British and Americans who vote for Trump. Do Irish people just throw out Trump stuff now during every debate on politics.

Why not try reading the comments? A taste:

Not sure how good it will be
to alert the FBI & CIA;
some of them
may actually be behind this BS!

But if anything happens
to our beloved
@POTUS
;
you'd best believe
ALL HELL WILL BREAKOUT!

Trump2020Landslide!
MAGA

Terrible! May God protect my President!

Are you threatening Our President? I certainly hope not.

Trump's legacy will long outlive the failure that is the globalist EU dictatorship

Low life would happily shoot him in the back ...... he is currently doing the same to the UK !

This #pos needs to be removed from EPP he stole money from Poland and now is that a threat on
@POTUS
? The day the #EU and their cohorts come crashing down will be glorious #Brexit

And so on.

BonnieSituation

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Agreed.

It's a disgraceful image; clearly a provocation as if to say, "Wish I could shoot this guy".

As a long-standing, seasoned - often respected politician, Tusk should know better.

If Nigel Farage did this to a very senior liberal political leader, we know what the reaction would be.

You didn't seem to care between December 5th and today though...

It's hardly worth the effort.

BonnieSituation

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You didn't seem to care between December 5th and today though...

It's hardly worth the effort.

Now that I've seen it, I do care.

In what is a relatively febrile political atmosphere, senior politicians should not be doing this kind of thing.

listermint

hotmail.com wrote: »

What's the connection between Brexit voters who are British and Americans who vote for Trump. Do Irish people just throw out Trump stuff now during every debate on politics.

The connection is that the majority are bot accounts designed to re-enforce views of the minority of folks who believe this crap.

No offence to sufferers of the likes of autism but there is plenty of it going around on Facebook and Twitter very single minded individuals who believe everything they are told and then Parrott it forward as fact.

I've a friend like this he has a reasonable level of autism lovely bloke but be can really go down trump rabbit holes

MrMusician18

Deleted User wrote: »

Now that I've seen it, I do care.

In what is a relatively febrile political atmosphere, senior politicians should not be doing this kind of thing.

I wouldn't agree with Eskimo on a lot of things but Tusk has hit the wrong note. While he has a reputation for being mischievous, images like this are not diplomatic. He wouldn't do it to Putin so he definitely shouldn't do it to an ally.

McGiver

Anyone speculating that Johnson going for BRINO is deluded. It's not going to happen, ever.

Yes, he's a populist, charlatan, and cares about himself, has no principles etc. But you have to look who pays him. He's only a clown and a useful idiot, his power ambitions are being leveraged by powerful people. He's literally a puppet PM.

Who's behind him? The oligarchs of all shades - Russian, American, British. Supported by neoliberal think tanks etc. The agenda is clear - deregulate, privatise, sell everything out and deconstruct the welfare state.

This is no conspiracy theory. One ex one nation tory (long gone from the party) who was doing election campaign for Cameron (don't remember his name) said few months back on Cakewatch podcast that he had heard from reliable sources in the New Tory party - "These are people who want American money in the UK economy on 31st October". This is exactly what he said. This is a serious podcast so I would believe that information.

It got delayed a bit due to obstructions in the HoC but this is what is likely going to gravitate towards.

Nothing to do with Brexit, but if any trigger happy CIA man had seen that move (assuming it's real) with the fingers, the shoot to kill instinct would have kicked in and he would have been shot.

GM228

MrMusician18 wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with Eskimo on a lot of things but Tusk has hit the wrong note. While he has a reputation for being mischievous, images like this are not diplomatic. He wouldn't do it to Putin so he definitely shouldn't do it to an ally.

He did put his fists up to Putin though before.

First Up

McGiver wrote:

Who's behind him? The oligarchs of all shades - Russian, American, British. Supported by neoliberal think tanks etc. The agenda is clear - deregulate, privatise, sell everything out and deconstruct the welfare state.

I think you give him too much credit. He's making this up as he goes along.

Anyway, it won't be just his call.

Skyknight

Be civil, please.

10000maniacs

An analysis of what went wrong with Labour being discussed now on Newsnight. The elephant in the room has not been mentioned once yet, 25 minutes in. Labour's policy on immigration from the EU. That's what killed them. They need to convince voters that immigration is good or else go with the Tory line.

Imreoir2

Deleted User wrote: »

Nothing to do with Brexit, but if any trigger happy CIA man had seen that move (assuming it's real) with the fingers, the shoot to kill instinct would have kicked in and he would have been shot.

I seriously doubt anyone that is trigger happy is allowed near to working at that level.

Imreoir2

GM228 wrote: »

He did put his fists up to Putin though before.

For all the machoism the right wing likes to project, it really takes very little to make them squeal.

"The bad man pointed his fingers at our leader, boo hoo".

Talk about manufactued offence.

rossie1977

10000maniacs wrote: »

An analysis of what went wrong with Labour being discussed now on Newsnight. The elephant in the room has not been mentioned once yet, 25 minutes in. Labour's policy on immigration from the EU. That's what killed them. They need to convince voters that immigration is good or else go with the Tory line.

Net migration into UK from EU is less than 50,000 a year currently so drop in ocean.

Vast majority of immigrants into UK comes from ex colonies not the EU.

ancapailldorcha

Some posts deleted. No more insults please.

MrMusician18

Imreoir2 wrote: »

For all the machoism the right wing likes to project, it really takes very little to make them squeal.

"The bad man pointed his fingers at our leader, boo hoo".

Talk about manufactued offence.

Do you think it would've been appropriate if Trump had performed the same gesture behind Tusk?

10000maniacs

rossie1977 wrote: »

Net migration into UK from EU is less than 50,000 a year currently so drop in ocean.

Vast majority of immigrants into UK comes from ex colonies not the EU.

That does not matter to or register with these voters in smaller traditional Labour towns like Durham,Peterborough, Darlington and Workington where most immigrants from the EU and further afield tend to be council housed because of the lower property prices. A lot of these voters blame EU free movement for this influx rightly or wrongly. And it doesn't help that a lot of the younger people in these towns have moved to the cities to get work leaving the older people behind.
Lisa Tandy or the other potential Labour candidates could never bring this point up as it would be political suicide to do so. Where as the Tories didn't seem to have any problem doing so. See Boris's Brexit manifesto. "Take back control of our borders".
Those new Tory MPs in these towns are going to find it just as hard though.