Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)

Bit cynical

Leroy42 wrote: »

There shouldn't be any remainers left, it is over. The argument now is about the future relationship and how best to protect the UK from the worst cravings of the Brexiteers.

I know this is with the benefit of hindsight, but should this have not been the strategy all along?

Strazdas

Bit cynical wrote: »

I know this is with the benefit of hindsight, but should this have not been the strategy all along?

In a normal, functioning democracy, the Brexit process would have been quickly abandoned when it was realised by everyone the damage it was inflicting on society.

What has happened in Britain is that they have ploughed on ahead with it, in the full knowledge that it could destroy the country in the process.

Imreoir2

Deleted User wrote: »

It isn't now, a second language is compulsory, but it can be any language, usually French or German. Some schools have Spanish or Russian as an option as well.

Not in England. A second language being compulsory was dropped over a decade ago. Some schools, especially posher schools require students to study a second language, but many schools do not force students to take a second language.

Bit cynical

Strazdas wrote: »

In a normal, functioning democracy, the Brexit process would have been quickly abandoned when it was realised by everyone the damage it was inflicting on society.

What has happened in Britain is that they have ploughed on ahead with it, in the full knowledge that it could destroy the country in the process.

Society is to blame?

strandroad

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Not in England. A second language being compulsory was dropped over a decade ago. Some schools, especially posher schools require students to study a second language, but many schools do not force students to take a second language.

It won't be getting any better after Brexit, according to the reports:

While more than two-thirds of teachers surveyed by the British Council said the difficulty of the exams was causing concern, one in four said Brexit had “cast a pall” over pupils learning any foreign languages, with some parents actively discouraging their children.

Teachers told researchers that they have seen a shift in attitudes since the Brexit referendum, with one reporting: “We have had parents mention that they do not believe their son or daughter should be studying a language as it is little to no use to them now that we are leaving the European Union.”

Another teacher noted comments from pupils, “obviously heard at home, such as now we’ve left/are leaving the EU you won’t need this any more”.

The annual report by the British Council on trends in language teaching in England also found a decline in schools taking part in cross-border activities including student exchanges or overseas trips, with schools blaming funding pressures, Brexit uncertainty and safeguarding concerns.

https://amp.theguardian.com/education/2019/jul/03/brexit-putting-pupils-off-modern-foreign-languages

Strazdas

Bit cynical wrote: »

Society is to blame?

Everything really. A shocking number of people seem to have bought into the idea that "it will be the end of democracy in the UK if the referendum result is not implemented" idea. Nonsensical slogans, populism and 'identity' winning out even against the notion of trying to protect the economy and people's livelihoods from being wiped out.

I'm not sure we've seen anything like this in any developed country in the last 50-60 years.

Nody

strandroad wrote: »

It won't be getting any better after Brexit, according to the reports:

Well they are simply cementing their mistakes exactly as the poor republican base has done; and they will never admit to wearing the choker and continue to serve their masters until death instead of looking at their believes.

Irish Praetorian

Slightly tangential to the topic at hand but, is anyone else observing a sense of...I guess you could call it despairing resolve...since these Brexit and Trump developments? Its difficult to articulate precisely, but I get a sense that the shattering of old beliefs that these two events have entailed, has unleashed an almost cannibalistic impulse on the part of more and more people in society. The same people who might previously have say, campaigned against climate change or gone into social work for the hope of changing the world for the better or even just taken a more altruistic view on politics and the economy; these same people are now left with an enduring desire to simply smash and grab. A new view (or should I say an old view just maybe more popular) seems to have arisen where one forgoes the common good and just tries to get what one can and damn the future and the justification might be if people will vote against their own interests why should anyone else not try to profit from that? I would be interested to know if anyone else has observed something along those lines; I mean in one sense it's not a new way of living, I'm just wondering if it's become more prominent in peoples observation?

Fogmatic

In these recent weeks the mainland UK media seems to have gone quiet about Ireland (let alone how the demands of the borders involved will supposedly be reconciled). Is that just because I don't see much of that media, or is the elephant in the room now universal over there?

If the latter, I'm not surprised if most of them don't care about Ireland, as somebody said here. Who has the time (plus the cynicism) to discover current affairs that the popular media may be glossing over?

Before anyone gets hot under the collar, I'm not taking sides here. (Manipulated news does leavers a disservice too!).

An Ciarraioch

strandroad wrote: »

It won't be getting any better after Brexit, according to the reports:



https://amp.theguardian.com/education/2019/jul/03/brexit-putting-pupils-off-modern-foreign-languages

One stat I found shocking on a related link - only 12,000 did French and German combined for A-levels, compared to 41,000 studying a language in Ireland, which would scale up to 500,000 on the UK population:

https://careersportal.ie/careerplanning/story.php?ID=2501203606

Strazdas

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

One stat I found shocking on a related link - only 12,000 did French and German combined for A-levels, compared to 41,000 studying a language in Ireland, which would scale up to 500,000 on the UK population:

https://careersportal.ie/careerplanning/story.php?ID=2501203606

Makes a mockery of the "Global Britain" malarkey. They seem to be genuinely retreating into isolationism.

igCorcaigh

Recent talk by Ivan Rogers is on the latest Brexit Republic podcast. We'll worth a listen.

igCorcaigh

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Slightly tangential to the topic at hand but, is anyone else observing a sense of...I guess you could call it despairing resolve...since these Brexit and Trump developments? Its difficult to articulate precisely, but I get a sense that the shattering of old beliefs that these two events have entailed, has unleashed an almost cannibalistic impulse on the part of more and more people in society. The same people who might previously have say, campaigned against climate change or gone into social work for the hope of changing the world for the better or even just taken a more altruistic view on politics and the economy; these same people are now left with an enduring desire to simply smash and grab. A new view (or should I say an old view just maybe more popular) seems to have arisen where one forgoes the common good and just tries to get what one can and damn the future and the justification might be if people will vote against their own interests why should anyone else not try to profit from that? I would be interested to know if anyone else has observed something along those lines; I mean in one sense it's not a new way of living, I'm just wondering if it's become more prominent in peoples observation?

I don't think so, Brexit is just distorting everything. The generational difference in social attitudes is striking.

Bit cynical

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

A new view (or should I say an old view just maybe more popular) seems to have arisen where one forgoes the common good and just tries to get what one can and damn the future and the justification might be if people will vote against their own interests why should anyone else not try to profit from that?

That could be turned around though. Just because some people see profit in something does automatically not make it the wrong thing to do. So for example, a Northern English working class pensioner might know that some people will profit from Brexit but nevertheless continue to support Brexit for personal ideological reasons.

beggars_bush

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Not in England. A second language being compulsory was dropped over a decade ago. Some schools, especially posher schools require students to study a second language, but many schools do not force students to take a second language.

But the posh schools will do Latin or Greek
Just to allow the graduates sound pompous in a few years

L1011

beggars_bush wrote: »

But the posh schools will do Latin or Greek
Just to allow the graduates sound pompous in a few years

Specifically Ancient Greek, lest it be vaguely useful

Charles Babbage

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

One stat I found shocking on a related link - only 12,000 did French and German combined for A-levels, compared to 41,000 studying a language in Ireland, which would scale up to 500,000 on the UK population:

https://careersportal.ie/careerplanning/story.php?ID=2501203606

What is the source of the UK stat? Very dodgy I would have thought, it wouldn't surprise me if that many did these subjects in NI alone.

Junkyard Tom

Strazdas wrote: »

One side gloating, triumphal and high fiving each other and the other subdued into complete silence is a disaster in the making.

And the side who 'lost' watching the side who 'won' embolden the Tories to make all their lives more precarious. Meanwhile the side who 'won' will be told that all Britain's problems are the fault of a vindictive EU.

Can't see any positive outcome for Britain unless they forge a new socio-economic paradigm which is simply not in the nature of the Tories or thier backers.

Nody

Charles Babbage wrote: »

What is the source of the UK stat? Very dodgy I would have thought, it wouldn't surprise me if that many did these subjects in NI alone.

Numbers appear legit actually; it's been dropping like a stone and in terms of per student percentage is pathetic.

Water John

Under Other +295%, they must be studying Mandarin.

CelticRambler

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

One stat I found shocking on a related link - only 12,000 did French and German combined for A-levels, compared to 41,000 studying a language in Ireland

A little bit of Brexiter-like cherrypicking going on there, An Ciarraioch - comparing the two worst take-up languages in the UK with all languages combined in Ireland. :P

As Nody's graph & link above show, the British have enthusiastically switched from "old Europe" languages to Brazilian, Polish, Arabic and Chinese. Global Britain, innit? :cool:

Oafley Jones

CelticRambler wrote: »

A little bit of Brexiter-like cherrypicking going on there, An Ciarraioch - comparing the two worst take-up languages in the UK with all languages combined in Ireland. :P

As Nody's graph & link above show, the British have enthusiastically switched from "old Europe" languages to Brazilian, Polish, Arabic and Chinese. Global Britain, innit? :cool:

"Brazilian" is that the language of wax? It would be interesting to compare those numbers to ethnicity stats.

Nody

Water John wrote: »

Under Other +295%, they must be studying Mandarin.

Mandarin, Spanish and Portuguese being the fastest growing once, yes. Need to know how to order another beer when drunk after all.

CelticRambler

Oafley Jones wrote: »

"Brazilian" is that the language of wax? It would be interesting to compare those numbers to ethnicity stats.

I may have over-enthusiastically applied my cynicism filter when interpreting the figures. I suppose it's quite possible that Sunderland Man (and family) has developed a sudden urge to learn Portuguese so as to better appreciate their two weeks' annual holiday on the beaches of Albufeira ... :rolleyes:

But yes, it would be very interesting to see how many native Brits are learning those non-traditional languages. Very few, I suspect - which creates yet another Global Britain paradox: to what extent can Brexiters claim credit for opportunities in China, South America and the Middle East if they rely on the immigrant population to talk to these people?

Nody

CelticRambler wrote: »

A little bit of Brexiter-like cherrypicking going on there, An Ciarraioch - comparing the two worst take-up languages in the UK with all languages combined in Ireland. :P

Well look at the numbers, UK 30k tests over all languages on a population of 66 million. Ireland 41k tests on a population of just shy of 5 million. UK should be around 560k language tests at equal levels of people taking the test.

CelticRambler

Nody wrote: »

Well look at the numbers, UK 30k tests over all languages on a population of 66 million. Ireland 41k tests on a population of just shy of 5 million. UK should be around 560k language tests at equal levels of people taking the test.

Yeah but ... remember the effective equivalent of the Leaving Cert in the UK is the GCSE, for which there are the hundreds of thousands (even if less than the pro rata 500k) Even today, when most secondary school students in Ireland are expecting to stay in full-time education until they have at least one undergraduate degree, it's still considered perfectly normal in England to leave school once you've done your GCSEs. And most of those who do A-levels are happy to take just three.

We're back again to how our two countries place different values on education.

Nody

CelticRambler wrote: »

Yeah but ... remember the effective equivalent of the Leaving Cert in the UK is the GCSE, for which there are the hundreds of thousands (even if less than the pro rata 500k) Even today, when most secondary school students in Ireland are expecting to stay in full-time education until they have at least one undergraduate degree, it's still considered perfectly normal in England to leave school once you've done your GCSEs. And most of those who do A-levels are happy to take just three.

We're back again to how our two countries place different values on education.

And that's the problem; they are still thinking it's the 70s but the world has moved on and they have not. It's basically the whole Brexit debate all over again; how dare the world do something I disagree with and not be the way it was when I grew up. By not getting a second language, by not continuing in education they are setting themselves up live in the lower social classes economically who'l spend their time gripping about "dem foreigners taking ur jooobs" at the pub while voting in Tories "to give 'em a finger in London".

CelticRambler

Nody wrote: »

And that's the problem; they are still thinking it's the 70s but the world has moved on and they have not. It's basically the whole Brexit debate all over again ...

More than that, the practical implementation of Brexit is going to worsen the situation for the "natives" when EU-trained immigrant teachers are progressively replaced by non-EU immigrants, and the schools that employ them (to teach A-level subjects) will be teaching classes of highly motivated Asians and Arabs, with a smattering of Eastern Europeans and South Americans.

The economic impact of Brexit will inevitably reduce funding for schools, creating competition for places in the best establishments, and those places will not be won by Kylie or Daryl with their seven GCSEs. Whether it takes a decade or a generation, the effect of Brexit will be to noticeably darken the skin colour of Britain's educated classes.

Sam Russell

Nody wrote: »

Numbers appear legit actually; it's been dropping like a stone and in terms of per student percentage is pathetic.

There is a significant difference between the two educataion systems.

In Ireland the normal no of subjects taken is a minimum of six subjects that include maths, English and Irish.

In the UK, it is normal to take as few as three subjects, and only those expecting to major in languages that study foreign language subjects.

It is likely that 'other' includes Polish and other 'immigrant' languages.

In Ireland we have too many students going onto university rather than apprenticeships. We need more high grade skilled manual workers.

Strazdas

Reading a few comments from EU based Brits in the Guardian comments today and they say the UK has done itself enormous reputational damage in the last three and a half years. Most continentals now regard the British as a bunch of hooligans and vandals, not just the UK politicians and the media, but the general population.