Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)

I'm surprised that no one has commented on this RTE news report.

Dominic Cummings calls for 'weirdos' to apply for Downing Street jobs

https://www.rte.ie/news/uk/2020/0103/1104100-uk-politics/

British Prime Minister Boris Johnson's key adviser Dominic Cummings has called for "weirdos" to apply for jobs in Downing Street as he seeks to overhaul decision-making in the UK government.

Mr Cummings posted an apparent job advert yesterday saying Number 10 wants to hire an "unusual set of people with different skills and backgrounds" to work as special advisers and potentially officials.

The blog post exceeding 2,900 words came amid reports that Boris Johnson is planning "seismic changes" to the civil service.

Mr Cummings, a former Vote Leave director, said he hopes to be made "largely redundant" within a year by the recruitment drive.

He called for officials including "weirdos and misfits with odd skills", data scientists and policy experts to apply to a Gmail account if they think they fit the bill.

Professor Moriarty

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm surprised that no one has commented on this RTE news report.

Weirdo wants to work with weirdos? Quelle surprise.

Professor Moriarty

RobMc59 wrote: »

I'd have preferred to remain in the EU but as that ship has sailed I wish the EU well for the future.
Your attitude is typical of the 'I'm not bothered about Brexit'prevailant amongst many on this thread.The level of bitterness in their posts would suggest that's not really true.

I think it's important to understand and remember that Irish people really don't care about the UK itself or what happens to the UK. What they care about is the effect of this Brexit madness on Ireland's economy and stability. A madness that is not of Ireland's making. If the UK fell off the planet and it didn't affect Ireland, most Irish people wouldn't lose a minute's sleep. It's not bitterness, it's justifiable anger.

CelticRambler

RobMc59 wrote: »

I doubt France are in the least bit concerned with 'staring down 'the UK with the transport and anti corruption strikes taking place there.

Anti-corruption strikes?

The transport strike is already a busted flush. The only thing it has achieved is to push everyone into accepting that private operators are more reliable (and offer as good if not better) service than the state-run enterprise. The strikes are losing SNCF massive amounts of money every day, almost guaranteeing that they will be crucified by any of the foreign operators who decide to expand their services. Air France learnt this lesson the hard way a few years ago when they permanently lost market share by forcing their true-blue loyal customers onto Ryanair, Easyjet and Lufthansa.

Macron knows this: it's the platform on which he campaigned - telling people that France was not the greatest country in the world anymore, that it was time to wake up and smell the really good non-French croissants being baked by the Germans (and others) and to apply whatever is left of French creative flair to future opportunities instead of trying to cling onto the 1970s.

As FirstUp says, France can deal with internal disruption on the one hand and Brexit nonsense on the other - not least because any stress related to Brexit is shared with 26 other countries. Here, yet again, is the real challenge for a post-Brexit UK: Westminster will have to handle everything on its own, desperately trying to find the resources and competent personnel in a public service (and wider jobs market) that is crippled by unfillable vacancies.

First Up

RobMc59 wrote:

I'd have preferred to remain in the EU but as that ship has sailed I wish the EU well for the future. Your attitude is typical of the 'I'm not bothered about Brexit'prevailant amongst many on this thread.The level of bitterness in their posts would suggest that's not really true.

Nothing to do with "my attitude". As far as the EU is concerned, the UK is gone and the deal on the table is the only one they'll get. Time to move on; the UK's political circus is its own business.

ambro25

RobMc59 wrote: »

(...)
Your attitude is typical of the 'I'm not bothered about Brexit'prevailant amongst many on this thread.The level of bitterness in their posts would suggest that's not really true.

Much of this 'I'm not bothered about Brexit' amongst Irish (posters and not) in Ireland, must largely echo the same sentiment here on the Continent: most anyone at street level in the EU27 ceased to give a monkey about the Brexiting UK, and effectively wrote it off as a lost cause, last year. It ceased to be newsworthy after March '19, and barely ever rates a few words in politician discourses now (it rated a -short- sentence in Macron's New Year wishes, and even then indirectly as the UK wasn't even referred to by its country name, IIRC)

It's really only in debating bubbles like this thread, frequented by (by now) topic specialists, that the notion maintains daily relevance and actuality.

In that context, any bitterness that I've seen in posts on here, appears mostly directed at the senseless, wasteful nature of Brexit, rather than at Brexit itself: I might speak out of turn here, but I think we're all long used to the inevitability of the UK Brexiting.

The commenting is, effectively, indeed that of bystanders witnessing a monster pile-up in ultra-slow-motion: it's only human that comments would be tinged by some degree of sadness (bitterness, regret, <etc> however you want to badge it) every so often. Doesn't make the pile-up any less fascinating (...go on...entertaining) to watch.

ancapailldorcha

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm surprised that no one has commented on this RTE news report.

I'm considering applying. I mean, I can't imagine that I'm in any way qualified but I'm curious nonetheless.

Strazdas

ambro25 wrote: »

Much of this 'I'm not bothered about Brexit' amongst Irish (posters and not) in Ireland, must largely echo the same sentiment here on the Continent: most anyone at street level in the EU27 ceased to give a monkey about the Brexiting UK, and effectively wrote it off as a lost cause, last year. It ceased to be newsworthy after March '19, and barely ever rates a few words in politician discourses now (it rated a -short- sentence in Macron's New Year wishes, and even then indirectly as the UK wasn't even referred to by its country name, IIRC)

It's really only in debating bubbles like this thread, frequented by (by now) topic specialists, that the notion maintains daily relevance and actuality.

In that context, any bitterness that I've seen in posts on here, appears mostly directed at the senseless, wasteful nature of Brexit, rather than at Brexit itself: I might speak out of turn here, but I think we're all long used to the inevitability of the UK Brexiting.

The commenting is, effectively, indeed that of bystanders witnessing a monster pile-up in ultra-slow-motion: it's only human that comments would be tinged by some degree of sadness (bitterness, regret, <etc> however you want to badge it) every so often. Doesn't make the pile-up any less fascinating (...go on...entertaining) to watch.

My own view is that it's horrendous to watch the UK being taken over by a bunch of reactionaries and having to listen to their self righteous paranoia. As you say though, there is also a grim fascination to watching it from afar.

But I also think Brexit is necessary. The same crowd are beyond all logic and reason at this point and would never settle for Brexit being cancelled. Most extreme ideologies crash and burn because they were basically a useless idea to start with and this needs to play itself out in full.

Sam Russell

Strazdas wrote: »

My own view is that it's horrendous to watch the UK being taken over by a bunch of reactionaries and having to listen to their self righteous paranoia. As you say though, there is also a grim fascination to watching it from afar.

But I also think Brexit is necessary. The same crowd are beyond all logic and reason at this point and would never settle for Brexit being cancelled. Most extreme ideologies crash and burn because they were basically a useless idea to start with and this needs to play itself out in full.

It took 60 years for Communism (a la Russia) to burn itself out. A centrally planned economy could only work in a small country, not in a country like USSR. Cuba was about as large as could manage it, but even then, Cuba needed plenty of subsidy from the USSR - perhaps if they were allowed operate without the utter hostility of the USA it might have been different.

Will the UK follow 'splendid isolation' or maybe soften their Brexit ideals when the future hoves into clear sight? Well, it might become clear sometime this year - perhaps it might bring a new meaning to '20-20 vision'.

ancapailldorcha

Strazdas wrote: »

My own view is that it's horrendous to watch the UK being taken over by a bunch of reactionaries and having to listen to their self righteous paranoia. As you say though, there is also a grim fascination to watching it from afar.

But I also think Brexit is necessary. The same crowd are beyond all logic and reason at this point and would never settle for Brexit being cancelled. Most extreme ideologies crash and burn because they were basically a useless idea to start with and this needs to play itself out in full.

Yeah. As bad as it is, I think this needs to play out in some form. I think it's all but assured that Europe will claim the scalp of a fifth consecutive Conservative prime minister as Brexit is either diluted so much as to be meaningless or the economy tanks in the event of a crash out no deal Brexit.

This could be interpreted as a long overdue moment of humbling for the British, a catalyst for introspection and debate about the UK's place in the world. The British never suffered from a self-inflicted national catastrophe the way other European powers did and. France, Germany et al. have all had to reckon and reconcile with their nations' complex histories and colonialism. The British haven't, at least on the same scale beyond abstract debate. Global Great Britain (and it will be just GB once NI is abandoned to the EU) just isn't a viable artifice in the modern world. It's a relic of a bygone era and reality will be ruthless in the teaching of this lesson to the British public unless Johnson shows some sort of capacity for compromise.

RobMc59

Sam Russell wrote: »

It took 60 years for Communism (a la Russia) to burn itself out. A centrally planned economy could only work in a small country, not in a country like USSR. Cuba was about as large as could manage it, but even then, Cuba needed plenty of subsidy from the USSR - perhaps if they were allowed operate without the utter hostility of the USA it might have been different.

Will the UK follow 'splendid isolation' or maybe soften their Brexit ideals when the future hoves into clear sight? Well, it might become clear sometime this year - perhaps it might bring a new meaning to '20-20 vision'.

I`m not happy about brexit but wanting to leave the EU does`nt put the UK on a par with russia or any of the other countries you mention although that appears to be the consensus amongst many here.
I`m still hoping an amicable agreement can be reached and we can all move on.Regardless of the futility of brexit the UK will still be part of Europe,just not in the EU.

Dytalus

RobMc59 wrote: »

I`m not happy about brexit but wanting to leave the EU does`nt put the UK on a par with russia or any of the other countries you mention although that appears to be the consensus amongst many here.
I`m still hoping an amicable agreement can be reached and we can all move on.Regardless of the futility of brexit the UK will still be part of Europe,just not in the EU.

I don't think he was comparing the UK to Russia per se, more indicating that damaging ideologies don't necessarily die out quickly.

Communism lasted 60 years before being largely abandoned. Brexit and the undercurrent of British exceptionalism beneath it may not be immediately discarded (ie, the EU rejoined) even if it does incredible harm to the British people. It could continue to influence British politics for generations.

listermint

RobMc59 wrote: »

I`m not happy about brexit but wanting to leave the EU does`nt put the UK on a par with russia or any of the other countries you mention although that appears to be the consensus amongst many here.
I`m still hoping an amicable agreement can be reached and we can all move on.Regardless of the futility of brexit the UK will still be part of Europe,just not in the EU.

You are confusing the point, dont get stuck on Russia. Get stuck on Isolationism Thats the core problem

Strazdas

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Yeah. As bad as it is, I think this needs to play out in some form. I think it's all but assured that Europe will claim the scalp of a fifth consecutive Conservative prime minister as Brexit is either diluted so much as to be meaningless or the economy tanks in the event of a crash out no deal Brexit.

This could be interpreted as a long overdue moment of humbling for the British, a catalyst for introspection and debate about the UK's place in the world. The British never suffered from a self-inflicted national catastrophe the way other European powers did and. France, Germany et al. have all had to reckon and reconcile with their nations' complex histories and colonialism. The British haven't, at least on the same scale beyond abstract debate. Global Great Britain (and it will be just GB once NI is abandoned to the EU) just isn't a viable artifice in the modern world. It's a relic of a bygone era and reality will be ruthless in the teaching of this lesson to the British public unless Johnson shows some sort of capacity for compromise.

Many analysts have spoken in the last year or so about the rise of "English nationalism" and how Britain seems to be at war with itself. The EU is just a scapegoat for an internal struggle between two halves of the country ; the pro-Brexit half are mostly ageing conservatives / xenophobes and are attempting to muddy the waters by claiming that Britain's relationship with Europe is the source of all internal problems.

ambro25

Strazdas wrote: »

My own view is that it's horrendous to watch the UK being taken over by a bunch of reactionaries and having to listen to their self righteous paranoia. As you say though, there is also a grim fascination to watching it from afar.

But I also think Brexit is necessary. The same crowd are beyond all logic and reason at this point and would never settle for Brexit being cancelled. Most extreme ideologies crash and burn because they were basically a useless idea to start with and this needs to play itself out in full.

I've thought exactly that, at times strongly, at other times less so, since mid-2017.

But after the GE2019, I've been wavering tbh. I'm getting less convinced than ever, that enough of the 52% is capable of learning a salutary lesson through Brexit-caused hardships, rather than harbour still more populists-stoked outrage at the EU, foreigners, Brussels, etc.

Might be the January blues. And/or the not-so-enjoyable Xmas break in the grim-ooop-Northern UK last week.

Or it might be the realisation that the longer it takes for these salutary lessons to sink in, and policies to turn that particular supertanker around are enacted and implemented, the more damage to the UK societal tissue in the meantime...compounding how and why Brexit came about (as a vote) all the while.

ancapailldorcha

Strazdas wrote: »

Many analysts have spoken in the last year or so about the rise of "English nationalism" and how Britain seems to be at war with itself. The EU is just a scapegoat for an internal struggle between two halves of the country ; the pro-Brexit half are mostly ageing conservatives / xenophobes and are attempting to muddy the waters by claiming that Britain's relationship with Europe is the source of all internal problems.

Brexit is absolutely a byproduct of English Nationalism. Scottish, Welsh and Irish nationalists seem to be much more, though nowhere near entirely pro-EU.

In fairness, these people have been drip-fed Europhobic poison for decades now. The EU was a tremendously efficacious and convenient scapegoat for those in power to blame their shortcomings on instead of assuming responsibility themselves. Also, of course it was a threat to the press barons and oligarchs with its resistance to lobbying from the former and its potential to curb tax evasion and avoidance for the latter.

Both sides love to talk about the "left behind" in romantic terms to woo them for their votes. The left and liberals have now realised that these people will only tolerate so much. At the same time, I'm struggling to empathise with them. Brexit was laid bare before them for what it was, a venal exercise in rent extraction by oligarchs masquerading as a working class revolution and they voted for it in droves.

I don't want to sound cruel, heartless or callous but ultimately these people put insipid nationalism above all else, including their own well-being. The issue with "left behind" narrative is that it ignores the autonomy of the working classes. Liberals and Europhiles talk about pitying the working classes for getting screwed over but this time they've ensured that this will be the result if we see a harsh, WTO Brexit.

I think the best that Labour can do here, and it will be Labour under the current system if anyone is to address the inevitable shambles this government leaves in its wake is to elect a media-savvy, charismatic leader who is at least somewhat patriotic and ideally sporting a northern accent. The left in this country also needs to address its problems with insisting on ideological purity and echo chambers. Momentum members would do well to visit the likes of Stoke-on-Trent and Blyth Valley and do it sooner rather than later. Ultimately though, Johnson has shown that personality matters a great deal. Perhaps more than policies and ideas.

J Mysterio

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm considering applying. I mean, I can't imagine that I'm in any way qualified but I'm curious nonetheless.

Ok... At any rate, would be great to have a 'source in no.10'. The belly of the beast.

J Mysterio

Strazdas wrote: »

My own view is that it's horrendous to watch the UK being taken over by a bunch of reactionaries and having to listen to their self righteous paranoia. As you say though, there is also a grim fascination to watching it from afar.

But I also think Brexit is necessary. The same crowd are beyond all logic and reason at this point and would never settle for Brexit being cancelled. Most extreme ideologies crash and burn because they were basically a useless idea to start with and this needs to play itself out in full.

As Cummings so smartly points out in his latest blog 'most bad ideas are bad ideas'.

ancapailldorcha

J Mysterio wrote: »

Ok... At any rate, would be great to have a 'source in no.10'. The belly of the beast.

Given the hours he's clearly demanding, I'd say there's a fair chance that I'd accidentally leave myself logged onto this place.

J Mysterio

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Given the hours he's clearly demanding, I'd say there's a fair chance that I'd accidentally leave myself logged onto this place.

At least you have some odd skills to ingratiate yourself with him!

serfboard

Mr Cummings ... called for officials including ... data scientists and policy experts

Hmmmm ... interesting.

Data scientists to trawl through peoples personal lives on social media? Or to mine social media so that an army of xenophobes can be collected to unleash whenever an unpopular policy is being implemented?

Remember the quote from Brexit, the Uncivil War? "350 million quid a week, and Turkey" - both of which were lies.

And policy experts? Where is he going to find these policy experts? In No. 55 Tufton Street, by any chance?

Strazdas

ambro25 wrote: »

I've thought exactly that, at times strongly, at other times less so, since mid-2017.

But after the GE2019, I've been wavering tbh. I'm getting less convinced than ever, that enough of the 52% is capable of learning a salutary lesson through Brexit-caused hardships, rather than harbour still more populists-stoked outrage at the EU, foreigners, Brussels, etc.

Might be the January blues. And/or the not-so-enjoyable Xmas break in the grim-ooop-Northern UK last week.

Or it might be the realisation that the longer it takes for these salutary lessons to sink in, and policies to turn that particular supertanker around are enacted and implemented, the more damage to the UK societal tissue in the meantime...compounding how and why Brexit came about (as a vote) all the while.

The problem for the Brexiteers and the right wing press is that they are now openly admitting they are running the country. The remainers and Labour have been crushed and humiliated. If it all starts to go pear shaped, it's going to very hard to claim that the opposition parties or the Guardian are to blame.

It will be extremely difficult to deflect criticism away from a single party government with a big majority - even though the right wing press will undoubtedly try it.

RobMc59

ambro25 wrote: »

You may have missed Macron's New Year address. The message was crystal clear, and the strikers can expect the same treatment -and end game- as the gilets jaunes sometime in 2020 (...and just in case you were minded to up the ante with some Frexit-based retort, kindly allow me to disabuse you early). Moreover, I have it mind that, unlike Hollande, he will not sanction paying the strikers for their striking days. Boo-f*****-hoo, tbh.

These strikes aren't impeding the latent exodus of UK financial business to Paris in the least, one of the (many) reasons why France is indeed keeping the pressure on the UK to *actually* Brexit (you may remember Macron's serial 'bad cop' role in respect of the UK's earlier Art.50 extension requests: follow the brexoding money for an explanation).

I`m not particularly eurosceptic and was merely pointing out other countries in Europe have their problems too.It is remarkable that despite the downside of brexit the UK is still above many of the EU high rollers in the `financial world clout league`.
https://cebr.com/reports/world-economic-league-table-2020/

ancapailldorcha

RobMc59 wrote: »

I`m not particularly eurosceptic and was merely pointing out other countries in Europe have their problems too.It is remarkable that despite the downside of brexit the UK is still above many of the EU high rollers in the `financial world clout league`.
https://cebr.com/reports/world-economic-league-table-2020/

Brexit has neither happened nor been defined yet.

RobMc59

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Brexit has neither happened nor been defined yet.

My mistake,I should have said since the brexit vote in 2016.

ancapailldorcha

RobMc59 wrote: »

My mistake,I should have said since the brexit vote in 2016.

That's an inadequate basis for an argument about the effects of Brexit since it hasn't happened yet.

RobMc59

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

That's an inadequate basis for an argument about the effects of Brexit since it hasn't happened yet.

The fallout of a potential brexit has affected the UK financially as many correctly point out here.My point that the UK is still fairly high in the financial league despite this.
If we`re pointing out mistakes, your comment that Europe has claimed 5 UK prime ministers scalps is incorrect.Cameron fell on his own sword because he let the UK down by calling the ridiculous referendum in the first place.

listermint

RobMc59 wrote: »

The fallout of a potential brexit has affected the UK financially as many correctly point out here.My point that the UK is still fairly high in the financial league despite this.
If we`re pointing out mistakes, your comment that Europe has claimed 5 UK prime ministers scalps is incorrect.Cameron fell on his own sword because he let the UK down by calling the ridiculous referendum in the first place.

Let's talk same time 2021.

When they are no longer in the privileged position of full market access. There is nothing to base the claim they are ok because the access hasn't changed

RobMc59

listermint wrote: »

Let's talk same time 2021.

When they are no longer in the privileged position of full market access. There is nothing to base the claim they are ok because the access hasn't changed

That scenario is probably correct in the event of a no deal brexit and despite my occasional outbursts trying to defend my country I fully agree how much of a self inflicted clusterf*ck brexit is and the uncertainty it`s caused other countries and citizens.

Lemming

J Mysterio wrote: »

As Cummings so smartly points out in his latest blog 'most bad ideas are bad ideas'.

Interesting article in the new statesman about his recent "job advert". Summary being that it would seem that Cummings is speaking out of both sides of his mouth and either setting himself up for failure due to delusion & cognitive dissonance (ironic given his diatribes to date), or doesn't entirely believe his own crap. Either scenario is not flattering, and would place him squarely in ambro's earlier possible character assessment of "dangerous crank". He advertises solely on his own blog, reducing the pool of possible applicants that might see it or be active enough politically on twitter to see it. He then reduces it further by wanting those who align with his ideology and will sack anyone within weeks who does not fit, yet talks about wanting to increase diversity of thinking & opinion. So which is it that he actually wants? A bunch of sycopants or people who are good at what they do and will call out their political masters when reality meets ideology. The current issues with the British civil service (and I've heard as much from Irish civil servants dealing with their British counter parts over two years ago) stem from their political masters not knowing what they want or how it is to look, and thus the civil servants attempt to do the impossible whilst walking backwards blindfolded.