Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)

Seth Brundle

EU citizens face paying £4,345 ‘teachers’ tax’ to work in UK for five years

EU teachers are likely to face fees of £4,345 to work in the UK for five years after Brexit in a move that will worsen an existing recruitment crisis, ministers have been warned.

They will also need to overcome red tape before their teaching qualifications are recognised – adding further delays to a process that can already take up to four months in England, the Liberal Democrats are warning.

brickster69

Seth Brundle wrote: »

EU citizens face paying £4,345 ‘teachers’ tax’ to work in UK for five years

The UK is leaving the EU, why should teachers from other countries pay and EU citizens don't.

Seth Brundle

brickster69 wrote: »

The UK is leaving the EU, why should teachers from other countries pay and EU citizens don't.

They are free to do as they wish but penalising teachers from the EU when you are dependant on them coming into your country is not going to prove to be a smart move.

brickster69

Seth Brundle wrote: »

They are free to do as they wish but penalising teachers from the EU when you are dependant on them coming into your country is not going to prove to be a smart move.

Teachers from outside of the Eu have been paying that for years. Why should the UK discriminate against them ?

Leroy42

brickster69 wrote: »

The UK is leaving the EU, why should teachers from other countries pay and EU citizens don't.

Absolutely right, they should treat the EU as they would do with any other country. And the EU should do exactly the same. Treat them as a 3rd country.

But its all academic anyway. There is no way this is actually going to happen. If they do charge it they will find some way to refund it. This is political posturing. Both for the domestic audience in terms of sticking it those foreigners, but also in terms of trying to put pressure on the EU who do not want to be seen to negatively effecting their own citizens.

SantaCruz

Seth Brundle wrote: »

EU citizens face paying £4,345 ‘teachers’ tax’ to work in UK for five years

Here's the funny thing: the UK (or whatever is left) is going to end up having to follow EU regulations, plus their own regulations, plus have a stack of new rules plus another huge stack of exemptions for everywhere that leaving the EU is going to hurt them (which, frankly, is most sectors).

They are going to be drowning in new regulations.

SantaCruz

Leroy42 wrote: »

Absolutely right, they should treat the EU as they would do with any other country. And the EU should do exactly the same. Treat them as a 3rd country.

But that would be the EU 'punishing' England. That's how it works.

ambro25

Seth Brundle wrote: »

EU citizens face paying £4,345 ‘teachers’ tax’ to work in UK for five years

Populist government pushing obscurantist policies shocker.

Well, this will end up doing wonders for Brits' proficiency in foreign languages (an issue raised recently with links to international league tables, showing the UK in rocket-propelled free fall).

beggars_bush

Seth Brundle wrote: »

EU citizens face paying £4,345 ‘teachers’ tax’ to work in UK for five years

Does that include ROI residents crossing the border every day to teach in NI?

10000maniacs

I don't get how Johnson and Raab keep saying 9 months will be ample time to come up with a deal because the UK are aligned to the EU from day one. This top down strategy does not make getting a trade deal any easier. Johnson wants to be much more diverged from the EU on goods and services. That is the big difference between Mays deal and Johnsons deal. Leaving the single market and customs union is what he signed up to.
The EU are not going to give over free movement of goods without the UK giving up some of its former significant obligations in return.
So Johnson is going to have to start from the bottom up in his negotiations. The rules of origin from every apple to every zipper is going to have to be negotiated. Also no freedom of movement means no deal on services. This will take longer than the Canada/EU trade deal. Divergence is much more difficult than convergence. Easier to crack an egg than to put it back together again.

Zubeneschamali

10000maniacs wrote: »

I don't get how Johnson and Raab keep saying 9 months will be ample time to come up with a deal because the UK are aligned to the EU from day one. This top down strategy does not make getting a trade deal any easier.

Johnson may simply take the approach he took on the WA - give the EU a hard date and just accept whatever is on offer by that date. Let the EU do all the work.

Like the WA, this would be a bad deal for the UK, but Johnson apparently doesn't care as long as he Gets Brexit Done.

serfboard

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Johnson may simply take the approach he took on the WA - give the EU a hard date and just accept whatever is on offer by that date. Let the EU do all the work.

Like the WA, this would be a bad deal for the UK, but Johnson apparently doesn't care as long as he Gets Brexit Done.

And the newspaper-owning and other billionaires won't care so long as they get to keep more of their money.

I expect the British media to do their utmost to keep anything EU-related out of the papers in 2020 - and the newspapers still set the agenda in many ways. By February 1st, Brexit will be done - in the minds of a lot of British people - with the rest being just details. No more will be said about it until an agreement is signed - which will be spun as "A Great Deal for Great Britain".

Enzokk

10000maniacs wrote: »

I don't get how Johnson and Raab keep saying 9 months will be ample time to come up with a deal because the UK are aligned to the EU from day one. This top down strategy does not make getting a trade deal any easier. Johnson wants to be much more diverged from the EU on goods and services. That is the big difference between Mays deal and Johnsons deal. Leaving the single market and customs union is what he signed up to.
The EU are not going to give over free movement of goods without the UK giving up some of its former significant obligations in return.
So Johnson is going to have to start from the bottom up in his negotiations. The rules of origin from every apple to every zipper is going to have to be negotiated. Also no freedom of movement means no deal on services. This will take longer than the Canada/EU trade deal. Divergence is much more difficult than convergence. Easier to crack an egg than to put it back together again.

The UK is a broken democracy right now where logic has left the building. When you can openly lie without any consequences it doesn't matter really what reality is, it will only matter what reality the liars sell to the people.

Here is a thread on the upcoming negotiations and what they entail. As you posted, it seems fanciful.

https://twitter.com/DavidHenigUK/status/1214126123480735744?s=20

All tweets in one link here

Here seems to be a tweet at what Johnson seems to be looking at.

https://twitter.com/DmitryOpines/status/1213911303741304833?s=20

So basically the same deal the EU gives to the least developed countries as a template. For a country that has had 40 years of integration in the biggest project of it's kind to the same deal that Sudan would get.

Strazdas

Enzokk wrote: »

The UK is a broken democracy right now where logic has left the building. When you can openly lie without any consequences it doesn't matter really what reality is, it will only matter what reality the liars sell to the people.

Here is a thread on the upcoming negotiations and what they entail. As you posted, it seems fanciful.

https://twitter.com/DavidHenigUK/status/1214126123480735744?s=20

All tweets in one link here

Here seems to be a tweet at what Johnson seems to be looking at.

https://twitter.com/DmitryOpines/status/1213911303741304833?s=20

So basically the same deal the EU gives to the least developed countries as a template. For a country that has had 40 years of integration in the biggest project of it's kind to the same deal that Sudan would get.

Dr. Richard North said recently he thinks such a deal would be very damaging for the UK and almost as bad as No Deal.

Bit cynical

serfboard wrote: »

I expect the British media to do their utmost to keep anything EU-related out of the papers in 2020 - and the newspapers still set the agenda in many ways. By February 1st, Brexit will be done - in the minds of a lot of British people - with the rest being just details. No more will be said about it until an agreement is signed - which will be spun as "A Great Deal for Great Britain".

I think also the public there is sick of news about Brexit and papers will push other stories in their quest to make money.

An Ciarraioch

Australia rejects visa-free travel with the UK:

https://twitter.com/SkyNewsAust/status/1214053982852636673

Leroy42

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Australia rejects visa-free travel with the UK:

https://twitter.com/SkyNewsAust/status/1214053982852636673

Sorry, what happened to cancelling FoM? How does visa free travel fit with that? So instead of EU citizens being free to come over there to take their jobs and also that all the unemployment benefits, they have Australians?

Zubeneschamali

Leroy42 wrote: »

So instead of EU citizens being free to come over there to take their jobs and also that all the unemployment benefits, they have Australians?

Yes, because, you see, Australians are just Brits they exported a long time ago. And they speak English, more or less.

Igotadose

Leroy42 wrote: »

Sorry, what happened to cancelling FoM? How does visa free travel fit with that? So instead of EU citizens being free to come over there to take their jobs and also that all the unemployment benefits, they have Australians?

Is PM Morrison just pandering to fears of an influx of UK types into Oz taking away jobs as the UK economy falters post-Brexit?

Imreoir2

Leroy42 wrote: »

Sorry, what happened to cancelling FoM? How does visa free travel fit with that? So instead of EU citizens being free to come over there to take their jobs and also that all the unemployment benefits, they have Australians?

There are those that see FoM as a problem only depending on who it allows in. They think that the benefits of FoM with a group of countries that include those scary Romanians and will include the Turks and Albanians any day now, can be replaced by having an agreement with the "right" countries, such as a CANZUK agreement.

Unfortunatly for them, it seems A is out, NZ will probably be out too now. Still, CUK could work...

Zubeneschamali

Australia is the supposed model for the UK's proposed new points-based system of immigration for qualified people. If the English think it is so great, why should the Ozzies give them a bye?

Leroy42

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Yes, because, you see, Australians are just Brits they exported a long time ago. And they speak English, more or less.

It really does boil that to that doesn't it? It makes no sense otherwise. How can anyone who defended the ended of FoM not be aghast that this was even an option put to the Australians?

And we already know that India will be looking for increased access to travel and work. You can be sure that they will see this and include FoM in any of their demands. (as should every other country that starts to negotiate with the UK, which of course includes the EU!)

Nody

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Australia is the supposed model for the UK's proposed new points-based system of immigration for qualified people. If the English think it is so great, why should the Ozzies give them a bye?

Because it's for them foreign people don't ya know; we white people should get a walk straight through.

ambro25

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Australia rejects visa-free travel with the UK:

Aye, saw that earlier today, and posted it elsewhere, dubbing the refusal of AU to contenance mass immigration of British unskilled immigrants quite the irony, in the circumstances.

The Leaver reply:

The irony is on you for bringing it up. There is no reason to think that the UK is entitled to any exceptionalism beyond that which can be agreed between two willing negotiating partners such as the UK and Australia, or the UK and the EU27. Whatever is agreed can suit the circumstances of the individual nations with compromise as appropriate to the overall negotiating objectives. It's strange to imagine that all UK citizens should be able to wander in and out of Australia without Australia agreeing to it, but it's not ironic

Obviously the fact that a UK-AU FoM has long been advocated -very publicly- as an essential component of the post-Brexit UK-AU relationship pursued by the UK, must have passed him by.

So I referred him to Lizz Truss speeches back in September 2019 (a non-exhaustive, but representative, example). Can't hardly wait for the exploding head once the India-UK (*with* FoM) gets underway.

Strazdas

Imreoir2 wrote: »

There are those that see FoM as a problem only depending on who it allows in. They think that the benefits of FoM with a group of countries that include those scary Romanians and will include the Turks and Albanians any day now, can be replaced by having an agreement with the "right" countries, such as a CANZUK agreement.

Unfortunatly for them, it seems A is out, NZ will probably be out too now. Still, CUK could work...

Though these people lurched so much to the far right that even white Christians from central and eastern Europe were most unwelcome.

johnnyskeleton

Enzokk wrote: »

So basically the same deal the EU gives to the least developed countries as a template. For a country that has had 40 years of integration in the biggest project of it's kind to the same deal that Sudan would get.

Strazdas wrote: »

Dr. Richard North said recently he thinks such a deal would be very damaging for the UK and almost as bad as No Deal.

Not only would it be damaging to the UK economy, but the EU wouldnt be allowed to offer it to the UK unilaterally as it is a special scheme to help developing nations (WTO special and differential treatment provisions).

Moreover, why would the EU even want to do that? The only option I can see is a free trade deal ala Canada where there isnt absolute and future binding regulatory allignment, but there is mutual recognition of standards for almost all goods. Services excluded, and the price of same is the UK will continue to pay structural funding to the less well off EU states, albeit directly to them and in possibly lesser amounts.

First Up

The UK tried the mutual recognition thing way back. They actually thought it would sail through - hence the super confident predictions about quickest deal ever etc.

It didn't take long for the EU to relieve them of that notion, although it needed Ivan Rogers among others to sit some people down and explain the Single Market in words of as few syllables as possible.

serfboard

Strazdas wrote: »

white Christians from central and eastern Europe were most unwelcome.

I keep saying this too.

They're about to replace white Christians with brown Muslims and Hindus, which presumably they're going to be a lot happier about.

As James O'Brien said: "Not everyone who voted for Brexit is a racist, but I haven't met any racists who didn't".

reslfj

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

..... the price of same is the UK will continue to pay structural funding to the less well off EU states, albeit directly to them and in possibly lesser amounts.

Everything related to trade or is a condition for a trade deal will be directly with the EU and will paid to the EU. Individual members must operate via Brussels.

Lars

Lemming

ambro25 wrote: »

Aye, saw that earlier today, and posted it elsewhere, dubbing the refusal of AU to contenance mass immigration of British unskilled immigrants quite the irony, in the circumstances.

The Leaver reply:
Obviously the fact that a UK-AU FoM has long been advocated -very publicly- as an essential component of the post-Brexit UK-AU relationship pursued by the UK, must have passed him by.

So I referred him to Lizz Truss speeches back in September 2019 (a non-exhaustive, but representative, example). Can't hardly wait for the exploding head once the India-UK (*with* FoM) gets underway.

I've seen a couple of exchanges pretty much word-for-word like that on twitter this morning. Didn't see any comeback arguments in reading through it all. Clearly these people knew exactly what they were voting for except for the bits that they weren't aware they were voting for.