Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)

reslfj

fash wrote: »

Only because the UK is no longer an EU member does it have fewer MEPs, otherwise France has the fewest number - similar to the electoral college system in the US. Both systems are designed to ensure a disproportionate voice to the smallest states to compensate for their small size.

The UK had 73 MEPs. Of these 27 has be reallocated to other EU27 member states to reflect the change in population in each member state since the number of MEPs for each member were fixed.

France got 5 extra MEPs reflecting a population growth from 63 million to 67 million (2006-2017).

Ireland got 2 extra MEPs reflecting a growth from 4.2 million to almost 4.8 million in the period.

Lars


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apportionment_in_the_European_Parliament
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/faq/12/how-many-meps

Enzokk

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

That would be a difficult point to make because the United Kingdom is a democratic union of nations.


In fact the biggest challenge to it being democratic is that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are all over represented in Parliament.


The average constituency size in Wales is 56,000, in Scotland 67,200, in Norther Ireland 68,300, in England 72,200.


It happened in the EU too. The United Kingdom had fewer MEPs per constituent than any other nation.

I like statistics as well, like how the Brexit Party got 181 000 votes per MEP, and in Germany the CDU/CSU got almost 11 million votes and got 29 seats. That is about 370 000 votes per MEP.

ThePanjandrum

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

That would be a difficult point to make because the United Kingdom is a democratic union of nations.


In fact the biggest challenge to it being democratic is that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are all over represented in Parliament.


The average constituency size in Wales is 56,000, in Scotland 67,200, in Norther Ireland 68,300, in England 72,200.


It happened in the EU too. The United Kingdom had fewer MEPs per constituent than any other nation.

If the UK was a democratic union of nations, England would have it's own devolved parliament. But we all know it's not and as someone above said, NI, Scot and Welsh assemblies are little more than large council's.

listermint

beggars_bush wrote: »

What can Scotland actually do though?

They are trapped by the previous independence referendum in a way, and have no way to force a new one

I'd presume it can be reasonably argued that the material circumstances have drastically changed and that EU membership was quite literally the core tenant for the No movement in 2014.

beggars_bush

listermint wrote: »

I'd presume it can be reasonably argued that the material circumstances have drastically changed and that EU membership was quite literally the core tenant for the No movement in 2014.

That's fine, but legally or constitutionally what can they actually do?

SantaCruz

beggars_bush wrote: »

That's fine, but legally or constitutionally what can they actually do?

Does begging their English masters for another 'democratic' vote count?

brickster69

reslfj wrote: »

Back to school and learning arithmetic.

UK car price in UK = 100% = 94-96% cost + 6-4% profit

UK car price in EU = 100%+10% = 110% - with existing profit

UK car price in EU = 94-96%+10% = 103.4 -105.6% - without any profit

UK car price in EU = 90.9%+10% = 100% - EU price unchanged, but at a loss.

Lars

Did you read what i said ? You are basing 4-6% as Gross Profit

Think like this, i will put it simply for you.

If you buy anything, take an example of a pint of beer in a bar.

Cost of a Pint of Beer is £1 and i have to sell it for £2 to make a certain % profit

Then the price goes up 10%

Now cost of beer is £1.10 so if i sell it for £2.20 do you think i am making the same or less profit. You can take, i don't know 42% GP

Leroy42

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

The United Kingdom voted as one country, as it should have because it was a single member of the EU. If England had voted to leave but the overall result had been to remain, do you think the remainers would still be making this argument?

Yeah I agree. Each member gets a vote but the majority should be the decisive factor. You can't change course simply because 1 part of the overall doesn't like it. That is what a union is all about.

Now, as for the EU, well UK are right that it is totally unacceptable that they had to accept some decisions just because the majority wanted it. That's the problem with unions and why the UK is better off out of it!

And therein lies the fundamental contradiction behind this entire facade. Brexiteers hate the union for the very reasons they proclaim to love the UK.

Leroy42

Leroy42 wrote: »

And therein lies the fundamental contradiction behind this entire facade. Brexiteers hate the union for the very reasons they proclaim to love the UK.

I've always enjoyed that aspect of it.

roots2branches

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

If anyone had any doubts that its core Brexit is about the underlying racism cultivated in British "culture", then read this top bbc story for today

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-norfolk-51341735

Oh for goodness sake! Some nasty nut job puts a poster up in a block of flats, the pro-remain BBC jump on it and you conclude 17.4 million people think the same.

brickster69

roots2branches wrote: »

and you conclude 17.4 million people think the same.

Yes, they don't conclude that. They believe it :eek:

Leroy42

Clearly one instance should be treated as it is, just some random keyboard warrior getting a bit ahead of themselves.

The problem is that we see this type of thing again and again. The celebrations on Brexit day were very much tinged with the idea of Britain first. The entire debate has included a large portion of the view that anyone saying anything against Britain or Brexit is a traitor, TM was called that many times. It is very hard to view the insistence that people wanted their country back and that that there are too many immigrants and not link that to an increased hostility and openness of that hostility.

Racist attacks shot up after the result.

Remoaners, rather than remainers, is used to deride their views, to make they seem like they are moaning and of no importance. The 48% have been told to get with the program, "You Lost, get over it" is a favorite saying of people like Mark Francois. But at the same time calling for ever more hard Brexits completely at odds with what people voted for.

So whilst one instance can never be taken as meaning anything, it is also foolish to simply brush it off without looking at the context and the situation that it took place in. Simply passing it off as a one time thing is no more honest than those that try to extrapolate it without further evidence

roots2branches

Leroy42 wrote: »

Clearly one instance should be treated as it is, just some random keyboard warrior getting a bit ahead of themselves.

The problem is that we see this type of thing again and again. The celebrations on Brexit day were very much tinged with the idea of Britain first. The entire debate has included a large portion of the view that anyone saying anything against Britain or Brexit is a traitor, TM was called that many times. It is very hard to view the insistence that people wanted their country back and that that there are too many immigrants and not link that to an increased hostility and openness of that hostility.

Racist attacks shot up after the result.

Remoaners, rather than remainers, is used to deride their views, to make they seem like they are moaning and of no importance. The 48% have been told to get with the program, "You Lost, get over it" is a favorite saying of people like Mark Francois. But at the same time calling for ever more hard Brexits completely at odds with what people voted for.

So whilst one instance can never be taken as meaning anything, it is also foolish to simply brush it off without looking at the context and the situation that it took place in. Simply passing it off as a one time thing is no more honest than those that try to extrapolate it without further evidence

I really think it depends on the media. For example, the BBC revelling in anything anti brexit, as does the Guardian and indeed just about all of the Irish media.
They just don't get it.
I look at all my friends in the UK who voted for brexit and they are all decent, good, hard working people who'd never hurt a fly. That's the reality as I see it.
Of course you'll always get a tiny minority but looking at my facebook feed, it's those on the left, and I speak as someone who has a balance of friends left and right, but my friends on the left, the pro remainers who are the most bigoted, hate filled and unpatriotic of them all. That's my observation.
The UK had a vote and one side won. At the end of the day democracy only works with the losers consent.

Christy42

roots2branches wrote: »

Oh for goodness sake! Some nasty nut job puts a poster up in a block of flats, the pro-remain BBC jump on it and you conclude 17.4 million people think the same.

Certainly not all of them do. However most seem happy to ignore it. There has been a rise in racism due to Brexit but I have not seen people push back against it. It is being done in the name of Brexit. Non racist Brexiteers should be shouting it down from the rafters.

How do you expect foreigners living there to feel safe? Maybe the culprit is just a keyboard warrior. Maybe they are building up. Not sure I would want to be betting my life on which it was if I was living there.

Sam Russell

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

If anyone had any doubts that its core Brexit is about the underlying racism cultivated in British "culture", then read this top bbc story for today

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-norfolk-51341735

I think his is the latest manifestation of 'No blacks, No dogs, No Irish' of the English lower classes.*

The racists are still there. You see them at football matches, you see them at protests, you see them racists everywhere.


*The upper classes are a little more nuanced but just as racist.

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think his is the latest manifestation of 'No blacks, No dogs, No Irish' of the English lower classes.*

The racists are still there. You see them at football matches, you see them at protests, you see them racists everywhere.


*The upper classes are a little more nuanced but just as racist.

The "upper classes" can afford to buy separation from the "undesirables", when you import millions of homo sapiens, you have to house them somewhere. So pushing them into accommodation with the poorest 50% is an easy option. Combine that with the mostly motivated immigrant's acceptance of poor living conditions to undercut the local low income workers, and you provide an environment for racism to flourish.
This is of course well known to those who are pulling the strings for Brexit, they actually want to import even more homo sapiens from non-EU countries to drive the working wage even lower.
Brexit allows them to relax the labour laws even further.

Brexit voters will come to discover that they were sold a pup!

In the pursuit of infinite growth, nothing is sacred when it comes to a billionaire increasing their bank balance.

ArmaniJeanss

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

It happened in the EU too. The United Kingdom had fewer MEPs per constituent than any other nation.

This wasn't strictly true (France/Germany slightly worse off I think) but close enough not to argue.
What was the solution though?

Presumably the countries with the smallest population should still have at least 1 MEP, so that's 1 for Malta (pop 500K). If we proportion that out such that the UK aren't under-represented it means the UK having 120 MEPs, Germany around 150 etc. So it looks as if we are quite dramatically increasing the size of the parliament.

And one could argue that just 1 MEP for Malta is quite wrong democratically. In order to represent more political/societal viewpoints fairly then they should have minimum 2 MEPs. Maintaining the proportions thus puts the UK up to 240 MEPs and the rest growing accordingly.
A perfectly proportioned parliament and the UK Leavers can't complain they are under-represented. Though instead they'd be talking about the worlds biggest bloatest unwieldiest parliament and how we ought to leave because of that.

Capt'n Midnight

Tea Shock wrote: »

Re trade talks. Hopping between BBC Sky and CNN last night.... The UK Media are STILL talking about how the EU will fold in the last days of the transition period. Because they have many times before.... Apparently

That wasn't surprising but what was surprising was the peo-Brexit and anti EU slant on CNNs coverage.

Blame Canada.


Looks like Canada with Level Playing Field and mixed messages.
But Canada took ages to ratify and the cheesemakers will have to wait years to get full access.


Leo Varadkar has warned difficulties in forming a government in the Republic of Ireland could directly impact Britain's post-Brexit trade deal.

Capt'n Midnight

Remember the way the Blue Passports have to be made abroad because of competition rules ?

And that the UK couldn't give state aid to De La Rue ?

And the way that the French got around that EU rule by claiming national security to get their passports done by the local company ?


This time the French are playing the strategically important assets card.
The sale of British Steel to Chinese firm Jingye could be scuppered by French intervention.

Strazdas

Christy42 wrote: »

Certainly not all of them do. However most seem happy to ignore it. There has been a rise in racism due to Brexit but I have not seen people push back against it. It is being done in the name of Brexit. Non racist Brexiteers should be shouting it down from the rafters.

How do you expect foreigners living there to feel safe? Maybe the culprit is just a keyboard warrior. Maybe they are building up. Not sure I would want to be betting my life on which it was if I was living there.

100% : not every Leave voter is a racist (that would be a sweeping generalisation and very unfair) but nearly racist and bigot in England supports Brexit.

It's the 'elephant in the room' if you find yourself on the Brexit side.

Enzokk

roots2branches wrote: »

Oh for goodness sake! Some nasty nut job puts a poster up in a block of flats, the pro-remain BBC jump on it and you conclude 17.4 million people think the same.

brickster69 wrote: »

Yes, they don't conclude that. They believe it :eek:

You don't have to search hard to find similar incidents the past few days though,

https://twitter.com/theJeremyVine/status/1223888902919946241?s=20

As for the upcoming negotiations, they haven't started yet but the blame game is well under way.

https://twitter.com/lionelbarber/status/1223895200768106497?s=20

Dominic Raab seems to be under the impression that borders are nothing more than theory and that they can be discarded with for no reason and they are actually quite useless,

https://twitter.com/Mij_Europe/status/1223890497594437632?s=20

The same threats and the same game plan it seems from Johnson. He is once again threatening to shoot himself in the foot and will blame the EU for the consequences.

https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1223727734926577673?s=20

Finally two tweets from Brexiteers that make me question whether they are just thick or deliberately lying for their own means.

https://twitter.com/DouglasCarswell/status/1223719131851128845?s=20

https://twitter.com/DanielJHannan/status/1223660421514698761?s=20

I think Carswell may be a little thick, and Hannan is just lying. Remember that no-one is threatening the UK's place in the single market.

ThePanjandrum

Strazdas wrote: »

100% : not every Leave voter is a racist (that would be a sweeping generalisation and very unfair) but nearly racist and bigot in England supports Brexit.

It's the 'elephant in the room' if you find yourself on the Brexit side.

That is such a stupid and unthinking quote. The only political party in the UK to be investigated by the Equality and Human Rights Commission for racism is the Labour Party. The majority of Labour Party members voted to Remain, therefore it seems likely that at least as many racists voted to Remain as to Leave.


And the British Fascists campaigned to join the European Community.

Infini

I actually do wonder with all the shítpeddling that Boris and friends love to pull along with their right wing tabloid supporters about all this how long they would TRULY last if the EU were to intentionally move to tank their economy, I know many don't deserve it over there considering a sizable number of their countrymen and their political establishment have a cancerous level of idiocy and chancers but I wonder how long they would last if the EU essentially tarriffed the hell out of everything British and ended all agreements at once.

I honestly think the only way to either make them see sense or purge their stupidity is to basically make them learn the hard way, I don't like it but honestly there is no reasoning with idiots, chancers and braindead fools they lack any ability to comprehend, reason or critically analyze situations they'll deny reality just like the Dumbáss Unionist Party up north and will only truly reconsider when faced with the overwhelming consequences of their belligerence and stupidity.

Igotadose

Interesting the same old same old strategy from the UKIP Tory's is playing out today in the press... on ground hog day! In fact, ground hog palindrome day!

SantaCruz

It does look very much like we are in day 1 of 'Blame the EU for all the inevitable consequences of Brexit', exactly as predicted here previously.

I wonder if our Brexit apologists have any observation to make on this?

It's interesting - scientific theories are validated by successful predictions. I wonder does the same hold for political theories?

ThePanjandrum

Infini wrote: »

I actually do wonder with all the shítpeddling that Boris and friends love to pull along with their right wing tabloid supporters about all this how long they would TRULY last if the EU were to intentionally move to tank their economy, I know many don't deserve it over there considering a sizable number of their countrymen and their political establishment have a cancerous level of idiocy and chancers but I wonder how long they would last if the EU essentially tarriffed the hell out of everything British and ended all agreements at once.

I honestly think the only way to either make them see sense or purge their stupidity is to basically make them learn the hard way, I don't like it but honestly there is no reasoning with idiots, chancers and braindead fools they lack any ability to comprehend, reason or critically analyze situations they'll deny reality just like the Dumbáss Unionist Party up north and will only truly reconsider when faced with the overwhelming consequences of their belligerence and stupidity.

Ok, I see you admit that there is no reasoning with you but it would also destroy the EU, Ignore WTO rules and possibly involve the EU in major retaliation from other economies.

sid waddell

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

That is such a stupid and unthinking quote. The only political party in the UK to be investigated by the Equality and Human Rights Commission for racism is the Labour Party. The majority of Labour Party members voted to Remain, therefore it seems likely that at least as many racists voted to Remain as to Leave.


And the British Fascists campaigned to join the European Community.

As wacky bad takes go, that's way out there.

ThePanjandrum

SantaCruz wrote: »

It's interesting - scientific theories are validated by successful predictions. I wonder does the same hold for political theories?

Replicability. Scientific hypotheses are tested by replicability. Scientific theories are not validated by successful predictions.

SantaCruz

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

Replicability. Scientific hypotheses are tested by replicability. Scientific theories are not validated by successful predictions.

Replicability? I'm not sure you understand what you googled there. Also, I was referring to theories, not hypotheses - if you want to be so pedantic.

Continue googling and you will see there is quite a difference.

ThePanjandrum

sid waddell wrote: »

As wacky bad takes go, that's way out there.

So are you saying:


1. The number of anti-Semites in the Labour Party is insignificant?
2. Anti-Semitism is not racist? or
3. The number of Labour Party members voting to remain was insignificant?
4. Or were you just looking facts in their face and denying them?


Oh, here's Oswald Mosley