Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)

sondagefaux

Enzokk wrote: »

It is interesting to me that the EU has quickly gotten to the idea that the UK will be looking at trading with WTO rules instead of an FA. This is apparent by the UK calling for an Australia deal with the EU, with Australia not having a trade deal with the UK it means WTO.

Michael Gove confirms post-Brexit trade barriers will be imposed



As long as the UK is transparent with it's objectives it gives the EU a fighting chance to mitigate the damage.

As for potential checks and delays,

https://twitter.com/donnyc1975/status/1227144936434405376?s=20

Twitter thread in one link

Basically if the same amount of checks are done as at the Swiss border it means around 20% of shipments will need to have queries done on them due to errors in documentation. This would then need the courier would need to get in touch with the dispatching company to resend the correct documents. If the company isn't open after hours and they happen to be at the border after closing time, then it means hours of delays until the corrected documents can be sent.

The checks required on entry to the EU and/or UK will be more intense than required between Switzerland and the EU.

This is because Switzerland has agreed to implement EU food production and food safety law, Sanitary and Phyto-Sanitary (SPS) law, and so Swiss/EU animals and foods of animal origin (meat, fish/seafood, dairy products, eggs, poultry, processed foods with these as ingredients) aren't subject to SPS checks when traded between Switzerland and the EU.

As Michael Gove's speech stated, these checks will be required on these products being traded between the EU and Britain (also between NI and Britain and vice versa, as NI will use EU rules), and this will lead to physical checks in some cases and document checks (plenty of scope for clerical errors!) in all cases, both in Britain and the EU/NI.

This is very far from the frictionless trade between the UK and Europe promised by Gove during the referendum campaign, when those saying customs and regulatory checks would be needed were dismissed as promoting 'Project Fear'.

sondagefaux

An article about trade in services and how Brexit may affect it:

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/british-services-have-played-second-fiddle-in-the-brexit-debate/

Peregrinus

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I note the last paragraph of the statement...

So they're leaving a big wide door open there :rolleyes:

Leroy42 wrote: »

I think the Uk are preparing the ground for a row back on the WA. My thinking on thier thinking is that they always wanted the NI border to be dealt with as part of the trade negotiations and will use a possible default, and thus a hard border, to force the EU to give them what they want . . .

Gove's announcement is about import controls, i.e. controls on goods imported into the UK. Whereas the EU's concern regarding the NI/GB border is about goods exported from GB to NI. If the UK fails to control imports from NI to GB, this doesn't greatly bother the EU.

It create's a problem for the UK, though, since as Seth points out it provides a handy route for people who want to import goods into the UK without having them controlled or inspected. If the goods don't orginate in Ireland, shipping them to Ireland in order to move them to NI and then bring them into GB without inspection could be quite time-consuming/expensive, and HMG may be relying on this to limit the size of the wide open door. But for low-bulk, high value goods - e.g. pharmaceuticals - it'll be very attractive. And of course for illegal goods, contraband, etc. Sounds like HMG is intent on creating a nice new line of business to ensure a steady income stream for The Lads.

Peregrinus

sondagefaux wrote: »

Getting Brexit done.

https://support.n26.com/en-gb/getting-started/account/my-account

The salient point here is that N26 could continue to trade in the UK. Obvs they can trade until end 2020, and after that the Bank of England has a Temporary Permission Regime they could avail of (though it would involve addtional costs, compared to the current rules). Then, in the worst analysis, they could apply for their own UK banking licence (more costs again) though there's obviously a chance that by then (2024) there'd be an FTA in place that offered a cheaper alternative to getting a UK banking licence.

But they have decided not to bother. The continuing indecision, the uncertainty about what the UK will do or even what it wants to do, the still conflicting statements emerging from government, the unrealistic positions adopted - the UK market is just not interesting enough to them to make a continuing commitment to the UK market while they wait to see whether, when the dust settles, it's going to be a market they want to be in. They've already opened in the US; they are about to open in Brazil; they may have other markets to explore/consider. The UK is a signficant market but that is weighed against the the delay, the indecision and possibly the increasingly negative signals from government about the likely intended landing zone, and they's decided it's not a priority for them.

And in fact this is going to be a large part of the impact of Brexit - not that investment in the UK will be excluded, but that it will be attended by more niusance and more political risk and, the size of the UK market notwithstanding, this tips the balance against pursuing opportunities in the UK.

banie01

listermint wrote: »

german online bank N26 shutting down entire uk operationn and UK accounts.

Financial Services and in particular UCITS and ETF that rely on KIID and EU passporting are flowing out of Londo in staggering amounts.

The simple questions of economic intraoperability were just ignored in the UK's race to regain Sovreignty IMO.

Very little knowledge of what the EU is and what benefits it briings were apparent across all the debates.

I mean Ex-Pats living on the Costa coming home to vote leave is the abiding memory I will hold of the referendum.

serfboard

banie01 wrote: »

I mean Ex-Pats living on the Costa coming home to vote leave is the abiding memory I will hold of the referendum.

Saw an item on Channel 4 News of them interviewing retired English ex-pats in Spain and the amount of them that were Brexiteers was depressingly high.

I was both shocked, and not surprised, if that makes any sense.

El Weirdo

banie01 wrote: »

... Ex-Pats living on the Costa ...

serfboard wrote: »

... English ex-pats in Spain ...

Do you mean English immigrants? Because that's exactly what they are. Immigrants.

wexfordman2

listermint wrote: »

Smallest operator?

You have current customer figures?

By market share, they are the third operator of the three with physical networks, yes.

serfboard

El Weirdo wrote: »

Do you mean English immigrants? Because that's exactly what they are. Immigrants.

Indeed.

Ex-pat is one of those irregular adjectives - a white person living in another country is an ex-pat, a brown person is an immigrant.

Strazdas

serfboard wrote: »

Indeed.

Ex-pat is one of those irregular adjectives - a white person living in another country is an ex-pat, a brown person is an immigrant.

Ex-pat suggests a person of means, whose career has taken them abroad for a couple of years.

serfboard

Strazdas wrote: »

Ex-pat suggests a person of means, whose career has taken them abroad for a couple of years.

Yeah, I think that's more accurate.

Tacitus Kilgore

Strazdas wrote: »

Ex-pat suggests a person of means, whose career has taken them abroad for a couple of years.

serfboard wrote: »

Yeah, I think that's more accurate.

So, a wealthy immigrant?

serfboard

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

So, a wealthy immigrant?

No, I think that there's a time factor:

Strazdas wrote: »

a person of means, whose career has taken them abroad for a couple of years.

Immigrant implies someone who's staying forever.

Strazdas

Strazdas wrote: »

Ex-pat suggests a person of means, whose career has taken them abroad for a couple of years.

Correct!

Ex-pat is someone who can pay their way without working or claiming benefits (mostly pensioners, or early retired), quite different from a migrant who either comes to work or sponge.

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/feb/12/home-office-tells-man-101-his-parents-must-confirm-id

An Italian man was asked to get his parents to confirm his identity by the Home Office after he applied to stay in the country post-Brexit.

He's lived in the UK since 1966. He is 101 years old.

While the mistake seemed like a small computer bug, it was not a small mistake because the computer system “only recognised the last two digits of his year of birth”, Assuntino continued.

Even after that they still asked for proof of residence even though his pension is being paid.


If easy stuff like this is broken it's hard to have any faith in the difficult stuff.


I might look up the numbers later but IIRC about half of the people who applied using the app got the lesser status rather than full rights.

serfboard

Deleted User wrote: »

Ex-pat is someone who can pay their way without working

Don't think that's true.

The Irish community in Brussels, many of whom work on secondment for the EU, are often referred to as an "ex-pat" community, but they could not pay their way without working.

CelticRambler

Deleted User wrote: »

Ex-pat is someone who can pay their way without working or claiming benefits (mostly pensioners, or early retired), quite different from a migrant who either comes to work or sponge.

On the contrary: an "ex-pat" for most purposes is someone who is living and working in a country other than their home, but essentially retains all their links with their native country pending their expected return. My sister would be one of them - although living and working in Germany for more than a decade, she'll hop on a plane to Ireland as often as she can, still has her house in Dublin, and would be hard pressed to tell you what was going on in Germany beyond the boundaries of her adopted city.

A migrant is someone who's left and burnt the bridge behind them, with every intention of settling in their chosen land and no plan ever to return "home". I'm one of those: a fully-fledged immigrant who count on one hand the number of anglophones I've spoken to this month, and when a friend texted me to ask what I thought of the election results, I had to google it to find out what had happened (... I was distracted by work over the weekend, otherwise I'd probably would have paid attention - but it wasn't a priority).

In practical terms, when referring to retirees, you'd almost be better describing them as "stateless" - they don't work, they don't integrate, they don't necessarily contribute to the local culture, they often do remain whole-heartedly anchored in the socio-political traditions of their homeland - even when these have evolved in their absence. That may be a good reason for not allowing them to vote in any elections - but there's probably some human rights rule about it somewhere ... :rolleyes:

moon2

serfboard wrote: »

Indeed.

Ex-pat is one of those irregular adjectives - a white person living in another country is an ex-pat, a brown person is an immigrant.

Precisely. I have worked abroad in more than one company with high quantities of immigrant employees. In my experience ex-pat is used pretty much exclusively by white immigrants. It didn't correlate to wealth or income.

Immigrant was my preferred term to describe my status. I didn't like the "I'm a white immigrant but don't want to call myself an immigrant" connotations associated with "ex-pat".

That's neither here nor there though

RobMc59

Deleted User wrote: »

Correct!

Ex-pat is someone who can pay their way without working or claiming benefits (mostly pensioners, or early retired), quite different from a migrant who either comes to work or sponge.

I used to work in Wales but live in England,the Welsh lads would give the English workers lighthearted flak for taking their jobs!Would that make us economic migrants or does`nt it count if it`s all the UK?

moon2

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You are a complete and utter retard if you don't understand how the expat versus immigrant argument works.

No need to be insulting.

I understand your argument about the idealised interpretation of these phrases. My experience is that the idealised interpretation does not apply in practice.

Either you're calling me a liar or you are choosing to disregard my experience because it doesn't match yours. Which is it?

BonnieSituation

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You're not allowed to call people liars in this forum. My use of "You" was not specific to any one person.

I want to speak to my lawyer.

You're not allowed call people retards either. Didn't stop you.

sondagefaux

Deleted User wrote: »

Correct!

Ex-pat is someone who can pay their way without working or claiming benefits (mostly pensioners, or early retired), quite different from a migrant who either comes to work or sponge.

Does Ireland have an Irish Naturalisation and Ex-Pat Service for these folks?

http://www.inis.gov.ie/

Does Ireland offer a special Ex-Pat Stamp for these folks?

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Stamp%200

sondagefaux

Strazdas wrote: »

Ex-pat suggests a person of means, whose career has taken them abroad for a couple of years.

So a retired plumber from Essex living in Spain is a person of means whose career has taken them abroad for a couple of years?

listermint

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Correct!

Ex-pat is someone who can pay their way without working or claiming benefits (mostly pensioners, or early retired), quite different from a migrant who either comes to work or sponge.

Your definition of migration is flawed.

Specifically the part about migrants .

Let's see is it that EU migrants contribute £2300 more per year to the economy than the average british citizen.

Yeah perhaps it's that.

You should be embarrassed expressing such baseless definitions, they only highlight a lack of thought.

Strazdas

sondagefaux wrote: »

So a retired plumber from Essex living in Spain is a person of means whose career has taken them abroad for a couple of years?

I would say the Brexit pensioners are not ex-pats, neither are those younger people doing bar or club work in Ibiza. They are immigrants.

sondagefaux

Strazdas wrote: »

I would say the Brexit pensioners are not ex-pats, neither are those younger people doing bar or club work in Ibiza. They are immigrants.

Of course they are. Ex-pats is a loaded term, invented and used by snobs who can't bring themselves to admit they're no better than any other immigrants.

mayo.mick

Handy questioner guide to brexit here;

https://www.gov.uk/transition-check/questions

sondagefaux

A practical example of what leaving the EU is going to mean for UK business:

https://www.dragoneurotrade.com/shipping

This Dutch wholesaler has a minimum order of €750 for Switzerland, whereas it's only €100 for the EU.

In addition, its shipping charges to Norway (in the Single Market, not in the Customs Union) is €35.00, plus a €30.00 clearance fee, compared to only €12.50 for shipping to Sweden.

Similarly, shipping charges to Switzerland are far higher than for EU countries: €29.50 plus a €30.00 clearance fee for Switzerland, compared to only €11.95 for shipping to Poland.

Even if there's a trade deal between the UK and the EU, the requirement to make a far higher minimum order, and to pay far higher delivery charges (currently only €9.50 to the UK) than now, will mean that some UK businesses won't be able to import from this company.

Result? Less choice for UK consumers, less competition, higher prices.

strandroad

The original meaning of expat is someone sent temporarily abroad (expatriated) by their company or institution to serve in its local branch, be it a global bank or an embassy. Usually living in a compound or villa with next to no contact with local daily life, children educated privately in dedicated schools etc. Part of a clearly defined milieu with people coming and going as their contracts end.

Anyone else claiming to be an expat, whether it's an Essex plumber in Spain or a TEFL teacher from Limerick in South Korea is just a bog standard immigrant with notions...

looksee

strandroad wrote: »

The original meaning of expat is someone sent temporarily abroad (expatriated) by their company or institution to serve in its local branch, be it a global bank or an embassy. Usually living in a compound or villa with next to no contact with local daily life, children educated privately in dedicated schools etc. Part of a clearly defined milieu with people coming and going as their contracts end.

Finally, someone who knows what they are talking about.