Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)

ambro25

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

The departing Lib Dem MEPs leave a food hamper for FF's incoming Barry Andrews:

https://twitter.com/Andrews4Europe/status/1230104830930300930

Yorkshire Tea, Yorkshire pudding mix and a bottle of Hendo's?

Mr Shaffaq Mohammed, LibDem MEP for Yorkshire and the Humber, had a good hand in this, at a guess

An Ciarraioch

Google has declared that UK account users will no longer be protected by GDPR, but subject to US data regulations:

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN20D2M3?__twitter_impression=true

Lemming

Strazdas wrote: »

Let's call a spade a spade here. Most Leave voters voted Leave to stop immigrants moving to the UK (they will deny this furiously of course.....at the same time as claiming how immigrants are a huge burden to Britain).

Schrodingers immigrant; simultaneously mooching off welfare and stealing your job.

The man I cited above did get asked if he had concerns about sounding racist; he didn't care. The woman I mentioned sounded more as having a lack of general awareness than anything else. She acknowledged these foreign workers were contributing yet could not put two and two together regards her opinion.

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Google has declared that UK account users will no longer be protected by GDPR, but subject to US data regulations:

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN20D2M3?__twitter_impression=true

That's on top of the US having little in the way of data privacy rights and virtually none for non-US citizens.

MrMusician18

Lemming wrote: »

Schrodingers immigrant; simultaneously mooching off welfare and stealing your job.

The man I cited above did get asked if he had concerns about sounding racist; he didn't care. The woman I mentioned sounded more as having a lack of general awareness than anything else. She acknowledged these foreign workers were contributing yet could not put two and two together regards her opinion.



That's on top of the US having little in the way of data privacy rights and virtually none for non-US citizens.

The UK has a system of in-work benefits.

UK data will still be subject to UK data laws.

Sam Russell

MrMusician18 wrote: »

UK data will still be subject to UK data laws.

I think Google said they are moving the data to the US - so no,there will be no protection for UK data from UK data laws, unless the duplicate the EU GDPR laws.

ancapailldorcha

MrMusician18 wrote: »

The UK has a system of in-work benefits.

UK data will still be subject to UK data laws.

I think the question is one of aligment. There are three regulatory superpowers in the EU, the US and China. The UK is effectively going to have to pick one by necessity.

Strazdas

Lemming wrote: »

Schrodingers immigrant; simultaneously mooching off welfare and stealing your job.

The man I cited above did get asked if he had concerns about sounding racist; he didn't care. The woman I mentioned sounded more as having a lack of general awareness than anything else. She acknowledged these foreign workers were contributing yet could not put two and two together regards her opinion.

There's a method to Johnson and Cummings' madness of course. Pitch everything at the xenophobes and racists and use them to get reelected next time.

MrMusician18

Strazdas wrote: »

There's a method to Johnson and Cummings' madness of course. Pitch everything at the xenophobes and racists and use them to get reelected next time.

This is not about re-election. Re-election won't be on the horizon for another 3 years. This is about the genuine direction Johnson's government want to take the UK.

Brendan Filone

Whatever happened to that report around Russian interference that was controversially not released during the GE campaign? Swept under the carpet?

Lemming

MrMusician18 wrote: »

This is not about re-election. Re-election won't be on the horizon for another 3 years. This is about the genuine direction Johnson's government want to take the UK.

This is about culling the social welfare budget. It's the single biggest ticket item of expenditure from what I recall a while back. More than Trident by a comfortable margin. Immigration is a convenient distraction; a "benefit" for those so inclined to view immigration and immigrants through that particular prism but a distraction nonetheless. Given the deeply unpopular news being generated by the carnage that is the Universal Credit rollout along with the appaling number of seemingly related deaths, news of attacking the social welfare budget on top would go down like a lead balloon. The Tories have just managed to wrap two news articles into one instead of the typical "launch a distraction news piece, then the second more important but controversial one hoping to fly by under the radar".

ancapailldorcha

Lemming wrote: »

This is about culling the social welfare budget. It's the single biggest ticket item of expenditure from what I recall a while back. More than Trident by a comfortable margin. Immigration is a distraction; a "benefit" for those so inclined to view immigration and immigrants through that particular prism but a distraction nonetheless.

Unemployment benefits barely figure though. That's purely political. Pensions are far and away the biggest expense on that front.

Lemming

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Unemployment benefits barely figure though. That's purely political. Pensions are far and away the biggest expense on that front.

I could be mistaken; I just remember it being a notably large slice of the national budget. Given the Tories "love" of the poor and the vulnerable, along with the lower statistical voting behaviour entailed vs, say pensioners, it stands to reason that this is their first port of call.

Just looking at the ONS data breakdown summary (to the year ending 2017) ; whilst pensions i the largest single slice of the social welfare budget (that may have been where I got confused; they were lumped together), the breakdown is as follows:

• Pensions: 111 bn
• Incapacity, disability & injury benefits: 44 bn
• Unemployment: 2bn
• Housing benefits: 25 bn
• Family benefits, income support & tax credits: 46bn
• Personal social services and other benefits: 35bn

Given means testing would be applied, outside of pensions, forcing people into the workforce who are otherwise not capable for whatever reason would see many lose eligibility for some of the benefits listed. Disabled? How can you be disabled if you're working? Housing benefit? But you're earning now, so we'll have some of that back, etc. etc. etc. imagination etc.

Shelga

Lemming wrote: »

Staggering in the ignorance and absolute lack of self awareness on display. Everything from the woman complaining that local services were all just "too busy" to the man talking about seeing his son & his friends unable to get minimum wage jobs and yet foreigners were "cheap labour" without so much as a pause for thought of what he was saying, or trying to lay it on about his son "having to go to university and taking on that debt" instead of staying local in a dead-end job on minimum wage. Hmmmmm, let me think about that one for a se ... nope.

I heard that yesterday too!- thought to myself how small-minded and ridiculous the man sounded. God forbid his son has to leave the local area, competing with others for Deliveroo biker jobs, and actually go and try get some qualifications.

When it comes to Brexit, I'm stricter with myself now about how much I let myself listen to UK media. Especially with our own politics becoming more interesting recently.

So sick of it, could no longer give a toss what happens to them as long as it doesn't affect us.

54and56

Shelga wrote: »

When it comes to Brexit, I'm stricter with myself now about how much I let myself listen to UK media. Especially with our own politics becoming more interesting recently.

So sick of it, could no longer give a toss what happens to them as long as it doesn't affect us.

This all day long. Am listening to LBC about 10% of the time I used to before Jan 31st as I no longer really care about internal British politics. They are now a competitive threat to the EU so my only interest is in making sure Barnier & Co hold firm on the key principles of the four freedoms and conclude a deal which reflects the 6-1 advantage the EU has over the UK just as the UK (or any other country) which had a 6 times advantage over its counterpart would do in international trade agreements.

Can't wait to see what happens when BoJo & Co tell Trump they they are commencing negotiations on the basis of sovereign equals. :-)

WomanSkirtFan8

i agree completely. This whole thing has gone beyond a farce at this stage. Have gotten brexit fatigue at numerous points and to be quite honest, i'm bloody well sick of it now at this stage and couldn't care less what happens to the uk now. They've made their bed so now they've got to lie on it.

Bit cynical

WomanSkirtFan8 wrote: »

i agree completely. This whole thing has gone beyond a farce at this stage. Have gotten brexit fatigue at numerous points and to be quite honest, i'm bloody well sick of it now at this stage and couldn't care less what happens to the uk now. They've made their bed so now they've got to lie on it.

However we're still concerned about how the potential deal will affect us here in Ireland.

J Mysterio

So, not only will it be very difficult to relocate to the UK under proposed immigration rehaul (assuming you actually wanted to), but it will also be prohibitively expensive.

UK’s expensive visa fees 'could deter NHS staff and scientists'

At £1,220 per person, or £900 for those on the shortage occupation list, the fees are among the highest in the world – and this is before charges for using the NHS and costs for sponsoring employers are taken into account.

Comparisons with fee structures in other countries, published by the Institute for Government (IfG) thinktank, show that a family of five with a five-year work visa for one individual would have to pay £21,299 before they could enter in the country.

This includes the annual £400 health surchargethat must also be paid upfront per person. This is double the fee charged by Australia and about 30 times the amount charged by Canada, where it costs just over £10,000 for a family for five years. Germany charges £756 for entry for a family of that size.

Spectacular own goal after spectacular own goal. It's absolutely ludicrous. One would have to conclude that Cummings, Johnson, Patel et all are actually just nihilists.

Zubeneschamali

J Mysterio wrote: »

One would have to conclude that Cummings, Johnson, Patel et all are actually just nihilists.

Maybe they are genuinely trying to address the concerns of voters. Leave the EU. Really leave, not BRINO. Stop immigration, especially unskilled.

These are all horribly damaging policies, but arguably popular, even with ex Labour voters.

Enzokk

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Maybe they are genuinely trying to address the concerns of voters. Leave the EU. Really leave, not BRINO. Stop immigration, especially unskilled.

These are all horribly damaging policies, but arguably popular, even with ex Labour voters.

Could be, but surely they know those concerns are bogus? We aren't talking about people who would be fooled by headlines you see on the newsstands everyday. Or at least we shouldn't be talking about people being fooled by the headlines.

Looking at the stories coming out about Priti Patel she doesn't instill confidence on doing the right thing. Seems she will do what she wants to do, legal or not.

https://twitter.com/Simon_Nixon/status/1230400925875023874?s=20

“A Home Office source said: Sir Philip and [Priti Patel] have a fundamental disagreement about the rule of law. He’s committed and she isn’t.” Extraordinary story.

Enzokk

As per my previous post, this is what you expect to hear from someone who believes the drivel the newspapers have been printing for the last few years about immigration. The likes of Patel, Johnson and Cummings seems more like the types to feed them the lies than believe them.

https://twitter.com/bbcquestiontime/status/1230625055803133953?s=20

lawred2

Enzokk wrote: »

As per my previous post, this is what you expect to hear from someone who believes the drivel the newspapers have been printing for the last few years about immigration. The likes of Patel, Johnson and Cummings seems more like the types to feed them the lies than believe them.

https://twitter.com/bbcquestiontime/status/1230625055803133953?s=20

Wouldn't you hate to be consumed with such thoughts really?

Zubeneschamali

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Maybe they are genuinely trying to address the concerns of voters. Leave the EU. Really leave, not BRINO. Stop immigration, especially unskilled.

These are all horribly damaging policies, but arguably popular, even with ex Labour voters.

Maybe they have come to the conclusion that it is better not to try for infinite growth.
By not importing any more people they will be able to plateau growth and achieve full employment and eventually eliminate homelessness simply by making the natives do the work that currently are dome by immigrants.


Japan has had near zero growth for decades and it does not appear to have done them any serious harm.

Leroy42

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Maybe they have come to the conclusion that it is better not to try for infinite growth.
By not importing any more people they will be able to plateau growth and achieve full employment and eventually eliminate homelessness simply by making the natives do the work that currently are dome by immigrants.


Japan has had near zero growth for decades and it does not appear to have done them any serious harm.

They are running a deficit. Without growth they cannot pay that back, and will struggle to borrow more. So taxes will have to increase to cover the difference.

On the QT clip, I wonder does she feel the same about the British abroad?
And why is she not asking the question as to why other countries charge yet not the UK. If only there was some type of governmental type body that could be held to account!

listermint

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Maybe they have come to the conclusion that it is better not to try for infinite growth.
By not importing any more people they will be able to plateau growth and achieve full employment and eventually eliminate homelessness simply by making the natives do the work that currently are dome by immigrants.


Japan has had near zero growth for decades and it does not appear to have done them any serious harm.

Let's be clear.


There is no evidence that these people have a strategy any strategy. There is no evidence past or present that they are doing anything but winging it.

The notion they are playing economics superbowl is not plausible

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe they have come to the conclusion that it is better not to try for infinite growth.

I suppose the "sovereignty at any cost" mantra would suggest that they're now doing it in spite of stalled growth, rather than for it.

Leroy42

listermint wrote: »

Let's be clear.


There is no evidence that these people have a strategy any strategy. There is no evidence past or present that they are doing anything but winging it.

The notion they are playing economics superbowl is not plausible

Exactly. Where has anyone said they are looking for no growth? I though the whole point of Brexit was that it opened up the UK to the world, that the rest of the world was where future growth lay, not in staid old Europe.

greenfield21

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Maybe they have come to the conclusion that it is better not to try for infinite growth.
By not importing any more people they will be able to plateau growth and achieve full employment and eventually eliminate homelessness simply by making the natives do the work that currently are dome by immigrants.


Japan has had near zero growth for decades and it does not appear to have done them any serious harm.

You would also think we could see a greater drive for innovation within business. Leading to increasing automation. All good things imo.

Sam Russell

greenfield21 wrote: »

You would also think we could see a greater drive for innovation within business. Leading to increasing automation. All good things imo.

That sounds like a good plan.

However, if you look at the types of jobs that low paid immigrants do, they tend to be jobs that cannot be automated. Jobs like hospitality and child and patient care. Jobs like cleaning, and fruit picking. Jobs like labouring on building sites. Or even the Polish symbol, the plumber.

It will not turn out well.

Xertz

All I would say is that forcing an economy into radical reshaping, structural or socioeconomic changes to suit an ideological notion is usually a recipe for absolute disaster. It's impossible to foresee all of the unintended consequences and the intended ones are fairly radical and aggressive to start with.

I think there's a bit of a risk of people sitting in a tech bubble somewhere imagining that they can solve everything with automation and AI are driving this. The UK isn't some tech start up. It's a pretty large, complex, mixed economy that has run as a social democracy since the early 20th century. If you start undermining those things, you will cause serious economic shocks and very dire social and economic consequences for many.

Not only that, but the people who are driving these notions aren't even expert in any of these areas. They're largely a bunch of populists and jingoists two are trying to fit an economy to their ideological needs, rather than fitting the politics to the practical needs of the society they're supposed to be the elected government of.

It's reckless, dangerous and carries enormous risks to the 66 million who live in the UK.

Whatever their points of view or political outlook, they are introducing enormous risks and they will ultimately hit the most vulnerable in society i.e. those who don't have a financial buffer.

Christy42

greenfield21 wrote: »

You would also think we could see a greater drive for innovation within business. Leading to increasing automation. All good things imo.

The more usual solution is try and work remaining workers harder to make up the balance. And if those workers up and leave because of overwork the company shuts down

Assuming automation will happen because you put business under stress is weird. Automation normally takes more time to set up the first time around and gives benefits later. They won't be able to do this if they are under pressure. They are more likely to shut down.