Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)

looksee

But there is another path Italy may choose: intensifying bilateral relations with the United States, becoming the nexus of commerce in the Mediterranean, increasing its presence in the Balkans and Eastern Europe, and reclaiming its role as a center of Christianity and Catholicism in the world. Making Italy great again is more than a dream—it is an attainable possibility.

From the article above. Nooooo, no agenda, at all at all. Admittedly I read it fairly fast, but I could not see where Russia come into it?

LeinsterDub

RobMc59 wrote: »

The way Italy has been abandoned by the EU doesn't bode well for the EU in the future.Its a good job Russia has stepped into the breach to help them.
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-eus-betrayal-of-italy-may-be-its-undoing/

Germany is taking Italian patients, a war chest has been created, EU is ordering supplies on a regional level. Italy has to ask for help as you well know the EU can't force it upon them.

You really need to consider the agenda of people pushing these articles.

CelticRambler

RobMc59 wrote: »

The way Italy has been abandoned by the EU doesn't bode well for the EU in the future.Its a good job Russia has stepped into the breach to help them.

By the same token, the state of New York has been abandoned by the US, which doesn't bode well for the US in the future. It's a good job China has stepped into the breach to help ... :rolleyes:

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/just-how-dependent-is-america-on-foreign-medical-supplies/

(Actually, it's Ireland who really help the Americans, being their N°1 supplier of medical appliances)

LeinsterDub

CrabRevolution wrote: »

A relative showed me the Daily Mail comments beneath the story of Michel Barnier testing positive, and they were logical, compassionate, and wholesome exactly what you'd expect; wishing him the worst and claiming it was divine retribution for his Brexit actions.

I'd like to see how the DM commenters spin Boris' illness.

Well this is how it's 'journalist' are spinning it.

https://twitter.com/newschambers/status/1244040419853434880?s=20

ancapailldorcha

RobMc59 wrote: »

The way Italy has been abandoned by the EU doesn't bode well for the EU in the future.Its a good job Russia has stepped into the breach to help them.
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-eus-betrayal-of-italy-may-be-its-undoing/

A snarky opinion piece from a website called "The American Conservative" isn't really evidence of Italy being abandoned. The EU have relaxed rules on Schengen and state-aid. The member states have erected borders.

As usual, the Brexiters are moaning that the EU is both too powerful and too weak.

RobMc59

looksee wrote: »

From the article above. Nooooo, no agenda, at all at all. Admittedly I read it fairly fast, but I could not see where Russia come into it?

Apologies,there is no mention of Russia in the article but it's common knowledge here in the UK they are helping Italy unless it's being suppressed in EU countries?

ancapailldorcha

RobMc59 wrote: »

Apologies,there is no mention of Russia in the article but it's common knowledge here in the UK they are helping Italy unless it's being suppressed in EU countries?

Suppressed? Please, Rob. Don't be so silly.

By the way, Germany has been taking in Italian Covid-19 patients but somehow the Eurosceptics have been tight-lipped on that score.

Gerry T

Maybe the uk is suppressing the help the eu is doing such as the fund. In fact the uk could have availed of this money being a EU "member" but johnson turned it down, really weird dont you think.
What's the talk in the uk of johnson getting cv19 and going around shaking everyone's hands infecting them ?

Because over here they think hes a muppet.

Seth Brundle

RobMc59 wrote: »

Apologies,there is no mention of Russia in the article but it's common knowledge here in the UK they are helping Italy unless it's being suppressed in EU countries?

There's a plane load of supplies about to land in Dublin because the Chinese are helping us. What's your point?

LeinsterDub

RobMc59 wrote: »

Apologies,there is no mention of Russia in the article but it's common knowledge here in the UK they are helping Italy unless it's being suppressed in EU countries?

So what if Russia are helping them? So are the EU and China and Cuba

Professor Moriarty

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Well this is how it's 'journalist' are spinning it.

https://twitter.com/newschambers/status/1244040419853434880?s=20

This is why I want Britain to leave asap.

Seth Brundle

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

This is why I want Britain to leave asap.

They have left.

Professor Moriarty

Seth Brundle wrote: »

They have left.

Technically yes. But I want them gone in reality. Deal done. Good luck and goodbye.

declanflynn

RobMc59 wrote: »

The way Italy has been abandoned by the EU doesn't bode well for the EU in the future.Its a good job Russia has stepped into the breach to help them.
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-eus-betrayal-of-italy-may-be-its-undoing/

what do you think will happen to the EU

ancapailldorcha

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Technically yes. But I want them gone in reality. Deal done. Good luck and goodbye.

Well, their ability to frustrate or impact the EU's agenda has been reduced to whatever weight the EU affords it and nothing more. It has no voting rights whatsoever and the veto is gone. It is a rule taker, a "vassal state" as Jacob Rees-Mogg might say. It crashing out benefits nobody and it's baffling that the extension has not been requested yet.

Professor Moriarty

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Well, their ability to frustrate or impact the EU's agenda has been reduced to whatever weight the EU affords it and nothing more. It has no voting rights whatsoever and the veto is gone. It is a rule taker, a "vassal state" as Jacob Rees-Mogg might say. It crashing out benefits nobody and it's baffling that the extension has not been requested yet.

Covid-19 is a 'welcome' cover for the fact that they would have had to either crash out or bend the knee. Plus the EU is in retreat as individual countries batten down the hatches. Governments have no interest in meetings to discuss the EU's Brexit strategy at the moment.

declanflynn

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Technically yes. But I want them gone in reality. Deal done. Good luck and goodbye.

I think we will never be rid of them, the 2 big trade deals they were going to negotiate with China and the USA are going to be interesting post covid 19

RobMc59

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

A snarky opinion piece from a website called "The American Conservative" isn't really evidence of Italy being abandoned. The EU have relaxed rules on Schengen and state-aid. The member states have erected borders.

As usual, the Brexiters are moaning that the EU is both too powerful and too weak.

Up to now I`ve been very pro EU but this has been an eye opener.The first real crisis and EU unity collapses.The UK,along with the EU and US will struggle to recover financially from the fallout of this virus,in addition though, the perception worldwide is that when the going gets tough EU unity evaporates.
How can anyone in the EU standby whilst Russia helps an Italy begging for help?

CrabRevolution

RobMc59 wrote: »

Up to now I`ve been very pro EU but this has been an eye opener.The first real crisis and EU unity collapses.The UK,along with the EU and US will struggle to recover financially from the fallout of this virus,in addition though, the perception worldwide is that when the going gets tough EU unity evaporates.
How can anyone in the EU standby whilst Russia helps an Italy begging for help?

What should the EU have done? Bearing in mind there is no central EU health service, no central EU depository of equipment etc. and if there was it'd be criticised as being an excess of EU power...

RobMc59

declanflynn wrote: »

what do you think will happen to the EU

I think they will regroup but have been damaged long term unless they are more proactive helping Italy(Spain appear to be faring better despite massive death tolls)Italy won`t forget how they have been abandoned in terms of help on the ground and financially by the EU.

Enzokk

RobMc59 wrote: »

Up to now I`ve been very pro EU but this has been an eye opener.The first real crisis and EU unity collapses.The UK,along with the EU and US will struggle to recover financially from the fallout of this virus,in addition though, the perception worldwide is that when the going gets tough EU unity evaporates.
How can anyone in the EU standby whilst Russia helps an Italy begging for help?

Do you have sources where Italy has, "begged for help" from the EU? The articles I see is about financial help, but I am eager to see the articles where Russia is helping out because the EU has abandoned Italy.

Italy asks for help from EU crisis fund as death toll spikes

Conte said the EU should make use of a 500 billion euro ($539 billion) fund, created at the height of the last decade’s sovereign debt crisis to bail out nations, to finance countries struggling to cope with the pandemic.

The EU can't agree on how to help Italy and Spain pay for coronavirus relief

Deep divisions within the European Union are hampering efforts to tackle the economic fallout of the coronavirus pandemic.

The European Union made two attempts this week at agreeing to a coordinated strategy to support member states most affected by the outbreak, such as Italy and Spain. Finance ministers from countries that use the euro currency met on Tuesday, followed by all 27 EU leaders on Thursday. Both failed.

The discussions seems to be the same as during the financial crises, you have 27 other countries each with their own opinion on how to fix the mess while dealing with the crises as well in their own backyards. At least the EU doesn't have to suffer the arrogance of the UK trying to have a say in the euro when they aren't in the euro as they did during the GFC. The sniping will just have to be done from the side from now on.

Edit: The priority is to now safe lives, not to worry about who will be paying for countries own failings when it came to trying to stop the virus.

BKtje

If anything this shows just how little power the EU has to help fight this kind of situation. It has no army to send in, no centralised supplies and no power to tell countries to close borders, cancel flights etc.

Seems to me that the power is still with individual states. Now members could possible be doing more to help each other but all are pretty much in the same boat so no possibility to send doctors, nurses or other. I hope that once a country gets to grips with the pandemic that it sends aid and people to the countries which were most impacted. The real solidarity (or not) will be seen when things are over to help rebuild.

The only thing that the EU itself can do is loosen the Euro purse strings which it has done.

RobMc59

CrabRevolution wrote: »

What should the EU have done? Bearing in mind there is no central EU health service, no central EU depository of equipment etc. and if there was it'd be criticised as being an excess of EU power...

I think Russia(Russia of all countries!)are showing the EU the decent thing to do.

Runaways

RobMc59 wrote: »

Up to now I`ve been very pro EU but this has been an eye opener.The first real crisis and EU unity collapses.The UK,along with the EU and US will struggle to recover financially from the fallout of this virus,in addition though, the perception worldwide is that when the going gets tough EU unity evaporates.
How can anyone in the EU standby whilst Russia helps an Italy begging for help?

This clashes wildly against brexiters insistence that the EU was a superstate that controlled all laws and actions of it member states and they had no autonomy to act in their own countries interests.


It’s almost like they were talking absolute nonsense isn’t it the old brexiter crowd.

BKtje

BKtje wrote: »

The only thing that the EU itself can do is loosen the Euro purse strings which it has done.

This quote comes to mind,

"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws" — Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild

The ECB has far more power than anyone cares to think, if they wanted they could buy all the required PPE, medical devices & pay the staff.

They after all have the power to create and destroy money.

BKtje

PPE equipment costs pittance really. No one is lacking money to buy the stuff but sourcing it is a little more tricky.

ancapailldorcha

RobMc59 wrote: »

Up to now I`ve been very pro EU but this has been an eye opener.The first real crisis and EU unity collapses.The UK,along with the EU and US will struggle to recover financially from the fallout of this virus,in addition though, the perception worldwide is that when the going gets tough EU unity evaporates.
How can anyone in the EU standby whilst Russia helps an Italy begging for help?

It's ridiculous to expect 27 countries to act in unison immediately in the event of a crisis. The only way this would happen is if all 27 ceded any and all meaningful sovereignty to the EU and then you'd be complaining about it being too powerful.

CelticRambler

RobMc59 wrote: »

I think Russia(Russia of all countries!)are showing the EU the decent thing to do.

Do you mean using the epidemic as an opportunity to spread more disinformation around Europe and the US?

Because other than that, I haven't seen the Russians do anything of real usefulness to any other country. China is way ahead of them in offering genuine, practical aid.

Can you give us a list of Russian humanitarian actions in this context from the last month?

The EU has, in the meantime, organised bulk-purchase orders of medicines, machines and materials (insofar as these are available) for all its member states and those almost-members who feel its in their public's interest to join the group.

RobMc59

Enzokk wrote: »

Do you have sources where Italy has, "begged for help" from the EU? The articles I see is about financial help, but I am eager to see the articles where Russia is helping out because the EU has abandoned Italy.

Italy asks for help from EU crisis fund as death toll spikes



The EU can't agree on how to help Italy and Spain pay for coronavirus relief



The discussions seems to be the same as during the financial crises, you have 27 other countries each with their own opinion on how to fix the mess while dealing with the crises as well in their own backyards. At least the EU doesn't have to suffer the arrogance of the UK trying to have a say in the euro when they aren't in the euro as they did during the GFC. The sniping will just have to be done from the side from now on.

Edit: The priority is to now safe lives, not to worry about who will be paying for countries own failings when it came to trying to stop the virus.

The strength of the EU has always been it`s unity.This has been most evident in the face of the UK`s attempted and unsuccessful tactics to divide and conquer the EU nations and it standing up to trump when he started threatening tariffs etc.Here are a couple of links about Italy struggling.
https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-aims-better-control-coronavirus-responses/

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/03/14/coronavirus-eu-abandoning-italy-china-aid/

CrabRevolution

RobMc59 wrote: »

I think Russia(Russia of all countries!)are showing the EU the decent thing to do.

Russia have sent some disinfection vehicles, and military doctors.

The EU have no disinfection vehicles, and no military doctors. How do you propose they send their non existent disinfection vehicles, and military doctors?