Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)

RobMc59

CelticRambler wrote: »

Do you mean using the epidemic as an opportunity to spread more disinformation around Europe and the US?

Because other than that, I haven't seen the Russians do anything of real usefulness to any other country. China is way ahead of them in offering genuine, practical aid.

Can you give us a list of Russian humanitarian actions in this context from the last month?

The EU has, in the meantime, organised bulk-purchase orders of medicines, machines and materials (insofar as these are available) for all its member states and those almost-members who feel its in their public's interest to join the group.

I mentioned Russia helping Italy whilst the EU fiddles-I did`nt attempt to say Russia was some `Mother Theresa`helping the world.Why can`t you accept EU lack of help to one of it`s member nations has been terrible?

looksee

Other than your 'everybody knows' comment you have shown no evidence of Russia's help. Saying something a dozen times does not make it true.

ancapailldorcha

RobMc59 wrote: »

I mentioned Russia helping Italy whilst the EU fiddles-I did`nt attempt to say Russia was some `Mother Theresa`helping the world.Why can`t you accept EU lack of help to one of it`s member nations has been terrible?

You haven't provided any evidence, that's why.

pixelburp

If we're just going to speculate wildly about the continued day-after-tomorrow death of the EU - any day now! - then equally there's an arguably more viable theory that the EU unifies even MORE after this. For all all the legislative coherence the EU brings, the absence of a pan EU army, health service, or any kind of institution to deal with existential issues has been lade bare; leaving countries to tackle the crisis on their own. IMO you could see the more Europhilic governments and representatives making the argument that now's the time to federalise further.

RobMc59

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

You haven't provided any evidence, that's why.

Ok,take it that I'm making it all up despite posts numerous links

Christy42

RobMc59 wrote: »

Ok,take it that I'm making it all up despite posts numerous links

I have seen one link. Which doesn't mention Russia

RobMc59

Christy42 wrote: »

I have seen one link. Which doesn't mention Russia

Here's one I saw a couple of days ago.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-russia-eu/russian-aid-to-italy-leaves-eu-exposed-idUSKBN21D28K

declanflynn

RobMc59 wrote: »

I think they will regroup but have been damaged long term unless they are more proactive helping Italy(Spain appear to be faring better despite massive death tolls)Italy won`t forget how they have been abandoned in terms of help on the ground and financially by the EU.

what do you think will happen the uk

ancapailldorcha

RobMc59 wrote: »

Ok,take it that I'm making it all up despite posts numerous links

The first was an opinion piece, the next two were about Italy being in a bind which is something I doubt anyone here would need proof for. I'm referring to your claim that Russia is helping Italy while the EU is refusing to.

RobMc59

declanflynn wrote: »

what do you think will happen the uk

The UK will be worse off than the EU and will probably be forced to ask for an extension which is the sensible and practical thing to do.This could possibly turn out to be indefinite as a weakened UK may never fully recover from this on top of brexit.

timetogo1

RobMc59 wrote: »

The UK will be worse off than the EU and will probably be forced to ask for an extension which is the sensible and practical thing to do.This could possibly turn out to be indefinite as a weakened UK may never fully recover from this on top of brexit.

It won't be indefinite. The UK can ask for one extension during the transition period and they can ask for one or two years.

johnnyskeleton

RobMc59 wrote: »

I mentioned Russia helping Italy whilst the EU fiddles-I did`nt attempt to say Russia was some `Mother Theresa`helping the world.Why can`t you accept EU lack of help to one of it`s member nations has been terrible?

And in the very next post the accuracy of that statement was refuted. Rather than engage with that, you have repeated this Brexiteer mantra that the EU is doing nothing while Russia helps, despite:

1. It being pointed out, and indisputable, that the EU has no competency in Member State's health services;
2. Individual Member States are helping each other
3. Apparently 80% of the Russian aid is useless.
4. The issue of financial assistance is completely separate to medical supplies and will be dealt with in due course, the EU will agree on the financial package once the worst of the humanitarian crisis has been dealt with.

Added to that the fact that Brexit means that the UK is not part of the EMA, which could be a problem for supplies of medicines later on, of all European Countries, the UK has probably handled this the worst (ok, Italy was bad, but to be fair to them, it hit them first whereas other countries have had some warning), etc. All these points have been made and you aren't engaging with them.

So, just a gentle reminder of the charter and a short entreaty to engage in serious political discussion rather than sloganeering, in these difficult times.

CelticRambler

RobMc59 wrote: »

I mentioned Russia helping Italy whilst the EU fiddles-I did`nt attempt to say Russia was some `Mother Theresa`helping the world.Why can`t you accept EU lack of help to one of it`s member nations has been terrible?

Maybe because it hasn't? I'm working in an area where everyone is helping everyone else, regardless of who belongs to what geo-political bloc. The Russians are minor players in the scheme of things. If we need something in a hurry, we'll get it through well-targeted EU collaborative procurement a lot faster than asking the Russians to send anything they happen to have to hand and don't need right now.

But let's look at this another way: what help did Italy ask for? Back in February, the EU was repatriating Italians stranded in China after the Wuhan lockdown, using French and German resources. Back in February, the EU was warning that the Chinese outbreak could/would have an effect on the availability of medicines should the epidemic reach Europe. Back in February, there were more reported cases in France and Germany than there were in Italy. Back in February, Italy was a lot more bothered by the the arrival of migrants on its southern shores than a few sick skiers in the Alpine resorts.

How exactly did the EU fail them then, or Russia help? One photo-op with our friendly neighbourhood Russians doesn't spell the downfall of the EU, no more than a missed opportunity to join the European medical supplies coop spells the downfall of the UK.

RobMc59

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The first was an opinion piece, the next two were about Italy being in a bind which is something I doubt anyone here would need proof for. I'm referring to your claim that Russia is helping Italy while the EU is refusing to.

I had thought the practice of 'burying one's head in the sand 'was the exclusive pastime of brexiteers-apparently not, listening to you and one or two of the other stalwarts of this thread.
The fact a third party nation is helping Italy speaks volumes-I'd wager the EU will move quickly after this to ensure it never happens again,it remains to be seen how all this will influence Italy's attitude to the EU though.

ancapailldorcha

RobMc59 wrote: »

I had thought the practice of 'burying one's head in the sand 'was the exclusive pastime of brexiteers-apparently not, listening to you and one or two of the other stalwarts of this thread.
The fact a third party nation is helping Italy speaks volumes-I'd wager the EU will move quickly after this to ensure it never happens again,it remains to be seen how all this will influence Italy's attitude to the EU though.

Rob, repeating the claim doesn't make it any more true. You have yet to offer any detail on what Russia has actually done and that the EU hasn't helped at all. The latter claim is false as the EU, over a week ago the EU approved €50 million for Italy.

kowloon

RobMc59 wrote: »

Apologies,there is no mention of Russia in the article but it's common knowledge here in the UK they are helping Italy unless it's being suppressed in EU countries?

It's not.

LeinsterDub

RobMc59 wrote: »

I think Russia(Russia of all countries!)are showing the EU the decent thing to do.

Be specific. What is it that Russia done that you agree with?

CelticRambler

RobMc59 wrote: »

whilst the EU fiddles ... EU lack of help to one of it`s member nations

How does this fit with the narrative of fiddling and lack of help? Note the date:

February 25, 2020
A joint mission of the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control (ECDC), experts from DG SANTE, and the World Health Organisation (WHO) is currently underway in Italy. The team of experts is focusing on the COVID-19 transmission in the affected areas in Italy, on clinical management, surveillance, infection control and risk communication.

LeinsterDub

RobMc59 wrote: »

I had thought the practice of 'burying one's head in the sand 'was the exclusive pastime of brexiteers-apparently not, listening to you and one or two of the other stalwarts of this thread.
The fact a third party nation is helping Italy speaks volumes-I'd wager the EU will move quickly after this to ensure it never happens again,it remains to be seen how all this will influence Italy's attitude to the EU though.

So you want to ban third nations from helping Italy? Perhaps they should tell those Cuban doctors to go home?

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

This quote comes to mind,



The ECB has far more power than anyone cares to think, if they wanted they could buy all the required PPE, medical devices & pay the staff.

They after all have the power to create and destroy money.

BKtje wrote: »

PPE equipment costs pittance really. No one is lacking money to buy the stuff but sourcing it is a little more tricky.

That is correct, but the ECB's response to the economic disaster is another issue altogether. It is true the same can be said for the other central banks as well, all they see in an opportunity to get even wealthier, as opposed to pitching in to help!

dogbert27

Italy says 80% of Russian aid was useless

https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-italy-russia-military-convoy-supplies-useless-pr-stunt-2020-3?r=US&IR=T

Elsewhere German military are taking sick Italians to German hospitals to relieve the pressure on the Italian system

johnnyskeleton

Deleted User wrote: »

That is correct, but the ECB's response to the economic disaster is another issue altogether. It is true the same can be said for the other central banks as well, all they see in an opportunity to get even wealthier, as opposed to pitching in to help!

The concern of central banks is not to create an opporunity to get wealthier rather than help, the concern, certainly of the ECB, is to make sure that we don't create hyperinflation and destroy the entire economy. Awful to think of money at a time like this, but a worldwide depression along the lines of the early 1930s could lead to a much greater humanitarian disaster!

RobMc59

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

And in the very next post the accuracy of that statement was refuted. Rather than engage with that, you have repeated this Brexiteer mantra that the EU is doing nothing while Russia helps, despite:

1. It being pointed out, and indisputable, that the EU has no competency in Member State's health services;
2. Individual Member States are helping each other
3. Apparently 80% of the Russian aid is useless.
4. The issue of financial assistance is completely separate to medical supplies and will be dealt with in due course, the EU will agree on the financial package once the worst of the humanitarian crisis has been dealt with.

Added to that the fact that Brexit means that the UK is not part of the EMA, which could be a problem for supplies of medicines later on, of all European Countries, the UK has probably handled this the worst (ok, Italy was bad, but to be fair to them, it hit them first whereas other countries have had some warning), etc. All these points have been made and you aren't engaging with them.

So, just a gentle reminder of the charter and a short entreaty to engage in serious political discussion rather than sloganeering, in these difficult times.

Johnny, I'm gobsmacked you would invoke the charter because I've had the temerity to raise a point that doesn't sit well with some posters.
I have always wanted to remain in the EU and fully agree the UK's decision and subsequent behaviour over it has been awful but veiled threats for pointing out Italy has been treated poorly by the rest of the EU is taking things to a new level.

RobMc59

LeinsterDub wrote: »

So you want to ban third nations from helping Italy? Perhaps they should tell those Cuban doctors to go home?

On the contrary,if the EU won't help Italy its better that someone does.

RobMc59

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Rob, repeating the claim doesn't make it any more true. You have yet to offer any detail on what Russia has actually done and that the EU hasn't helped at all. The latter claim is false as the EU, over a week ago the EU approved €50 million for Italy.

Is this more false news?
https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/news/world/spain-and-italy-demand-eu-help-over-coronavirus/

dogbert27

RobMc59 wrote: »

On the contrary,if the EU won't help Italy its better that someone does.

https://metro.co.uk/2020/03/28/military-flies-italian-french-patients-germany-treatment-12471328/

Aren't Germany part of the EU? :rolleyes:

CelticRambler

RobMc59 wrote: »

Is this more false news?
https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/news/world/spain-and-italy-demand-eu-help-over-coronavirus/

What does this

US President Donald Trump backtracked on a threat to quarantine New York and neighbouring states amid criticism and questions about the legality of such a move.

or this

Vietnam cut back domestic airline flights and closed restaurants and other businesses for two weeks. Vietnam has already quarantined nearly 60,000 people who entered from virus-infected nations.

have to do with the EU?

C'mon Rob - you know better than to argue a point based on a newspaper headline.

ancapailldorcha

RobMc59 wrote: »

Is this more false news?
https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/news/world/spain-and-italy-demand-eu-help-over-coronavirus/

Please say what's actually in the link and how it supports your argument instead of just dumping it here.

RobMc59

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Please say what's actually in the link and how it supports your argument instead of just dumping it here.

Apologies,this supports my claim that Italy is in dire need of help from the EU and isn't currently receiving it.

johnnyskeleton

RobMc59 wrote: »

Johnny, I'm gobsmacked you would invoke the charter because I've had the temerity to raise a point that doesn't sit well with some posters.
I have always wanted to remain in the EU and fully agree the UK's decision and subsequent behaviour over it has been awful but veiled threats for pointing out Italy has been treated poorly by the rest of the EU is taking things to a new level.

There is absolutely no problem with you raising the point. You weren't called up on it at the time. The problem comes from the fact that you maintain your position, nothwithstanding that other posters are putting the counter argument to you, such counter argument being based on facts rather than feelings, and crucially, you have made no attempt to engage with the other posters.

And to be clear, simply providing a link is no good if it doesn't support what you are saying.

RobMc59 wrote: »

Is this more false news?
https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/news/world/spain-and-italy-demand-eu-help-over-coronavirus/

The headline, coming as it does from the "Evening Express", states that they are demanding help from the E.U., the implication being that it is not forthcoming and that is a source of tension between those two States and the EU. But, as is often the case with the UK gutter press, the content of the article is very different:

Europe must demonstrate that it is able to respond to this historic call,’’ Italian prime minister Giuseppe Conte said.

The crisis “involves all of the economic and social systems of the member states”, he said.

“I will fight until the last drop of sweat, until the last gram of energy, to obtain a strong, vigorous, cohesive European response.”

Spanish prime minister Pedro Sanchez called for a more vigorous response from the EU.

“It is the most difficult moment for the EU since its foundation and it has to be ready to rise to the challenge,” Mr Sanchez said.

Spain, Italy, France and six other EU members have asked the union to share the burden of European debt, dubbed coronabonds in the media, to help fight the virus.

So, two E.U. leaders call for European cohesion and for increasing debt sharing, in an optimistic rallying call that makes it clear that they believe in the E.U. system. This is translated into a headline that they are "demanding" help from the E.U.

This in no way supports your argument that Italy is in need of aid but isn't receiving it. It supports the contention that Italy and Spain want more, and are arguing for debt relief, but that's very different to the type of aid that you were talking about, being the immediate medical (and, coincidentally mostly useless) supplies that Russia provided.

So, lest there be any misunderstanding, you are free to make whatever argument you want, provided you can support it and are prepared to justify it. Repeating the same mantra and providing lazy references won't cut it as serious political discussion I'm afraid.

As I said above, this is just a polite reminder, because I'm sure you will be happy to engage with all of these points rather than simply ignoring them, from now on.