Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)

ancapailldorcha

RobMc59 wrote: »

Apologies,this supports my claim that Italy is in dire need of help from the EU and isn't currently receiving it.

Are you reading these before you post them?

I had a look on my phone and, when I banished the various survey requests, it just seems to be a general piece about Covid-19 and current rates across the world and states that Spain and Italy have asked for help. It doesn't say that they've been denied it or that the EU has done nothing.

dogbert27

EU response to support countries in the current times:

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20200325IPR75811/covid-19-parliament-approves-crucial-eu-support-measures

The urgent measures to help people and businesses tackle the crisis were voted on in plenary less than two weeks after the Commission tabled its proposals.


The approved proposals are:

The Corona Response Investment Initiative. These measures are meant to channel €37 billion from available EU funds as soon as possible to citizens, regions and countries hit the hardest by the Coronavirus pandemic. The funds will be directed towards healthcare systems, SMEs, labour markets and other vulnerable parts of EU member states’ economies. The proposal was adopted with 683 votes in favour, 1 against and 4 abstentions.

johnnyskeleton

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

The concern of central banks is not to create an opporunity to get wealthier rather than help, the concern, certainly of the ECB, is to make sure that we don't create hyperinflation and destroy the entire economy. Awful to think of money at a time like this, but a worldwide depression along the lines of the early 1930s could lead to a much greater humanitarian disaster!

Strategic lubrication of the economy will not cause hyperinflation, it will prevent many areas of the economy from seizing up and possible civil unrest if significant numbers of the population cannot afford food.

But the banks will not do that, as they need to be seen as being in control.

johnnyskeleton

Deleted User wrote: »

Strategic lubrication of the economy will not cause hyperinflation, it will prevent many areas of the economy from seizing up and possible civil unrest if significant numbers of the population cannot afford food.

Hopefully not, anyway. We are at unprecedented low interest rates for the last few years, and there is seemingly no end in sight for those rates. It seems to me that the last rounds of QE didn't impact the consumer economy so much as it caused a huge surge in equities and housing. I'm not sure that can be done again, as they were already disproportionately overblown before this. I also don't believe that we can just keep borrowing indefinitely without it all eventually falling apart.

But to paraphrase a possible misattribution to Keynes, the economy can stay irrational for longer than I can stay without paying the rent.

RobMc59

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

There is absolutely no problem with you raising the point. You weren't called up on it at the time. The problem comes from the fact that you maintain your position, nothwithstanding that other posters are putting the counter argument to you, such counter argument being based on facts rather than feelings, and crucially, you have made no attempt to engage with the other posters.

And to be clear, simply providing a link is no good if it doesn't support what you are saying.



The headline, coming as it does from the "Evening Express", states that they are demanding help from the E.U., the implication being that it is not forthcoming and that is a source of tension between those two States and the EU. But, as is often the case with the UK gutter press, the content of the article is very different:




So, two E.U. leaders call for European cohesion and for increasing debt sharing, in an optimistic rallying call that makes it clear that they believe in the E.U. system. This is translated into a headline that they are "demanding" help from the E.U.

This in no way supports your argument that Italy is in need of aid but isn't receiving it. It supports the contention that Italy and Spain want more, and are arguing for debt relief, but that's very different to the type of aid that you were talking about, being the immediate medical (and, coincidentally mostly useless) supplies that Russia provided.

So, lest there be any misunderstanding, you are free to make whatever argument you want, provided you can support it and are prepared to justify it. Repeating the same mantra and providing lazy references won't cut it as serious political discussion I'm afraid.

As I said above, this is just a polite reminder, because I'm sure you will be happy to engage with all of these points rather than simply ignoring them, from now on.

Can you provide a link showing the Evening Express to be `UK gutter press`?

ancapailldorcha

RobMc59 wrote: »

Can you provide a link showing the Evening Express to be `UK gutter press`?

That's clearly a personal opinion. However, I did find the following from the Human Truth Foundation:



http://www.humantruth.info/uk_newspapers_comparison.html

Also, the UK has the least trusted press in Europe so statistically, any UK publication is more likely to be of lower quality than one from outside the UK on that basis.



https://www.pressgazette.co.uk/survey-finds-that-uk-written-press-is-by-some-way-the-least-trusted-in-europe/

RobMc59

I don`t want to get into an argument with two moderators but it`s painfully obvious that neither of you looked at the link I provided properly as you both failed to notice it`s not the regular`Express` (which is gutter press)but a Scottish newspaper.

ancapailldorcha

RobMc59 wrote: »

I don`t want to get into an argument with two moderators but it`s painfully obvious that neither of you looked at the link I provided properly as you both failed to notice it`s not the regular`Express` (which is gutter press)but a Scottish newspaper.

I did look at the link. Spain and Italy asking for more help suggests that the EU is already helping them. It does not substantiate your claim in any way.

Ben Done

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

What the last few pages show is just how good Russia is at propaganda and PR, while EU, ECB and Member States are busy physically doing stuff to help, example ECBs bazooka policy of late.

Anyone else find it disturbing and amusing that the hardcore brexiters have same talking points as hardcore Trumpians and the very obvious Putin bots? It's like some perverse oligarchic axis of evil with a very polished propaganda machine.

Let's not forget that it was only a week or so ago that UK was pursuing a policy designed to kill tens of thousands of its citizens, funny how whole herd immunity thing went out window now that Boris himself got it. Here is a prediction in a couple of weeks we will have Cummings (who spent years in Russia doing what exactly?) and Boris telling us that the virus it not too bad as sure look he got over it quickly.

Did you see Cummings hot-footing it (literally running) out of Downing Street the day Johnson tested positive?

BKtje

Deleted User wrote: »

That is correct, but the ECB's response to the economic disaster is another issue altogether. It is true the same can be said for the other central banks as well, all they see in an opportunity to get even wealthier, as opposed to pitching in to help!

I'm not sure how central Banks can get wealthier (in the sense that private citizen can) since they are entities used to serve the public (or the banks if you are a little skeptic). In order for banks to make money however people need to be paying them interest and inflation and QE will make peoples debts less (relatively) and interest rates are practically 0. In the future loans may be made with large interest rates to rebuild but that is not what is currently happening.

RobMc59 wrote: »

On the contrary,if the EU won't help Italy its better that someone does.

I would like to know what you suggest the EU does to help? I'm very much open to the idea that more could be done but I just don't see what, since all EU countries are fighting their corner and don't have what is needed to spare in large quantities. I look forward to seeing what happens when a few countries get on top of the situation and whether medical professionals and aid will be sent. That said medical professionals are not owned by the various states neither so may not want to go back into the fire again.

RobMc59 wrote: »

Apologies,this supports my claim that Italy is in dire need of help from the EU and isn't currently receiving it.

The ECB and fellow EU countries will be of most use after the pandemic has been "beaten", it is then that we will see true EU solidarity or whether it is all hot air.
All the above is my uneducated opinion of course.

J Mysterio

SNIP. Don't dump tweets please.

johnnyskeleton

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Hopefully not, anyway. We are at unprecedented low interest rates for the last few years, and there is seemingly no end in sight for those rates. It seems to me that the last rounds of QE didn't impact the consumer economy so much as it caused a huge surge in equities and housing. I'm not sure that can be done again, as they were already disproportionately overblown before this. I also don't believe that we can just keep borrowing indefinitely without it all eventually falling apart.

But to paraphrase a possible misattribution to Keynes, the economy can stay irrational for longer than I can stay without paying the rent.

Yeah, pumping in liquidity at the top does not help 99% of the population!
If the economy is an engine, you put the oil in the sump, not in the exhaust!

johnnyskeleton

RobMc59 wrote: »

Can you provide a link showing the Evening Express to be `UK gutter press`?

So you're not going to engage with any of the points actually made, instead seeking to demand evidence while providing none?

Just, FYI, the Evening Express is described as a Tabloid in its Wikipedia entry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evening_Express_(Scotland)

It would be reasonable to assume that if they objected to this categorisation, they would have taken that up with Wikipedia!

So how about providing some support for your claims then. They are, after all, YOUR claims, and you don't seem to dispute that the headline does not match the contents of the article.

johnnyskeleton

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah, pumping in liquidity at the top does not help 99% of the population!
If the economy is an engine, you put the oil in the sump, not in the exhaust!

I suppose to continue the analogy though, you don't want to put too much oil in though or it could choke out the engine.

I mean it seems inevitable that there will be some stimulus, and I think we both hope that it can help the consumer economy rather than banks' and funds' profit margins, the only difference between us is how big the risk is that it won't work and will cause even greater trouble for the economy.

LeinsterDub

RobMc59 wrote: »

On the contrary,if the EU won't help Italy its better that someone does.

The EU is helping them. Why can't they accept all help offered?

johnnyskeleton

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I suppose to continue the analogy though, you don't want to put too much oil in though or it could choke out the engine.

I mean it seems inevitable that there will be some stimulus, and I think we both hope that it can help the consumer economy rather than banks' and funds' profit margins, the only difference between us is how big the risk is that it won't work and will cause even greater trouble for the economy.

This is where UBI should be considered as the way forward, but that's for another thread.

dogbert27

BKtje wrote: »

I would like to know what you suggest the EU does to help? I'm very much open to the idea that more could be done but I just don't see what, since all EU countries are fighting their corner and don't have what is needed to spare in large quantities.
I look forward to seeing what happens when a few countries get on top of the situation and whether medical professionals and aid will be sent. That said medical professionals are not owned by the various states neither so may not want to go back into the fire again.
.

German military are flying in to France and Italy and taking patients back to Germany where there is capacity to treat them

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8165089/French-military-evacuates-coronavirus-patients-hard-hit-areas-Germany-airlift.html

sandbelter

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The EU have relaxed rules on Schengen and state-aid. The member states have erected borders.

No different from what's happening in Australia where even Australians can't enter either: NT, Queensland, Tasmania, SA or WA and even though its unconstitutional, no one is talk about Australia's disintegration.

looksee

RobMc59 wrote: »

Is this more false news?
https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/news/world/spain-and-italy-demand-eu-help-over-coronavirus/

That article is just a mish-mash of well publicised information points with a few quotes thrown in with no context. It is not so much that it is not well written - the material is just regurgitated phrases and paragraphs that appear in dozens of publications if you google random sentences - but it is cobbled together into a rather inane page filler. It doesn't offer any analysis or political interpretation, its just the usual tabloid 'title with any old waffle because no-one will read it'.

CrabRevolution

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Trump was just threatening quarantine on new York and other states yesterday, I suppose US is falling apart too

It's like how the very fact 27 countries don't all have identical priorities for the EUs budget, months before it is agreed, is a sign that the EU is a failure. Yet there's apparently no issue with the way the US Government has regularly had to shut down entirely over budget disagreements.

RobMc59

looksee wrote: »

That article is just a mish-mash of well publicised information points with a few quotes thrown in with no context. It is not so much that it is not well written - the material is just regurgitated phrases and paragraphs that appear in dozens of publications if you google random sentences - but it is cobbled together into a rather inane page filler. It doesn't offer any analysis or political interpretation, its just the usual tabloid 'title with any old waffle because no-one will read it'.

It appears these 'false news' claims refuse to go away as reported in this article in the Irish independent

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/virus-agony-has-left-italy-feeling-abandoned-by-eu-39083111.html

LeinsterDub

RobMc59 wrote: »

It appears these 'false news' claims refuse to go away as reported in this article in the Irish independent

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/virus-agony-has-left-italy-feeling-abandoned-by-eu-39083111.html

EU's response to crisis while news isn't exactly unsurprising. The EU have helped Italy that's a simple fact of course it's not perfect but we all know that. Sure the Dutch still don't appear to consider these times as a crisis

dogbert27

RobMc59 wrote: »

It appears these 'false news' claims refuse to go away as reported in this article in the Irish independent

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/virus-agony-has-left-italy-feeling-abandoned-by-eu-39083111.html

Seriously, you're beginning to sound like Donald Trump at this stage.

It has been pointed out to you by various posters that:

1. The EU is not a centralized government that has power over the 27 member states therefore it cannot force one member state to help the other or transfer resources between member states.

2. All 27 countries within the EU are going through this and are trying to protect their sovereign country and their people first and foremost to prevent every country becoming as bad as Italy.

3. The EU has pledged at 750 billion aid package starting with the countries that have been affected most, i.e. Italy and Spain

4. The main request that I see that has been rejected right now by the EU members is for debt sharing which, being viewed cynically can be seen as those countries who are more in debt and having previously had debt sharing rejected using the current crisis as an opportunity to throw it back on the table.

5. Germany appear to be the only country in the EU right now that has a grip on their crisis and are now giving aid to others.

6. It was Italians who said that 80% of Russian aid was useless and a PR stunt for Russia so using Russian aid as an argument against the EU response really has no weight in it.

ancapailldorcha

RobMc59 wrote: »

It appears these 'false news' claims refuse to go away as reported in this article in the Irish independent

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/virus-agony-has-left-italy-feeling-abandoned-by-eu-39083111.html

Stop dumping links here please.

CelticRambler

RobMc59 wrote: »

It appears these 'false news' claims refuse to go away as reported in this article in the Irish independent

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/virus-agony-has-left-italy-feeling-abandoned-by-eu-39083111.html

Where in that article does it specify what precise appeals for help Italy made, that were rejected outright by the EU? Just because a gaggle of journalists share the same poorly-researched sensationalist story (exactly as Facebook and Twitter users do) doesn't make it a true reflection of what's actually happening across the whole country.

RobMc59

CelticRambler wrote: »

Where in that article does it specify what precise appeals for help Italy made, that were rejected outright by the EU? Just because a gaggle of journalists share the same poorly-researched sensationalist story (exactly as Facebook and Twitter users do) doesn't make it a true reflection of what's actually happening across the whole country.

Is the Irish Independent part of the `UK gutter press`?-No.

Is the Irish Independent a sensationalist tabloid?-No.

Is the journalist known for `poorly researched sensationalist stories`?-No,he is a highly regarded senior journalist at the Irish Independent.You can check him out yourself though as probably best I don`t provide links.

CelticRambler

RobMc59 wrote: »

Is the Irish Independent a sensationalist tabloid?-No.

Correction: Yes - the Irish Independent is very much a sensationalist tabloid (with a clickbaity website to match). A quick search of this website will show you how many of it's articles are shown to be severely lacking in journalistic integrity.

listermint

RobMc59 wrote: »

[/B]

Is the Irish Independent part of the `UK gutter press`?-No.

Is the Irish Independent a sensationalist tabloid?-No.

Is the journalist known for `poorly researched sensationalist stories`?-No,he is a highly regarded senior journalist at the Irish Independent.You can check him out yourself though as probably best I don`t provide links.

Yes , yes it is. That paper has its own agenda and can be as click baity as the next. They continually inflate the property market as property pages are large part of advertising.

Why do you think they are angels ?

dogbert27

RobMc59 wrote: »

[/B]

Is the Irish Independent part of the `UK gutter press`?-No.

Is the Irish Independent a sensationalist tabloid?-No.

Is the journalist known for `poorly researched sensationalist stories`?-No,he is a highly regarded senior journalist at the Irish Independent.You can check him out yourself though as probably best I don`t provide links.

You are clearly deflecting from the fact that you lost the original debate and are now more interested in discussing the quality of newspaper journalism. :rolleyes:

Seth Brundle

RobMc59 wrote: »

[/B]

Is the Irish Independent part of the `UK gutter press`?-No.

Is the Irish Independent a sensationalist tabloid?-No.

Really? :eek:
Several of their stories are based on items found on Facebook or Twitter for Christ's sake.