Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)

RobMc59

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

It's an accurate assessment of the battle of France, which was a military disaster and resulted in the retreat of the BEF back to Britain and the capitulation of the French to the Germans.

The comment about how Britain and France lost the battle of France by fighting the last war comes, I believe, from Winston Churchill.

Regarding the offense, how is what I said any more offensive than what Brexiteers regularly say about the Germans? Or indeed, the Irish.



Does the war of independence count?

I believe the original post mentioned the American war of independence-thats the only war of independence most British people know about.

Lemming

Deleted User wrote: »

It's a well known fact that in the vast majority of conflicts, the victors either made fewer mistakes or had overwhelming firepower, plus a liberal sprinkling of luck!

It's a well known fact that football is a game of two halves. What's your point?

storker

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You have to be kidding?

How thin is someone skin to think that mistakes were not made during WW2 at all, and that to suggest that mistakes were made is offensive?

You've become a parody of yourself.

Also, the degree to which an argument may or may no be offensive has no bearing on its validity. If a claim is untrue or an argument unsound then the proper response it to demonstrate its untruth or its lack of soundness, not crying "offense!", which should impress no one.

Roanmore

Came in to the thread and had to check the title.

ancapailldorcha

RobMc59 wrote: »

Being British its considered normal to respect your country's efforts in both world wars and having a different opinion to someone who belittles that isn't fake outrage Nody old lad,Its a normal reaction I'd say!-if i criticised something about Ireland I'd expect a few replies disagreeing with me.

Really? When we had baby boomers invoking the blitz so they could make political points about the EU, was that respecting those that survived it and fought in the war?

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

I believe the original post mentioned the American war of independence-thats the only war of independence most British people know about.

It mentioned Ireland 1922. But either way, are you seriously suggesting your defence is "ignorance of the facts" and that offence caused by this ignorance is valid?

I mean, you personally, pride yourself on apparently knowing about Ireland, enough that you'd think that your compatriot's ignorance is not acceptable.

At this stage I'd suggest to you to "dig up".

Lemming

Lemming wrote: »

It's a well known fact that football is a game of two halves. What's your point?

The same as yours, war is unpredictable. But the results have been well documented.

RobMc59

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It mentioned Ireland 1922. But either way, are you seriously suggesting your defence is "ignorance of the facts" and that offence caused by this ignorance is valid?

I mean, you personally, pride yourself on apparently knowing about Ireland, enough that you'd think that your compatriot's ignorance is not acceptable.

At this stage I'd suggest to you to "dig up".

I don't profess to know everything about Ireland but don't know everything about Scotland,Wales or NI history either.
Irish history isn't generally taught in English schools.

RobMc59

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

It's an accurate assessment of the battle of France, which was a military disaster and resulted in the retreat of the BEF back to Britain and the capitulation of the French to the Germans.

The comment about how Britain and France lost the battle of France by fighting the last war comes, I believe, from Winston Churchill.

Regarding the offense, how is what I said any more offensive than what Brexiteers regularly say about the Germans? Or indeed, the Irish.



Does the war of independence count?

Yes it's a major war and I'd never disrespect or belittle the people who fought in it.

Professor Moriarty

RobMc59 wrote: »

I don't profess to know everything about Ireland but don't know everything about Scotland,Wales or NI history either.
Irish history isn't generally taught in English schools.

There's an old saying about Irish/English history:

The English can never remember their history, the Irish can never forget their history.

RobMc59

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

How respectful is it to have an inaccurate view of history and to use that for modern day political reasons, though?

I don't see how recognizing your country's efforts in war is an inaccurate view of history.I have also said you can't win them all,whether that's battles or wars.
If you are referring to the likes of Mark Francois I find him an embarrassment.

correct horse battery staple

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Getting back to Brexit from the historic thread derailment

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/coronavirus-nhs-visa-doctor-nurse-paramedics-home-office-migrants-a9438211.html


Only 1 years worth of gratitude, nice.

If that's their attitude the medics should go straight to their home country to help out.

The UK is basically telling them we need you for this corna crisis but after that we may turf you out on your ear.

Sam Russell

It is worse than that. They have until the end of the year anyway, so they just get a three month extension. As well as that, they are disputing many of their claim for settled status.

As you say, they should pack up now before the crisis gets worse.

listermint

RobMc59 wrote: »

Hindsight is indeed a wonderful thing but your comment about Britain and France making mistakes is offensive to the majority of British people and probably to French people too.
Have you any relatives who fought in any major war?

This is called coat tails.

Your professing to be offended on behalf of people you never knew.

You never fought in a war and you can be dam sure if your relatives did they weren't yelling you of the horrors of it.

Equally those same people would be utterly embarrassed by the actions of he nation they fought for. Similar levels of embarrassment of those that would apologize for attacks on their neighbours who they fought to free.


Bit of introspection required and less white washing and faux outrage.

Capt'n Midnight

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Since brexiters love facts:

Population of Ireland, 4.79 million
Population UK, 67.8 million

Ireland Deaths due to pandemic: 71
UK Deaths due to pandemic: 1808

You are more than twice more likely to die in UK due to this virus. Tory policies already killing people needlessly, and that's with an open border between both countries. And these are people cheerleading for Brexit.


https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-another-367-die-in-england-after-testing-positive-for-covid-19-11966273

We are doing about 5,000 tests a day vs. 7,000 in the UK.


One of the devolved powers in NI is health. And it's looking like there is All-Island joint approach. https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0331/1127452-tanaiste-ni/

It doesn't hurt that we make ventilators. Or that the health systems have shared resources before. Or that we flew in stuff for the NHS.

It's absolutely in all our interests to do this together. But it will be interesting to see how it's viewed compared to how Team-GB's efforts are viewed.

Capt'n Midnight

Still playing the blame the EU game.

https://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/press-releases/pledge-of-support-from-prime-minister-johnson-2422020-5765

The Prime Minister goes on to explain that, despite some inflexible EU regulations, the Secretary of State for International Trade has accelerated the delivery of additional supplies of Personal Protective Equipment to Gibraltar. The letter also notes that Spain has agreed not to hinder the delivery of this equipment.

The UK is still in the EU. Spain, France and Portugal are in NATO.
Gibraltar is only 1,000 miles away. If it was important an RAF C-17 can carry 45 tonnes of cargo over 4,500 nautical miles.

RobMc59

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

We are doing about 5,000 tests a day vs. 7,000 in the UK.


One of the devolved powers in NI is health. And it's looking like there is All-Island joint approach. https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0331/1127452-tanaiste-ni/

It doesn't hurt that we make ventilators. Or that the health systems have shared resources before. Or that we flew in stuff for the NHS.

It's absolutely in all our interests to do this together. But it will be interesting to see how it's viewed compared to how Team-GB's efforts are viewed.

Michael Gove mentioned today the UK has received ventilators from the EU-i wondered if they were from Ireland.

Capt'n Midnight

RobMc59 wrote: »

Michael Gove mentioned today the UK has received ventilators from the EU-i wondered if they were from Ireland.

Don't get me started.

The UK has two big projects each for 10,000 units.

VentilatorChallengeUK is a group of high tech manufacturing companies making a Continuous Positive Airway Pressure CPAP device to reduce the need for ventilators.

It's a wide spectrum of high tech manufacturing and prototyping companies reverse engineering a patent expired approved design to facilitate production.

An achievable goal by very competent people.

And that is exactly how it should be done.



The other project is by Dyson.

If he can make a fully viable product then fair dues.
But if there are issues it could be a major scandal.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Let's leave the History discussion please.

LeinsterDub

RobMc59 wrote: »

The way Italy has been abandoned by the EU doesn't bode well for the EU in the future.Its a good job Russia has stepped into the breach to help them.
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-eus-betrayal-of-italy-may-be-its-undoing/

https://twitter.com/mfa_russia/status/1245237645762052101?s=20

The way New York has been abandoned by the US doesn't bode well for the US. It's a good job Russia has stepped in....

Hermy

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

...virus is running rampant thru Russia (but news is being suppressed as its 100% controlled by Kremlin)...

If news is being suppressed 100% how do you know the virus is running rampant?

Nody

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

It just shows how evil Putin is, virus is running rampant thru Russia (but news is being suppressed as its 100% controlled by Kremlin) and he sends equipment away in order to score political points on world stage rather than help his own people.

It also once again shows how good Russia is at propaganda via internet/media.

In meantime oil price is at lowest levels in 20 years and failing, this is going to destroy already ailing Russia's economy yet again, so expect another war on its borders very very soon.

Not only Russia; Trump wants to step in and protect American oil shale companies because they have to shut down by raising the world price / stocking up and from what I recall all of the Middle East has a need of oil prices in the $70+ range to sustain their budgets. The current prices are not sustainable and is a real trade war in practice with Saudi Arabia trying to punish Russia for refusing to sign up to the OPEC volume agreement to sustain oil prices basically; it's Chinese steel dumping in the oil business in practice.

Leroy42

Hermy wrote: »

If news is being suppressed 100% how do you know the virus is running rampant?

He didn't say it was suppressed 100%, he said it was being suppressed by a 100% controlled Kremlin.

Unless Russians have some sort of immunity from the virus, unknown throughout the rest of the world, the lack of numbers from Russia is deeply questionable.

Does that mean it is not fully under control? Of course not, but I have yet to hear any medical professional state that what Russia is doing should be followed.

Leroy42

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://twitter.com/mfa_russia/status/1245237645762052101?s=20

The way New York has been abandoned by the US doesn't bode well for the US. It's a good job Russia has stepped in....

How the tables have turned. The US used to laugh at the backwards Russia, that they should get on board the capitalism train.

Now the US is relying on Russia to bail it out as it is incapable of doing it itself.

MAGA indeed!

Hermy

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

I guess you are going to tell us that Russians have some mythical immunity to this novel coronavirus?

Nothing of the sort.

I misread your comment and then asked a badly worded question based on that misreading.

A better question would be is there reliable information coming out of Russia and what is it telling us about the state of play there?

Hermy

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Same with this virus, truth died on Russia 20 years back after only a handful of years of normalcy

Pertinent that I've just watched the HBO mini-series Chernobyl.

It's depressing that things appear to be regressing so severely in Russia and elsewhere.

serfboard

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Even in these dark times they cannot help themselves give out projects to their brexiter buddies, let's hope Dyson Ventilators don't endup being vapourware

There is a parody Boris Johnson account on Twitter, which these days is so on the money it's scary.

listermint

This is the type of stuff we can expect now for the next year.

https://mobile.twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1245403758458273792

BonnieSituation

listermint wrote: »

This is the type of stuff we can expect now for the next year.

https://mobile.twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1245403758458273792

Just quoting to embed:

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1245403758458273792

Irish Praetorian

serfboard wrote: »

There is a parody Boris Johnson account on Twitter, which these days is so on the money it's scary.

As a fairly Europhillic person who thinks Brexit is...well a number of impolite things, I would still hazard a guess that maybe the actual story isn't quite as straightforward as that. Just saying we have plenty of real reasons to dislike Brexit and by extension the Tory government attempting to undertake it, no need to create false ones.