Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)

Hermy

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

May have been mentioned already, but the blocking of Corona Bonds by certain EU countries sounds worrying to me. So much for the unity of the EU.

Time will tell.

UK might have been correct after all, we are all on our own now anyway.

The Corona bond is hardly the sum total of the EU.

BonnieSituation

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

May have been mentioned already, but the blocking of Corona Bonds by certain EU countries sounds worrying to me. So much for the unity of the EU.

Time will tell.

UK might have been correct after all, we are all on our own now anyway.

Ah would you stop.

Do you know the details of what a "coronabond" actually is?

Nothing at all of that magnitude and importance is going to be decided over the next few weeks.

We have the ECB for now, so some QE will do initially.

If Covid-19 is what destroys the EU, I can only imagine what damage it will wreak on others like the US, Brazil and the UK.

Spanish Eyes

Calm down everyone I just made a post on something that I think is relevant.

No one responded about the lack of cohesion within the EU, and the fact that certain countries are totally opposed.

Whatever about alternatives, they could have tried to present a united front even for the optics of it.

BonnieSituation

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

May have been mentioned already, but the blocking of Corona Bonds by certain EU countries sounds worrying to me. So much for the unity of the EU.

Time will tell.

UK might have been correct after all, we are all on our own now anyway.

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Calm down everyone I just made a post on something that I think is relevant.

No one responded about the lack of cohesion within the EU, and the fact that certain countries are totally opposed.

Whatever about alternatives, they could have tried to present a united front even for the optics of it.

Relevant? You made a flippant uninformed post that deserved to be called out.

"UK might have been correct after all, we are all on our own now anyway."- Did you expect this to be let go?

LeinsterDub

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Calm down everyone I just made a post on something that I think is relevant.

No one responded about the lack of cohesion within the EU, and the fact that certain countries are totally opposed.

Whatever about alternatives, they could have tried to present a united front even for the optics of it.

A united front take time to formulate. Do you honestly expect the like of Germany and Sweden to put themselves on the hook for legacy Italian and Greek debt overnight? And in terms this crisis is still box fresh

Spanish Eyes

I see there are a few here who think they know everything.

No wonder the thread has slowed down to a snail's pace. But anyway.

There is no way anyone could think that the EU has been cohesive on this at all. It's every country for itself now. Brexiteers must be delighted with another stick to beat the EU now.

And I am not in the least worried about denigrating responses. Fire away and educate poor old dunce me.

BonnieSituation

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I see there are a few here who think they know everything.

No wonder the thread has slowed down to a snail's pace. But anyway.

There is no way anyone could think that the EU has been cohesive on this at all. It's every country for itself now. Brexiteers must be delighted with another stick to beat the EU now.

And I am not in the least worried about denigrating responses. Fire away and educate poor old dunce me.

What?

Brexit has happened and there's been a few other new stories since Jan 31st that have taken over the news cycle, that's why this thread has slowed.

As regards Brexiters' thoughts, they can go and jump, they're irrelevant now.

reslfj

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

May have been mentioned already, but the blocking of Corona Bonds by certain EU countries sounds worrying to me. So much for the unity of the EU.

Time will tell.

UK might have been correct after all, we are all on our own now anyway.

Since the financial crises in late 2008 the Greek, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese and Irish economy has been much supported by the EU/ECB - this includes giving loans with much better interest rates and much longer pay-back time.

Ireland and partly Portugal has since made huge efforts to recover and their economies are now much better - for Ireland very much better.

Greece had keep fraudulent public accounts, allowed widespread tax evasion, corruption, nepotism, far too low pension age, extremely - with employees - 'overcrowded' public businesses, general low productivity, high military costs and general overspending.

Italy has not used the past 10-11 years to reform its labour market and business rules, not solved the Italian North-South economic problems (much like the UK's SE-North problem) but continued overspending.

Spain doing somewhat better than Italy, but but but - not much.

Now Italy and Spain will get help - also financially - but when Italy did hardly attempt to reform in the past 10-11 years of good times, they will have to engage every Italian in repaying the Italian debt.
If the international interest rates rises - and one day they will - the Italian debt level is not sustainable for Italy (they will not be able to pay the interests on the debt).

The EU and even the Eurozone is not paying other members' overspending or the sad results of other members disrespect for needed internal reforms.

Lars


PS! Health service is a National competency not an EU one. (but members are helping each other)

moon2

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

No one responded about the lack of cohesion within the EU, and the fact that certain countries are totally opposed.

Your perceived 'lack of cohesion' is not a noteworthy event, hence the lack of comment on it. If you'd like to expand on your comment with some details about the bonds, and the reasons why some countries are for/against them it would help formulate the basis for discussion. As it stands, there's nothing remarkable or unexpected in the 'cohesion' other than the startlingly unexpected conclusion you drew.

Spanish Eyes

moon2 wrote: »

Your perceived 'lack of cohesion' is not a noteworthy event, hence the lack of comment on it. If you'd like to expand on your comment with some details about the bonds, and the reasons why some countries are for/against them it would help formulate the basis for discussion. As it stands, there's nothing remarkable or unexpected in the 'cohesion' other than the startlingly unexpected conclusion you drew.

Sounds to me that wealthy or Tier One EU members are not prepared to prop up any profligate countries anymore.

That would be acceptable to be fair, if we were not in the throes of a totally devastating time now with the virus.

Spanish Eyes

BonnieSituation wrote: »

What?

Brexit has happened and there's been a few other new stories since Jan 31st that have taken over the news cycle, that's why this thread has slowed.

As regards Brexiters' thoughts, they can go and jump, they're irrelevant now.

Brexit has happened alright to much fanfare, but when will Transition end now I wonder? How are the Trade Deals going etc. and so on.

Oh and when you are explaining (even to a thicko like me) you are losing. Do not patronise please.

BonnieSituation

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Brexit has happened alright to much fanfare, but when will Transition end now I wonder? How are the Trade Deals going etc. and so on.

Oh and when you are explaining (even to a thicko like me) you are losing. Do not patronise please.

Are you really in here asking these questions seriously? Loads of news a few weeks back that the talks were paused because of Covid-19.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-51935677

Was in this thread too.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058025860&page=509

---

Transition is still scheduled to end as it was before. Boris has repeatedly stated that he won't extend.


---

If I'm explaining, I'm clearly informing the uninformed.

Spanish Eyes

Bonnie, I know all this. But you sound as if you have a superiority complex or something.

I realise talks were paused, Barnier had the virus and most of the UK Front Bench are exposed now too. Anyway my point was that going forward, with the virus being rampant now, will the transition period be extended or what?

Good to see I got a lot of you to wake from your somnolent slumber to have a right go at me!

BonnieSituation

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Bonnie, I know all this. But you sound as if you have a superiority complex or something.

I realise talks were paused, Barnier had the virus and most of the UK Front Bench are exposed now too. Anyway my point was that going forward, with the virus being rampant now, will the transition period be extended or what?

Good to see I got a lot of you to wake from your somnolent slumber to have a right go at me!

You asked questions and then they were answered. You then got snotty.

Why ask then if you knew?

Boris repeatedly has said the transition period will not be extended. I guess we can only take him at his word.

Spanish Eyes

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You asked questions and then they were answered. You then got snotty.

Why ask then if you knew?

Boris repeatedly has said the transition period will not be extended. I guess we can only take him at his word.

Yes Johnson did reiterate that the transition would not be extended. He is a total liar though, with due respect to his illness at the moment. Hope he gets through it.

Who knows what will happen now, I don't do you? But then again I suppose that's what discussion fora are for in a vacuum.

BonnieSituation

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Yes Johnson did reiterate that the transition would not be extended. He is a total liar though, with due respect to his illness at the moment. Hope he gets through it.

Who knows what will happen now, I don't do you? But then again I suppose that's what discussion fora are for in a vacuum.

He may be a known liar, but he's the only authority we have on the matter at present and I guess we'll have to go with it.

---

What vacuum is there?

What sort of discussion are you proposing; maybe one where we decide our own favourite Brexit date and say why?

johnnyskeleton

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

May have been mentioned already, but the blocking of Corona Bonds by certain EU countries sounds worrying to me. So much for the unity of the EU.

Time will tell.

UK might have been correct after all, we are all on our own now anyway.

Mod note:

Just to reiterate, this thread is about Britan leaving the EU and the negotiations etc. By all means start a new thread on the cohesion of the EU or solutions to the debt crisis etc, as long as its within the standards of the charter.

Spanish Eyes

BonnieSituation wrote: »

He may be a known liar, but he's the only authority we have on the matter at present and I guess we'll have to go with it.

---

What vacuum is there?

What sort of discussion are you proposing; maybe one where we decide our own favourite Brexit date and say why?

Well, to be fair there is a vacuum at the moment. Nothing is happening re ending transition or Trade deals etc. and you don't need to be a genius to see why as we speak.

Enzokk

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I see there are a few here who think they know everything.

No wonder the thread has slowed down to a snail's pace. But anyway.

There is no way anyone could think that the EU has been cohesive on this at all. It's every country for itself now. Brexiteers must be delighted with another stick to beat the EU now.

And I am not in the least worried about denigrating responses. Fire away and educate poor old dunce me.

Thread has slowed because Brexit negotiations has slowed down. Once we get closer to the deadline for a extension request it will pick up again. In the mean time there will be drips of stories related to the EU and Brexit, like the coronavirus bonds and the evacuation flights. The interesting thing isn't the lack of cohesion on who is paying for it right now, we have discussed this with Rob on this thread before. The focus now is on saving lives and ensuring all EU participating countries has enough equipment to save individuals. The fight about who will pay for this will come later, and looking at the past it will not be those who made sure there is a nest egg for a situation like this and those that didn't care get a free ride. We or the Greeks didn't get one during the GFC, Italy shouldn't get one now. The discussion about finances will get under way after the worst of the crises is over and much like the EU budget discussion, will not be sorted quickly or easily.

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You asked questions and then they were answered. You then got snotty.

Why ask then if you knew?

Boris repeatedly has said the transition period will not be extended. I guess we can only take him at his word.

Johnson didn't just say it will not be extended, he legislated against it being extended. This means it will take more effort to request a extension and time and debate in the HoC. If the virus causes havoc the UK may be too distracted to make sure this is done properly, seeing as there is only one request and if they screw it up the consequences could be just as severe as the virus.

declanflynn

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Bonnie, I know all this. But you sound as if you have a superiority complex or something.

I realise talks were paused, Barnier had the virus and most of the UK Front Bench are exposed now too. Anyway my point was that going forward, with the virus being rampant now, will the transition period be extended or what?

Good to see I got a lot of you to wake from your somnolent slumber to have a right go at me!

Most people want britian to go asap, so hopefully they dont come begging for an extension, ye will be swallowed up by China in a trade deal and whatever the Chinese dont eat the US will wash with chlorine and munch on, it's going to be such fun old chap

LeinsterDub

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Well, to be fair there is a vacuum at the moment. Nothing is happening re ending transition or Trade deals etc. and you don't need to be a genius to see why as we speak.

Nothing has happened with brexit and that's perfectly fine in your mind but also in your mind you expect the EU to fundamentally change how debt is managed along with basically the the entire structure of the EU?

Enzokk

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

May have been mentioned already, but the blocking of Corona Bonds by certain EU countries sounds worrying to me. So much for the unity of the EU.

Time will tell.

UK might have been correct after all, we are all on our own now anyway.

And it took 2 days for this to happen,

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1248336839498489857?s=20

So it seems like an agreement has been reached at the EU on the ESM and help with the current crises. So the one crises that sprang up with the current crises has been averted while the long term crises will still be ongoing. I suspect the next crises will be agreeing the EU budget or whatever else will be used to test EU unity and the long term prospects of the EU project.

declanflynn

Enzokk wrote: »

And it took 2 days for this to happen,

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1248336839498489857?s=20

So it seems like an agreement has been reached at the EU on the ESM and help with the current crises. So the one crises that sprang up with the current crises has been averted while the long term crises will still be ongoing. I suspect the next crises will be agreeing the EU budget or whatever else will be used to test EU unity and the long term prospects of the EU project.

All those hoping for the EU to break up will not like this news...

Enzokk

In interesting news, post Brexit the UK will forge ahead with their points based immigration system and all those workers they consider as key right now will not be considered as key it seems.

Business bridles at rollout of points-based immigration system

The government is pressing on with releasing guidance for a new points-based immigration system, prompting complaints from business groups that say the coronavirus crisis has made the incoming regime irrelevant.

Firms responded on Thursday to the release of an “introduction for employers” to the system, which is scheduled to replace freedom of movement when the Brexit transition period closes at the end of December.

The new regime, outlined by the government just over a month before Boris Johnson announced a countrywide lockdown, requires prospective migrants to the UK to obtain “points” to qualify for a visa, many of which depend on the applicant being offered a salary of more than £25,600.

Workers classed as low skilled will be largely excluded from entry — excluding many of those who are now classified as key workers in the response to coronavirus, in areas such as retail or social care.

So a couple of things. Seems like it is a use and abuse system in regards to workers they don't really consider key unless there is a death virus running rampant. That is especially mean to me. There really seems to be zero empathy within the UK government to do the right thing.

Secondly, and related somewhat to the first point, they have shut down parliament for almost a month at a time of crises where questions should be asked on the response of the government. But somehow they have gotten away with going into recess early and also not recalling parliament in a time of crises. It amazes me that more is not made of this and if I were an EU immigrant in the UK I would be afraid of what this government will do once Brexit happens and how much they will try to escape scrutiny.

declanflynn

declanflynn wrote: »

All those hoping for the EU to break up will not like this news...

Until the next financial crisis, anyway it does show that when the stakes are high, deals can be quickly made.


Same will be true of the Brexit negotiations at the end of the year.

Professor Moriarty

Enzokk wrote: »

And it took 2 days for this to happen,

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1248336839498489857?s=20

So it seems like an agreement has been reached at the EU on the ESM and help with the current crises. So the one crises that sprang up with the current crises has been averted while the long term crises will still be ongoing. I suspect the next crises will be agreeing the EU budget or whatever else will be used to test EU unity and the long term prospects of the EU project.

If I were Italy, Spain, Portugal, Greece etc. I would be clinging to the EU for dear life. In the long term, they will want to rebuild their tourist industries.

declanflynn

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

May have been mentioned already, but the blocking of Corona Bonds by certain EU countries sounds worrying to me. So much for the unity of the EU.

Time will tell.

UK might have been correct after all, we are all on our own now anyway.

Germany now sending ventilators to the UK, that will really stick in the throat of brexiteers with the coronavirus

declanflynn

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Calm down everyone I just made a post on something that I think is relevant.

No one responded about the lack of cohesion within the EU, and the fact that certain countries are totally opposed.

Whatever about alternatives, they could have tried to present a united front even for the optics of it.

that's been sorted this morning

Professor Moriarty

declanflynn wrote: »

Germany now sending ventilators to the UK, that will really stick in the throat of brexiteers with the coronavirus

Literally and figuratively.

Capt'n Midnight

Enzokk wrote: »

Seems like it is a use and abuse system in regards to workers

Yes, very much so. Domestic and Foreign. It's just that the locals have votes. The "go home office" targeting people who weren't economically productive shows the use and abuse attitude. Have a big pension and spending, yeah you can stay. Otherwise please go back to wherever you came from when you retire or contract ends.

Secondly, and related somewhat to the first point, they have shut down parliament for almost a month at a time of crises where questions should be asked on the response of the government. But somehow they have gotten away with going into recess early and also not recalling parliament in a time of crises. It amazes me that more is not made of this and if I were an EU immigrant in the UK I would be afraid of what this government will do once Brexit happens and how much they will try to escape scrutiny.

Lemming wrote: »

The current crop in government circles have set a depressingly low threshold for dishonesty.

Home Secretary Priti Patel has repeatedly refused to appear in front of the Home Affairs select committee to discuss the coronavirus outbreak.

Ms Patel instead said she would only appear “towards the end of the month”.

This at a time when police have been given temporary powers to enforce the lockdown that's preventing thousands of deaths.