Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)

Enzokk

reslfj wrote: »

What does Gove and HMG not understand in the "Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland" (part of the agreed and ratified WA) ?



Most of the checks are expected in Belfast or in Larne - AFAIK.

Lars

He does confirm this, but he seems to think it will be an EU Embassy in Belfast and that is why they are denying it. He also wanted to reiterate that UK officials will be doing the checks. I guess this is all part of the negotiations, about seeming to give in on this and expecting the EU to give in on something else, in the expectation that this was actually a compromise from the UK when it is nothing less than what the UK agreed to themselves.

weemcd

Enzokk wrote: »

He does confirm this, but he seems to think it will be an EU Embassy in Belfast and that is why they are denying it. He also wanted to reiterate that UK officials will be doing the checks. I guess this is all part of the negotiations, about seeming to give in on this and expecting the EU to give in on something else, in the expectation that this was actually a compromise from the UK when it is nothing less than what the UK agreed to themselves.

I think you may be right, Gove and Co. are full of pointless little gambits like this, trying to rack up points for clout or something equally as moronic.

Leroy42

But isn't it a bit odd that the UK are even looking to block an EU embassy at all? There are embasseys from Iran and Saudi Arabia for example for an additional one from the EU is a step too far.

Is it usual that companies are refused embasseys in the UK? What is the criteria?

Peregrinus

Leroy42 wrote: »

But isn't it a bit odd that the UK are even looking to block an EU embassy at all? There are embasseys from Iran and Saudi Arabia for example for an additional one from the EU is a step too far.

Is it usual that companies are refused embasseys in the UK? What is the criteria?

There's an EU Delegation (EU-speak for an Embassy) in London right now, and no plans to discontinue or close it. Similarly the UK has a Mission to the EU in Brussels, headed by an Ambassador.

What the UK is objecting to is an EU office in Belfast.

Enzokk

Peregrinus wrote: »

There's an EU Delegation (EU-speak for an Embassy) in London right now, and no plans to discontinue or close it. Similarly the UK has a Mission to the EU in Brussels, headed by an Ambassador.

What the UK is objecting to is an EU office in Belfast.

To pedantic, what they are objecting to is an EU Embassy in Belfast. There has been no indication that the EU office would offer any services that constitute it being named an embassy.

Peregrinus

Enzokk wrote: »

To pedantic, what they are objecting to is an EU Embassy in Belfast. There has been no indication that the EU office would offer any services that constitute it being named an embassy.

To be even more pedantic, what the UK is objecting to is " the permanent EU presence based in Belfast which you propose". Gove attempts to justify this objection by characterising the "permanent EU presence" as a "mini-embassy", which suggests either that he has no idea what an embassy does, or he has no idea what an EU office in Belfast would do.

Enzokk

Enzokk wrote: »

To pedantic, what they are objecting to is an EU Embassy in Belfast.

Belfast is not the capital of the UK so it cannot have an embassy, anyway, It's just political bollocks as at most it could be is a trade mission/consulate.

Leroy42

I get why and what they are objecting to, but on what grounds?

Surely having an EU presence in NI is not being seen as a threat or something.

Seems very odd to refuse when trying to increase cooperation and relationships.

Quin_Dub

Leroy42 wrote: »

I get why and what they are objecting to, but on what grounds?

Surely having an EU presence in NI is not being seen as a threat or something.

Seems very odd to refuse when trying to increase cooperation and relationships.

Does the EU have Embassies though?

Could Ireland for example open an office there rather than the EU?

I mean , lots of countries have offices in multiple cities across countries to facilitate peoples access.

Nody

Leroy42 wrote: »

I get why and what they are objecting to, but on what grounds?

Surely having an EU presence in NI is not being seen as a threat or something.

Seems very odd to refuse when trying to increase cooperation and relationships.

For the same reason Trump can't accept anything that Obama did; signal politics. They have be seen as "true brexiteers" but in reality it's meaningless because the office can be placed in Ireland and they drive up there every day.

fly_agaric

Enzokk wrote: »

So I am left wondering what the game is here?

With withdrawal agreement I believe they will try & interpret it "creatively" (ignore parts they don't like, twist as much as they can) and just dare the EU to try & do anything about it.

As others suggest, mentioning Trump etc, it seems to be the style among right wing politicians now and I think the current "Conservatives" in the UK are a part of the global movement. Their supporters lap it up. Always chance your arm, lie, cheat, bully when possible and see if you get pulled up on it/if someone is able to stop you.

CrabRevolution

Leroy42 wrote: »

I get why and what they are objecting to, but on what grounds?

Surely having an EU presence in NI is not being seen as a threat or something.

Seems very odd to refuse when trying to increase cooperation and relationships.

As was said above, you're looking at it from too logical, reasonable and co-operative a perspective. One that just doesn't win votes in the UK at the moment.

It's the same with stories of how the UKs post Brexit policies have made it difficult and costly even for skilled, valuable, well established immigrants to stay in the UK. To any logical observer this would be a bad thing. But to a brexit supporter, any foreigner having a hard time staying in the UK is music to their ears.

Likewise for the EU office in Belfast. The UK have signed up to an agreement that gives the EU an influence in NI affairs. On top of this the EU is their closest neighbour, largest trading partner, and will play an enormous part in the UKs future no matter what. Again it seems logical that the EU having a small presence in Belfast could help relations at pretty much no cost politically or financially to the UK.

No. The cheers (and votes) of hardcore brexiters when they see the UK sticking it to the EU are more important.

Peregrinus

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Does the EU have Embassies though?

Yes.

Formally, they are called "Missions" or "Delegations", in much the way that UK embassies to Commonwealth countries are called "High Commissions". But the terminology is irrelevant; functionally they are embassies, they have the status of embassies, they are treated by host countries as embassies, etc.

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Could Ireland for example open an office there rather than the EU?

Yes, but (a) this too would require the permission of the UK government; (b) surely an Irlgov office in Belfast would be much more politically explosive, in the NI context, than an EU office?; and (c) Ireland has no role in the supervision of the implementation by the UK of its commitments under the Withdrawal Agreement; that's an EU competence.

Quin_Dub wrote: »

I mean , lots of countries have offices in multiple cities across countries to facilitate peoples access.

Yes, though the EU typically doesn't have multiple offices in non-Member States. The only exception is China, where the EU has a Delegation in Beijing and an Office in Hong Kong.

RobMc59

Peregrinus wrote: »

Yes.

Formally, they are called "Missions" or "Delegations", in much the way that UK embassies to Commonwealth countries are called "High Commissions". But the terminology is irrelevant; functionally they are embassies, they have the status of embassies, they are treated by host countries as embassies, etc.


Yes, but (a) this too would require the permission of the UK government; (b) surely an Irlgov office in Belfast would be much more politically explosive, in the NI context, than an EU office?; and (c) Ireland has no role in the supervision of the implementation by the UK of its commitments under the Withdrawal Agreement; that's an EU competence.


Yes, though the EU typically doesn't have multiple offices in non-Member States. The only exception is China, where the EU has a Delegation in Beijing and an Office in Hong Kong.

As you say ,an application in the wrong place could cause problems as it may be a magnet for trouble although in the right place could be a propaganda coup for Ireland

Gerry T

Tell me how wrote: »

UK priorities

Blue Passports > Economy > health of society

RobMc59 wrote: »

As you say ,an application in the wrong place could cause problems as it may be a magnet for trouble although in the right place could be a propaganda coup for Ireland

I'm sure the EU couldn't care less what the office was called, they would humour the UK politicians so they could play to their domestic audience.
Sad that the UK would so quickly and needlessly reject something of this nature so that they can show "strength" against the EU, when this goes against the best interest of the UK in securing a close future trade deal.
You would think the UK would save their battles to matters where a "win" would bring some benefit to the UK economy.

Kermit.de.frog

Peregrinus wrote: »

(c) Ireland has no role in the supervision of the implementation by the UK of its commitments under the Withdrawal Agreement; that's an EU competence.

Ireland is a member country of the EU - so yes it does.

Also it will be Irish officials doing the checks on compliance.

They won't be flying continentals over!

Peregrinus

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Ireland is a member country of the EU - so yes it does.

Also it will be Irish officials doing the checks on compliance.

They won't be flying continentals over!

Ireland is a member of the EU but nevertheless Ireland and the EU are distinct entities. The EU institutions cannot peform the functions of the Irish government, and the Irish government agencies cannot perform the functions of the EU. Under Article 12 of the Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland, it's "Union representatives" who have the right to be present and whose presence the UK government must facilitate. Officials of the Irish government are not "Union representatives" they represent Ireland.

Individually, the people involved may or may not have Irish nationality. For obvious reasons, it's a general rule in the Commission service that there is no discrimination amongst staff on the basis of nationality. But of course the staff members likely to be interested in this particular gig, and to apply for it, are going to be disproportionately of Irish (or UK) nationality. But the Commission will not discriminate between Irish and other applicants; if there is a Belfast office, and staff posted there, a candidate from Athens will receive the same consideration as a candidate from Athenry.

Enzokk

Things are moving a bit quicker now on the Brexit front, Tony Connelly is tweeting more with some interesting information.

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1255906991136006145?s=20

He has corrected this to say that talks need to start by 1 June at the latest to ensure a smooth implementation by the 1st January.

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1255906993958764545?s=20

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1255906996768956417?s=20

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1255906999323287552?s=20

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1255907002464841728?s=20

So this embassy/office debacle seems set to run and run. I am a little concerned that the UK sees the EU needs in NI as something similar to running audits only where they have people flying in and out only. This seems to indicate a lackadaisical approach they seem to want to take towards what is the biggest issue from their whole decision. Also, why would an EU office be a problem in a country that voted to remain my majority? Majority means they have spoken and the losers should just shut up and accept, right? So the majority would be more than okay with an EU presence in NI.

Enzokk

And a response from the UK,

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1255965806413918208?s=20

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1255965818036387840?s=20

It seems clear that the UK wants to sort out the details of the EU office/their checks that the protocol will be implemented properly should be sorted by the Joint Committee and not by these discussions.

Gerry T

Enzokk wrote: »

..
It seems clear that the UK wants to sort out the details of the EU office/their checks that the protocol will be implemented properly should be sorted by the Joint Committee and not by these discussions.

Sorry I'm being a bit thick here, but what discussions other than the joint committee are going on. Thought since Feb that was all that was happening.

Enzokk

Gerry T wrote: »

Sorry I'm being a bit thick here, but what discussions other than the joint committee are going on. Thought since Feb that was all that was happening.

The FTA negotiations are separate to the Joint Committee.

Statement by the European Commission following the first meeting of the EU-UK Joint Committee

Today, the European Union and the United Kingdom held their first Joint Committee meeting on the implementation and application of the Withdrawal Agreement, by means of teleconference. The Joint Committee is co-chaired by European Commission Vice-President Maroš Šefčovič and the UK Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster Michael Gove. The discussion took place in a constructive and productive atmosphere.

The discussions around the EU Office has been happening with the talks between Barnier and Frost I think. That is how I see it, but it seems like it can get a little confusing as there seems to be a few talks happening at the same time.

Enzokk

More detail from Tony Connelly on the EU Office. As could have been predicted, it is a mess.

UK told EU it wanted to maintain EU office in Belfast last year

The UK told the EU in February of last year it wished to maintain an EU office in Belfast after Brexit, RTÉ News has learned.

The request was made in an exchange of letters between the British Foreign Office and the EU's diplomatic service.

The UK position 14 months ago, as reflected in the correspondence, is in sharp contrast to the flat rejection of an EU office in Belfast under Boris Johnson's government.

In one letter, the UK expressed the wish for the EU to keep offices in Belfast, as well as in Edinburgh, Cardiff and London.

The letters were exchanged between Simon McDonald, the Permanent Secretary to the Foreign Office, and Helga Schmid, the Secretary-General of the European Union External Action Service (EEAS).

So basically the EU and UK were already discussing this office back in February 2019. The UK was open to the idea of the office, including ones in the other 3 nations as well. When the issue was brought up again this year the same official refused the request.

So when the issue was brought up at the Joint Committee stage the UK was taken by surprise by the request apparently.

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1256463754541387776?s=20

So add this to the other examples on why this UK Government should not be trusted to uphold anything. I can sort of imagine the Michael Gove performance when the issue is raised at the meeting. The confused looks around and trying to seem perplexed that the EU would drop this bombshell on the UK about having an office.

Enzokk

So this story just keeps on rolling with new information,

Row over EU office in Belfast threatens to derail Brexit talks

The Irish border question threatens to derail Brexit talks again as the depth of the row over the EU’s desire to have an office in Belfast is revealed.

The UK’s paymaster general, Penny Mordaunt, has written to the EU to firmly reject a repeated request for an office in Northern Ireland: “The UK cannot agree to the permanent EU presence based in Belfast,” she wrote.

Mordaunt was responding to a second request this year from the EU for permission to open an office in Belfast on the grounds it was needed to oversee the implementation of new customs and regulatory checks that will apply to trade between Great Britain and Northern Ireland from next year.

I have another link exploring the issue, An EU presence in Northern Ireland after Brexit, that looks at the issue without politics. This just sets out where we seemed to be, before the whole saga was reported on by the media.

The final paragraphs seem to sum this up,

When it comes to deciding how the Protocol is operationalised, there is a risk that Northern Ireland is viewed by both sides in reductive terms – as a ‘backdoor’ or ‘bargaining chip’ – and thus that they become dangerously blind to why such a compromise was needed in the first place.

For better or worse, the decision as to the details of a future EU presence in Northern Ireland constitutes one of the first tests of goodwill and sensibility from both sides of the post-Brexit UK-EU relationship.

Within the Guardian link there is a tweet from Raoul Ruparel contradicting the reporting as he sees it from Tony Connelly. He has a thread of tweets explaining how he saw the situation at the time,

https://twitter.com/RaoulRuparel/status/1256517631580004353?s=20

Tony Connelly then responds to his thread,

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1256579425036046336?s=20

It makes for interesting reading and I think it is worth the time to go through it all. There is a reply from Raoul Raparel to Tony Connelly linked below as well,

https://twitter.com/RaoulRuparel/status/1256588902359601152?s=20

So, TLDR, from what I can see is that the EU was sending out the message that the denial of an office from the UK because this was a sudden request is a distortion of the facts at best. They have been discussing this office since February 2019 when they were discussing May's deal.

The response from someone involved in those discussions are that those discussions were not related as they were to do with a different type of office as the deal they were trying to wrangle through parliament was different than the one agreed now. Remember May's deal had the whole of the UK in the customs union if the FTA didn't provide for a solution that meets the criteria of no checks.

But, how do they think the EU was comfortable with a presence in NI with May's deal when there would have been less checks but this new deal that means a border in the Irish Sea would mean the EU now will not have an office or presence in Belfast? I can see the point that the office they agreed to in February was not the same one as being asked for now, as the duties carried out will be different, but the new deal makes it more essential for the EU to have that presence due to the deal Johnson signed.

It seems that we have a problem here. Johnson promised no new checks or documents between NI and the UK, but we know that is not possible with the deal he signed. The EU needs a presence to ensure the NI Protocol works as other EU countries will want to ensure the integrity of the EU Single Market is maintained.

Leroy42

Did the UK point this out to the EU at the time of signing the WA. Because me reading of it is tht they agreed, in principle to it and now they are saying that the deal changed so it was off the table.

But the EU were well within their right to assume (and this is where the problem lies I suppose) that since the UK did not specifically ask for this to be discussed again (remember reopening the WA!) then it was accepted.

It would seem to me that the UK either forgot that they had agreed or didn't understand what they had agreed to. Either way it is bad faith on their part to act they are now.

RobMc59

Enzokk wrote: »

More detail from Tony Connelly on the EU Office. As could have been predicted, it is a mess.

UK told EU it wanted to maintain EU office in Belfast last year



So basically the EU and UK were already discussing this office back in February 2019. The UK was open to the idea of the office, including ones in the other 3 nations as well. When the issue was brought up again this year the same official refused the request.

So when the issue was brought up at the Joint Committee stage the UK was taken by surprise by the request apparently.

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1256463754541387776?s=20

So add this to the other examples on why this UK Government should not be trusted to uphold anything. I can sort of imagine the Michael Gove performance when the issue is raised at the meeting. The confused looks around and trying to seem perplexed that the EU would drop this bombshell on the UK about having an office.

It`s reasonable to want an EU office in NI but I don`t think it should be a major bone of contention for either side. The EU stamping it`s feet because the UK won`t immediately comply plays right into hard brexiteers hands whose manipulative ways will use that to sow further discord.

Sam Russell

RobMc59 wrote: »

It`s reasonable to want an EU office in NI but I don`t think it should be a major bone of contention for either side. The EU stamping it`s feet because the UK won`t immediately comply plays right into hard brexiteers hands whose manipulative ways will use that to sow further discord.

I would take the opposite view.

The Brexiteers are deliberately making an issue of something that clearly should already be agreed to try and get a chip to bargain with, assuming the EU are open to bargaining.

I doubt that the EU will let this go.

Leroy42

RobMc59 wrote: »

It`s reasonable to want an EU office in NI but I don`t think it should be a major bone of contention for either side. The EU stamping it`s feet because the UK won`t immediately comply plays right into hard brexiteers hands whose manipulative ways will use that to sow further discord.

One thing I think we can all agree on is that it really doesn't matter what the EU do the brexiteers will wail and moan. Either they are a belligerent undemocratic power throwing their weight around and dismissing the will of UK democracy or they are falling apart and ripe to be taken to the cleaners.

One thing for certain is that at no point will they even question their own government on why the let the EU even think this was feasable, and why Johnson didn't make this clear when signing his oven ready deal.

Leroy42

Sam Russell wrote: »

I would take the opposite view.

The Brexiteers are deliberately making an issue of something that clearly should already be agreed to try and get a chip to bargain with, assuming the EU are open to bargaining.

I doubt that the EU will let this go.

I can't see how they could. They whole point of the WA is that both sides agreed to compromise and work together to take account of the unique situation of NI.

Are HMG really making the argument that the DUP are perfectly fine with having been separated from the UK in terms of trade law, that the UK is now responsible for ensuring that NI continues to abide by all current and future EU laws, but that they will freak out if there is an actual office in the country?

Enzokk

Sam Russell wrote: »

I would take the opposite view.

The Brexiteers are deliberately making an issue of something that clearly should already be agreed to try and get a chip to bargain with, assuming the EU are open to bargaining.

I doubt that the EU will let this go.

This will be important for the EU, too important to let go I feel. The UK will see this as a chance to get a leg up. This could derail and lead to both sides not trusting each other for the FTA negotiations that will follow, whenever that happens (post transition or during the extension).

RobMc59

Leroy42 wrote: »

I can't see how they could. They whole point of the WA is that both sides agreed to compromise and work together to take account of the unique situation of NI.

Are HMG really making the argument that the DUP are perfectly fine with having been separated from the UK in terms of trade law, that the UK is now responsible for ensuring that NI continues to abide by all current and future EU laws, but that they will freak out if there is an actual office in the country?

As a British person I`m embarrassed the UK is being so churlish over such a minor thing,I don`t like the way SF are milking the virus situation for their own ends but do feel there needs to be a close working relationship between the UK/Ireland and EU in regards to NI.