Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)

Enzokk

If anyone is interested in be really frustrated Michael Gove will get to spin and deceive later today in front of the, Committee on the Future Relationship with the European Union, in parliament at 1pm.

I suspect this will be a sideshow for the media as they will be focused on the Cummings story and Johnson finally appearing in front of the Liaison Committee at 4pm.

Video Link

I see that France are now playing the "bring jobs home" game, in reality, they've always played that game by putting obstacles in the way of importers, sufficient to impair imports without breaking EU rules.
The very same things the UK are trying to achieve after Brexit.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-52814074
The French government has announced an €8bn (£7.1bn) rescue plan for its car industry, which has been severely impacted by the coronavirus pandemic.
President Emmanuel Macron's proposal includes €1bn to provide grants of up to €7,000 to encourage citizens to purchase electric vehicles.
It also puts money toward investments to make France a centre for electric vehicle output.

The plan comes as the industry braces for thousands of job cuts.
In return for the relief, the two main French car producers Renault and PSA have promised to focus production in France.

"We need a motivational goal - make France Europe's top producer of clean vehicles by bringing output to more than one million electric and hybrid cars per year over the next five years," President Macron told reporters at a press conference at the Valeo car factory in Etaples, northern France on Tuesday.

BonnieSituation

Deleted User wrote: »

I see that France are now playing the "bring jobs home" game, in reality, they've always played that game by putting obstacles in the way of importers, sufficient to impair imports without breaking EU rules.
The very same things the UK are trying to achieve after Brexit.

So?

The UK isn't in the EU anymore. A strong French automotive industry is in Ireland's interests.

Professor Moriarty

Deleted User wrote: »

I see that France are now playing the "bring jobs home" game, in reality, they've always played that game by putting obstacles in the way of importers, sufficient to impair imports without breaking EU rules.
The very same things the UK are trying to achieve after Brexit.

Well, it can't be the very same thing as the UK will be outside the EU. Also, why would you have a problem with France trying to protect its car industry within the rules of the EU? It's not like Ireland can point the finger when it comes to playing by the rules while protecting your economy.

Just out of interest the company referenced above Valeo have an R&D centre in Tuam Co. Galway.
I used to see their test cars on the road but haven't recently. They employ 1,000 people in assembly and not just R&D.

Hopefully we don't suffer from the plan.

ancapailldorcha

Deleted User wrote: »

I see that France are now playing the "bring jobs home" game, in reality, they've always played that game by putting obstacles in the way of importers, sufficient to impair imports without breaking EU rules.
The very same things the UK are trying to achieve after Brexit.

Jobs going to the EU can only be a good thing. As far as I can tell the only benefit to car manufacturers from staying in a no deal Brexited UK is a potential perception of regained sovereignty. I can't see that standing against tariffs, non tariff barriers and disrupted supply chains.

BonnieSituation

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Jobs going to the EU can only be a good thing. As far as I can tell the only benefit to car manufacturers from staying in a no deal Brexited UK is a potential perception of regained sovereignty. I can't see that standing against tariffs, non tariff barriers and disrupted supply chains.

I just think it's interesting that that post above screams "How dare France do the thing that the UK wants to do. No fair!"

BonnieSituation

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I just think it's interesting that that post above screams "How dare France do the thing that the UK wants to do. No fair!"

It highlights the fact that Nationalism is alive and kicking in EU countries as well as the UK, if push came to shove, France will pull jobs away from another EU country.

listermint

Deleted User wrote: »

It highlights the fact that Nationalism is alive and kicking in EU countries as well as the UK, if push came to shove, France will pull jobs away from another EU country.

I think it more highlights the Anti EU rhetoric which some posters subscribe to all the while enjoying all the benefits our membership has bestowed them.


There is an interesting case study in psychology there.

ancapailldorcha

Deleted User wrote: »

It highlights the fact that Nationalism is alive and kicking in EU countries as well as the UK, if push came to shove, France will pull jobs away from another EU country.

So nationalism is only bad when it's observed in EU member states but completely virtuous in the case of the UK and US? What is your point here?

First Up

Deleted User wrote: »

It highlights the fact that Nationalism is alive and kicking in EU countries as well as the UK, if push came to shove, France will pull jobs away from another EU country.

Which jobs will France be able to to "pull" from other countries? Do you think the French government can order private companies to close their international operations?

First Up

First Up wrote: »

Which jobs will France be able to to "pull" from other countries? Do you think the French government can order private companies to close their international operations?

They don't actually need to "pull" jobs as such, but by not buying imports and increasing their own manufacturing base they replace foreign jobs with French jobs.

BonnieSituation

Deleted User wrote: »

They don't actually need to "pull" jobs as such, but by not buying imports and increasing their own manufacturing base they replace foreign jobs with French jobs.

So you're getting testy about a hypothetical?

Joe_ Public

Not necessarily taking issue with the original post, but doesn't this just highlight the impossible contradiction at the heart of hardcore brexit ideology?

Too much cooperation and alignment and its look at the big bad European superstate.

Then when they behave as individuals, as happened a bit with ppe, it's oh look at them looking after no.1.

Never any sensible middle ground it often seems. Cant see any issue with macron looking out for industry and any initiative that promotes green economy and cleaner environment gets a thumbs up from me.

CrabRevolution

Deleted User wrote: »

They don't actually need to "pull" jobs as such, but by not buying imports and increasing their own manufacturing base they replace foreign jobs with French jobs.

The EU can't win on this though when it comes to criticism such as yours.

The EU don't have rules or authority to stop countries trying to maximise jobs in their countries; according to you this is a bad thing.

But if the EU did have rules or authority to stop countries trying to maximise jobs in their countries, you'd also be saying this is a bad thing.

It's the paradoxical "The EU is too strong and interferes in too many areas, yet is simultaneously weak and isn't doing enough" argument brexiters use.

First Up

Deleted User wrote:

They don't actually need to "pull" jobs as such, but by not buying imports and increasing their own manufacturing base they replace foreign jobs with French jobs.

So they just order French companies and people who to buy from?

How does that work?

J Mysterio

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It highlights the fact that Nationalism is alive and kicking in EU countries as well as the UK, if push came to shove, France will pull jobs away from another EU country.

They are tying to stimulate their economy and car manufacturing industry.

What the hell are you talking about at all? I think you have confused yourself.

Lemming

Deleted User wrote: »

They don't actually need to "pull" jobs as such, but by not buying imports and increasing their own manufacturing base they replace foreign jobs with French jobs.

First Up wrote: »

So they just order French companies and people who to buy from?

How does that work?

"Buy guaranteed Irish".

CelticRambler

Deleted User wrote: »

I see that France are now playing the "bring jobs home" game, in reality, they've always played that game by putting obstacles in the way of importers, sufficient to impair imports without breaking EU rules.

This was extensively discussed here (in France) on the radio last weekend in the context of Renault's looming financial difficulties. The consensus from all contributors was that pumping money into electric vehicles won't bring any jobs "home" because we Europeans don't own the most important part of any EV - the battery, and the (lack of) availability of batteries will severely hamper development of the industry. Putting up more barriers for the sake of national self-interest will only hand an advantage to countries/companies that don't engage in such silliness.

On that point, there's an outside chance that the UK might manage to outmanoeuvre the French, if they were to invest in - and succeed in - the development of fuel-cell technology. But, of course, they risk scuppering their best opportunity to conquer the French by shutting themselves out of the EU.

Joe_ Public

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Never any sensible middle ground it often seems. Cant see any issue with macron looking out for industry and any initiative that promotes green economy and cleaner environment gets a thumbs up from me.

Yes, Electric vehicles are the future( and now).

I agree, most countries really do need to ensure that they don't outsource vital industry as we have seen that to do so risks there being shortages in times of crisis.
Too much consolidation of manufacturing in one country is dangerous, we know that smaller countries are not able to have all the industries so would need to cooperate with their neighbours, but larger countries with large populations do not need to do this and have the capacity to support such industries and the component suppliers can also be local.

J Mysterio

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yes, Electric vehicles are the future( and now).

I agree, most countries really do need to ensure that they don't outsource vital industry as we have seen that to do so risks there being shortages in times of crisis.
Too much consolidation of manufacturing in one country is dangerous, we know that smaller countries are not able to have all the industries so would need to cooperate with their neighbours, but larger countries with large populations do not need to do this and have the capacity to support such industries and the component suppliers can also be local.

You must be taking the piss.

So.. do you... Want to work together? Maybe we should form some sort of political union with a single market for trade?

First Up

Lemming wrote:

"Buy guaranteed Irish".

That's an advertising campaign from a private company, not a government edict.

First Up

First Up wrote: »

That's an advertising campaign from a private company, not a government edict.

Has the same affect though, people think about whether to buy Irish or from somewhere else. It reminds people that they should support locally produced products.

J Mysterio

They are still busy lying in the UK media.
Is there no media watchdog to hold them to task? Should the Express not be forced to print a retraction/ correction to this disinformation?

https://twitter.com/FullFact/status/1265518092915884032

Lemming

First Up wrote: »

That's an advertising campaign from a private company, not a government edict.

You're right, but it has tacit government support. The point I was making was that the notion of encouraging local [read "national"] business instead of international business is nothing new.

I don't see anyone jumping up and down in faux outrage at either the message or successive Irish governments backing the message over the last few decades, and it seems a little bit hypocritical to criticise the French (or anyone else) from doing the same within the confines of what is permissible within single-market regulation.

J Mysterio

Cat among the pigeons

https://twitter.com/thistlejohn/status/1265605476638756864

First Up

Lemming wrote:

You're right, but it has tacit government support. The point I was making was that the notion of encouraging local [read "national"] business instead of international business is nothing new.

Government support or approval isn't remotely the same as "pulling" companies out of countries or ordering the stoppage of the purchase of foreign goods.

ambro25

J Mysterio wrote: »

Cat among the pigeons

https://twitter.com/thistlejohn/status/1265605476638756864

I wouldn't call it that, because as Barnier writes there, this position of the EU welcoming an extension isn't new. At all.

The core political problem remains, again as written in there, 'mutual' in 'mutually agreed extension' and, lest one overlooks it, the UK's financial contribution to the EU coffers for that extended duration.

We're not in £-ditching, €-adopting levels of political upheaval, here, sure. But that's still ERG/Johnson+Cabinet kryptonite territory all the same.

J Mysterio

Yes, but this is essentially a letter to MPs more generally (or the opposition if you will) and not to the Tories, or government.

Enzokk

Frost and Gove in front of the parliament committee now, Frost is solely in charge of the negotiations where before it was a civil servant and a minister who was leading this. Now it is a special advisor who is leading this all and he reports to the PM and if he needs advice or guidance it seems like he speaks to the PM.

So Dominic Cummings is in charge or the Brexit negotiations via David Frost.